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    Aero up front-how deep?

    I've seen some threads about using a HED3 up front on a tandem. It looks okay from what I gather. But, may ride a little too harsh for longer rides. Also, I would be a bit leery about jamming it through a high speed turn on a tandem.

    I am planning on building up a set of aero wheels for our new tandem. I was wondering if anybody out there is using deep carbon on the front, and how deep can you go with a tandem? I'm leaning towards a Stinger 9 for the rear. Can I safely go with a stinger 6 or 7 on the front?

    BTW- I will have a disc brake option on the rear hub for the hills. Don't want to melt the wheels.

    Thanks for any input.

    RP

  2. #2
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    If you go with too deep a dish you have to worry about the spoke angle on a wider hub. What width hub do you have on your tandem? That (of course) is mostly an issue with the rear wheel. An engineer at Zipp told me that the optimum combination for strength and aero for my Calfee would be a 505 or 404 rim. I believe merlinextraligh uses a Zipp 1080 rim. I'm sure he'll pop in and give his review of them. You might want to look at Edge wheels too. Ritterview has had some luck with them.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    If you go with too deep a dish you have to worry about the spoke angle on a wider hub. What width hub do you have on your tandem? That (of course) is mostly an issue with the rear wheel. An engineer at Zipp told me that the optimum combination for strength and aero for my Calfee would be a 505 or 404 rim. I believe merlinextraligh uses a Zipp 1080 rim. I'm sure he'll pop in and give his review of them. You might want to look at Edge wheels too. Ritterview has had some luck with them.
    Good point about rear hub width. Our tandem is being built with 130mm rear wheel spacing. So, this may be good for a deep wheel.

    RP

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    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamptandem View Post
    BTW- I will have a disc brake option on the rear hub for the hills.

    Our tandem is being built with 130mm rear wheel spacing.
    What 130 mm disc rear hub are you planning to use? Velocity? The choices are slim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    What 130 mm disc rear hub are you planning to use? Velocity? The choices are slim.
    Both Chris King and Phil Wood offer a tandem specific hub with a 130mm option. Also, I hear that a DT Swiss MTB hub can be used by just changing the spacers on the hub. I have not been able to confirm this yet.

    Right now, I'm leaning toward the Chris King, for weight, and price.

    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    If you go with too deep a dish you have to worry about the spoke angle on a wider hub. What width hub do you have on your tandem? That (of course) is mostly an issue with the rear wheel. An engineer at Zipp told me that the optimum combination for strength and aero for my Calfee would be a 505 or 404 rim. I believe merlinextraligh uses a Zipp 1080 rim. I'm sure he'll pop in and give his review of them. You might want to look at Edge wheels too. Ritterview has had some luck with them.
    Homey, what width hub are you running on your Calfee?

  7. #7
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    If you go with too deep a dish you have to worry about the spoke angle on a wider hub. What width hub do you have on your tandem? That (of course) is mostly an issue with the rear wheel. An engineer at Zipp told me that the optimum combination for strength and aero for my Calfee would be a 505 or 404 rim. I believe merlinextraligh uses a Zipp 1080 rim. I'm sure he'll pop in and give his review of them. You might want to look at Edge wheels too. Ritterview has had some luck with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by swamptandem View Post
    Good point about rear hub width. Our tandem is being built with 130mm rear wheel spacing. So, this may be good for a deep wheel.

    RP
    Our wheels are 520 rims (the Zipp 808 rim) on 145mm spacing.

    Zipp doesn't warrant them, and doesn't recommend this usage due to the spoke angle.

    We've broken a couple of spokes in a few thousand miles of riding. Other than that they've worked fine.

    the good news is that the rim is sufficiently sturdy that the wheel was still relatively true and rideable 2 spokes down.

    Since we've replaced the 2 spokes we haven't had further problems, but we're not using the wheels on an every day basis anymore.

    We've also time trialed with a HED3 front. It worked fine, but I wouldn't want to ride that wheel on a regular basis, given the ride feel.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
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  8. #8
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    On a tangent, where are you planning on doing most of your riding? There's nothing anywhere in Florida that needs a disc brake.

    Northern Georgia is manageable without a disc brake.

    If you're going to be doing a steady diet on long twisty descents, I can see the case for the disc, but if most of your riding is around here, I would skip the disc.

    My take on disc brakes FWIW

    http://everestchallengex2.blogspot.c...1_archive.html
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    On a tangent, where are you planning on doing most of your riding? There's nothing anywhere in Florida that needs a disc brake.

    Northern Georgia is manageable without a disc brake.

    If you're going to be doing a steady diet on long twisty descents, I can see the case for the disc, but if most of your riding is around here, I would skip the disc.

