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  1. #26
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    Our daVinci came with Campy Chorus 10-speed shifters, Campy FD (Mirage I believe, probably the only one that'd support quad rings), SRAM X-9 long-cage RD, with the DV custom "pulley" to convert the action, and SRAM 9-speed cassette. Rear shifting has been quite good, as long as I stay up on chain lube (100 miles is my max range between lubes). Front has been sub-par, in my (high standards) opinion - lately ring2->ring1 is almost always a no-go, but ring3->ring2 often becomes ring3->ring1->ring3->ring2, and we've done ring3->ring"5" twice now. Thankfully the DV drivetrain means throwing the chain to the right isn't painful, just greasy. For the record, I came from a Shimano Dura-Ace double, so maybe my standards are high?

  2. #27
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chichi View Post
    Had the chain fall off the outboard side of the big chain ring about a month ago, it resulted it an inner link of the chain being twisted about 30 degrees, was able to make a road side repair and finish the ride. I chalked it up to pilot error.
    Just so I don't mis-read the cause effect here...

    1. I'm assuming the chain coming off the big chainring had nothing to do with the rear derailleur's performance?
    2. However, when the damaged chain entered the rear derailleur's idler pulley and cage, instead of just jaming and locking up the drive train the rear derailleur came apart in dramatic and non-repairable fashion?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Just so I don't mis-read the cause effect here...

    1. I'm assuming the chain coming off the big chainring had nothing to do with the rear derailleur's performance?
    2. However, when the damaged chain entered the rear derailleur's idler pulley and cage, instead of just jaming and locking up the drive train the rear derailleur came apart in dramatic and non-repairable fashion?
    The incident where the link was twisted did not result in the cage failure, I just noted it because it seemed like a similar incident led to the failure that did destroy not only the cage put the RD body. In the second incident the chain was not damaged. The FD had been working fine with the old set up and was not readjusted when the SRAM was installed. I have not adjusted the FD since reinstalling the Shimano RD it will be interesting to see if the problem persists. I do not know what happened first, the problem at the RD, or the chain falling off. I do know I have never broken a cage before.

  4. #29
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Which model of SRAM RD were you using?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    Which model of SRAM RD were you using?
    XO 10 Speed long cage

  6. #31
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    I think the XO has a carbon outer cage. The X9 and lower models have aluminum cages which should be more durable. A moving chain can chew through carbon pretty fast.

    Wayne

    http://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/pr...ear-derailleur

    http://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/pr...ear-derailleur
    Last edited by waynesulak; 10-10-11 at 12:38 PM. Reason: forgot links

  7. #32
    Gear Combo Guru Chris_W's Avatar
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    I agree that the SRAM X-9 derailleur is more robust than the X-0. We once set off without the chain running through the rear derailleur properly because it had come off one of the pulleys during the train trip to the start of our ride. We didn't realize right away and tried to start riding twice and found that the chain was locked up both times (I thought I had fixed it after the first time, but the problem persisted).

    Shifting was problematic and the drivetrin a bit noisy throughout that ride. Once we returned home, I realized that we had bent the derailleur cage a little. Because the cage is metal, it was easy to re-straighten it by putting it in a bench vice, and it has worked fine ever since. If the cage had been carbon, like the one on the X-0, then it probably would have broken.

    There doesn't seem to be much reason to go with the X-0 model, I would recommend the X-9 model instead.

  8. #33
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    My X9 has held up despite one severe chain suck incident and one case where I dropped the chain off the outside of the FD and the chain wrapped completely around the BB and stoker's pedal spindle. The daVinci chain line is longer than normal and I almost think I could use a bit more tension out of the RD, but the 10 speed shifting has remained virtually perfect with the hybrid campy/SRAM setup
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  9. #34
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
    My X9 has held up despite one severe chain suck incident and one case where I dropped the chain off the outside of the FD and the chain wrapped completely around the BB and stoker's pedal spindle. The daVinci chain line is longer than normal and I almost think I could use a bit more tension out of the RD, but the 10 speed shifting has remained virtually perfect with the hybrid campy/SRAM setup
    Interesting because I feel the X9 has more tension than the XTR we were using. I have ridden behind daVinci and seen that longer chaining bouncing up and down enough to hit the stokers bottom bracket axel.

    Does your tandem have the anti chain suck device on daVinci's web site, (bottom of the page)?
    http://www.davincitandems.com/newprod.html

  10. #35
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    I've seen someone running a SRAM road derailer with a Shimano shifter, so those would seem to have the same cable travel since all parts were 10-speed.

    Therefore, the SRAM 1:1 MTB derailers have a much longer cable throw than SRAM road shifters and would not be compatible.