    My take on disc brakes FWIW

    http://everestchallengex2.blogspot.c...1_archive.html
    Most of our tandem riding will be in your back yard my friend. You know who we are :-)

    The rear disc will only be on the bike when we do travel to the hills. The rims brakes will always be on the bike. I want the rear disc because we will have some carbon rims when we do the hilly events. I don't want to overheat the carbon rims. And, if it happens to rain, the disc will help out.

    "How" you say, will I operate three brakes at one time? The rear disc will be a hydraulic brake operated by my very capable stoker wife. Think of it as a modern "drag brake".

    Hope you had a race this weekend merlinextraligh

    Rick

  10. #10
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    ^ Sounds like a reasonable plan. We had our frame built to use a rear disc, so we can add it if we need it, but so far haven't felt the need.


    6th in the Nocatee RR this weekend.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    ^ Sounds like a reasonable plan. We had our frame built to use a rear disc, so we can add it if we need it, but so far haven't felt the need.


    6th in the Nocatee RR this weekend.
    Congrats! Good job!

    Looking forward to catching up you on the road and talking tandems. It will be 2-3 months before we're actually riding our tandem.

  12. #12
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    You might want to look at Edge wheels too. Ritterview has had some luck with them.
    Yes, I really like my Edge (now ENVE) wheels thus far. I just got them back from a warranty repair (a violent and sudden pinch flat tire deflation caused the rim to abrade and the carbon surface to peel). ENVE could have called it a 'crash', but didn't.

    The deep clincher rim (65 mm) wasn't selected over ENVE's 45 mm alternative for aero, but rather to fortify the wheels which are limited 28 spokes. The ENVE spoke holes are famously molded rather than drilled, and you don't want to molest your rim by drilling new holes.

    With the 28 DT Comp spokes and the deep rim the wheel appears plenty robust for our 305 lb. team. I notice no flex and descend confidently on them. The hubs are DT Swiss 240S disc brake and 240S.

    What is the weight, you ask? I'd wondered myself, and getting the wheels back gave me the opportunity to weigh them sans disc and cassette.





    The front and rear are 789 and 929 grams respectively.

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    Nice wheels Ritterview. I would prefer to use the DT 240 hubs. What is your rear wheel spacing?

    You didn't mention any handling issues, I'm guessing 68mm deep wheels are no problem on the tandem in a crosswind.
    RP

  14. #14
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamptandem View Post
    I would prefer to use the DT 240 hubs. What is your rear wheel spacing?

    You didn't mention any handling issues, I'm guessing 68mm deep wheels are no problem on the tandem in a crosswind.
    RP
    The OLD is 135 mm. I am very glad I chose 135 mm. A bit wider than the 130 mm road standard, and it allows use of the wide variety of mountain bike equipment, which are likewise equipped with triples, rotors, etc.

    With wind it can get a bit sketchy. Eventually I will purchase an aluminum rim front wheel for rides with a lot of wind, or tricky descents that would require front caliper braking in addition to the rear disc. Its easy enough to change out a front wheel and brake pads.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    The OLD is 135 mm. I am very glad I chose 135 mm. A bit wider than the 130 mm road standard, and it allows use of the wide variety of mountain bike equipment, which are likewise equipped with triples, rotors, etc.

    With wind it can get a bit sketchy. Eventually I will purchase an aluminum rim front wheel for rides with a lot of wind, or tricky descents that would require front caliper braking in addition to the rear disc. Its easy enough to change out a front wheel and brake pads.
    I think it was a smart decision to go with 135mm. You open yourself up to a ton of options.

    However, my 145's have taken quite a beating with no issues, and they aren't crazy heavy. Though if I could do it again (and spend a bit more dough), I might have gone 135mm with your exact rear wheel, but with my current front wheel.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinter View Post
    Homey, what width hub are you running on your Calfee?
    135mm Sorry, I missed that.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  17. #17
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamptandem View Post
    Nice wheels Ritterview. I would prefer to use the DT 240 hubs. What is your rear wheel spacing?

    You didn't mention any handling issues, I'm guessing 68mm deep wheels are no problem on the tandem in a crosswind.
    RP
    I think that deep section wheels have less of an effect on a tandem, than a single, due to the longer wheel base, and added weight.

    The only time we've had any issues with the 808's was time trialing with aerobars in a significant cross wind, and it was still manageable.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  18. #18
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    I think that deep section wheels have less of an effect on a tandem, than a single, due to the longer wheel base, and added weight.

    The only time we've had any issues with the 808's was time trialing with aerobars in a significant cross wind, and it was still manageable.
    Homeyba, what say you about winds and deep section rims on a tandem? On RAAM, if the winds kicked up, would the Zipps be doffed? The front only, or both?

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    [QUOTE=merlinextraligh;11574549]I think that deep section wheels have less of an effect on a tandem, than a single, due to the longer wheel base, and added weight.



    This is what I was wondering. Sounds logical. Deep wheels, here we come.

    Good posts everyone. Thank you! I now may go 135mm rear spacing too. More hub options, and I can get a cheap set of 29er wheels for everyday abuse.
    RP

  20. #20
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    Homeyba, what say you about winds and deep section rims on a tandem? On RAAM, if the winds kicked up, would the Zipps be doffed? The front only, or both?
    I had problems with the HED3 wheels and wind. It wasn't so much blowing the bike all over the place (though it did move a little as the Zipps do) but it caused the bike to wallow and if I hit a bump or somthing upset the bike at all it would become a shimmy which gets a little exciting at 50+mph. That may have had more to do with the interaction between the HED3's and my really stiff frame. The Zipps haven't given me too much problems in the wind. All of our tandems had Zipp 404's on them for RAAM. I don't remember there being any significant wind issues. Gusts of course are much more problematic than sustained side winds. When I get home tonight I'll post a pic of some of the side winds I've ridden in, yes you can actually see the wind, or all the sand in it...
    Last edited by Homeyba; 10-06-10 at 12:47 PM.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Here you go. Zipp 404's in a slight side wind.

    DSC_60201..jpg

    btw here's a pic of us in RAAM 09 with the HED3 wheel on there.

    579222940_9umRi-M..jpg
    Last edited by Homeyba; 10-06-10 at 07:49 PM.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

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    I created a post about using a 28 hole 145 DT swiss 240 hub a few months ago. Shouldn't be too far back. I too have the Edge 65 clinchers. I'm quite happy with them. I (self) built them up and have not even had to true them post build. (~700-1000 miles on them) Radial lace spaim front, 2x butted/aero rear. I do a quick tension check on my wheels every time I swap tires, balance them if need be and keep a spoke tool/spares in the seat post. (though, I've never needed them) Team is roughly 300lbs 4 bottles of water, 1lb tool bag, 25-27lb(I forget?) bike. It's pancake flat here in TX, so no real worry about making the rims hot. In wet weather, it's pretty hard on the DT Swiss yellow pads. I wore them quite a bit in a 70 mile rain ride.

    I had to warranty a edge wheel right out of the box, the braking surface had an overlap and would have a 'thump thump thump' on the front wheel. They took care of it, no problems since.

    *IF* doing it again, I'd seriously look at Reynold's new wheel this year. Probably the SDV66, they changed the epoxy compound to better handle higher heat. Edge(ENVE) may have also, I've not read any 2011 reports.

    The new Cyfac tandem was built with 135mm spacing to make it easier to build a fancy rim, I'll simply re-dish my current rim, switch axles and call it done. I haven't decided what I'm going to do for it's debut at the show; I'll come up with something when I get me hands on the new frame...

    -Brad

  23. #23
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Bedell View Post
    I had to warranty a edge wheel right out of the box, the braking surface had an overlap and would have a 'thump thump thump' on the front wheel. They took care of it, no problems since.

    *IF* doing it again, I'd seriously look at Reynold's new wheel this year. Probably the SDV66, they changed the epoxy compound to better handle higher heat. Edge(ENVE) may have also, I've not read any 2011 reports.

    In wet weather, it's pretty hard on the DT Swiss yellow pads...
    My problem was with my rear wheel, I sent ENVE my front wheel too only because I wanted the new ENVE stickers to match front and rear. Imagine my surprise when they warrantied my front wheel too, as they found uneveness in the rim. I think it was there from the start, as I had commented on front wheel brake chuddering in a first ride report post. Lets just say that ENVE's wheel customer support >> a prominent tandem manufacturer's.

    I discussed the new rim with Jake at ENVE. The new rim is improved, as it has a new heat resistant epoxy. Sounds like what the Reynolds is doing.

    ENVE has their new recommended gray brake pad, which should probably be used in lieu of the Swiss Stops.


    Quote Originally Posted by swamptandem View Post
    I would prefer to use the DT 240 hubs... I now may go 135mm rear spacing too. More hub options.
    Once you go to 135 mm, then a myriad of hub options present themselves. DT 240's have their merits (eg, reliability, ubiquity) but there are other hubs that might make for a stronger wheel. You can see how DT stacks up against other boutique hubs at the epic Fairwheel Hub Review.

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    Ritterview - I cannot reply to your personal message. This site tells me I have not had enough posts to do the personal message thing. I wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring your request. I'll get a post up about some bike details soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    Here you go. Zipp 404's in a slight side wind.

    DSC_60201..jpg

    btw here's a pic of us in RAAM 09 with the HED3 wheel on there.

    579222940_9umRi-M..jpg
    I guess with the HED3 wheels, the tumble weeds will go right through.

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