  11. #36
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    Does your tandem have the anti chain suck device on daVinci's web site, (bottom of the page)?
    http://www.davincitandems.com/newprod.html
    It sure does. The chain suck bent the chain suck device badly and jammed the chain. Fortunately, no damage done. daVinci now has a stronger device which I'm going to have put on the next time I'm up in Pleasanton at Crank-2. I've been Bryon's (owner of Crank-2) test subject for the campy/SRAM 10 speed setup.
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  12. #37
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    I did the same thing on a test ride at Crank2 and nearly had to walk back. The new design is much beefier. When we got our Da Vinci(used) it came with the older one and we haven't had any chainsuck issues(knock on wood).

    As for front shifting, we had issues jumping over #2 in both directions, but I lowered the FD until there was about 1mm of clearance and that has helped. It's still not great, but it's much better.


    Quote Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
    It sure does. The chain suck bent the chain suck device badly and jammed the chain. Fortunately, no damage done. daVinci now has a stronger device which I'm going to have put on the next time I'm up in Pleasanton at Crank-2. I've been Bryon's (owner of Crank-2) test subject for the campy/SRAM 10 speed setup.

  13. #38
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    I am surprised. I always thought with half the force and twice the speed on the chain that the front shifting on a daVinci would be great. I have always used Chorus or Record shifters and I understand that he Mirage uses a different mechanism with bigger jumps with each click. Do you think the shifter is part of the problem?

    Wayne

  14. #39
    Gear Combo Guru Chris_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dddd View Post
    I've seen someone running a SRAM road derailer with a Shimano shifter, so those would seem to have the same cable travel since all parts were 10-speed.

    Therefore, the SRAM 1:1 MTB derailers have a much longer cable throw than SRAM road shifters and would not be compatible.
    Please don't make a contribution if you don't really know what you are talking about, you might mislead people with such false/incomplete information. SRAM and Shimano road levers and rear derailleurs are not compatible without a conversion pulley. The SRAM MTB rear derailleur cable pulls are different for the 9 and 10 speed versions (and the same is true for Shimano's MTB RDs). This is a complex topic, please don't start making any public statements like this until you understand it a whole lot more than you currently do.

  15. #40
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    I am surprised. I always thought with half the force and twice the speed on the chain that the front shifting on a daVinci would be great. I have always used Chorus or Record shifters and I understand that he Mirage uses a different mechanism with bigger jumps with each click. Do you think the shifter is part of the problem?

    Wayne
    It may be that the combination of Campy shifters (mine or new BTW) and the Mirage put the "clicks" in a better position relative to the four chainrings. The prior shifting was acceptable, but shifting from our 24t to 18t would often drop to the 12t. Maybe the Mirage travel is not linear? The prior FD was a Microshift I believe which daVinci had probably determined somewhat experimentally. Bryon at Crank-2 had been looking at different FD for some time and seems to have found a "winner". I was ok with the original FD until it got tweaked in the chain suck incident at which point we could never really get it right. The RD setup of course continues to shift almost perfectly!
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  16. #41
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
    It may be that the combination of Campy shifters (mine or new BTW) and the Mirage put the "clicks" in a better position relative to the four chainrings. The prior shifting was acceptable, but shifting from our 24t to 18t would often drop to the 12t. Maybe the Mirage travel is not linear? The prior FD was a Microshift I believe which daVinci had probably determined somewhat experimentally. Bryon at Crank-2 had been looking at different FD for some time and seems to have found a "winner". I was ok with the original FD until it got tweaked in the chain suck incident at which point we could never really get it right. The RD setup of course continues to shift almost perfectly!
    Did you consider replacing the original with a new FD of the same type? Possibly it was not available?

    Wayne

  17. #42
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    Did you consider replacing the original with a new FD of the same type? Possibly it was not available?

    Wayne
    The original FD is probably no longer available and always was a bit quirky. The quad-ring daVinci is a bit sensitive up front and the new FD appears to be much, much better. Next time I visit my LBS (140 mi. R/T!) they are going to change out a spacer on the chainring BB which should dial in the shifting almost perfectly.
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  18. #43
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    I've got two relevant updates to this thread.

    1. Regarding Hybrid (Campy/SRAM) rear shifting. My 12-32 continued to shift flawlessly. I recently changed to 11-36 and found that the SRAM RD spring tension isn't strong enough to return the RD against the h-stop unless the cable is too slack. I didn't notice this on the 12-32 since the smaller 12-13t jump didn't cause the chain to snag on the 13t cog. This really isn't a problem, but worthy of note. I can either change the 11-13 jump to 12-13 to increase slightly the RD spring tension - LBS suggests a very thin washer between the RD and hanger. I suspect this doesn't occur on singles with the simpler cable routing.

    2. Front shifting (daVinci issue only) - every since I killed my original FD from almost four years ago with a chain suck incident my LBS and I have been searching for a good solution. Mirage triple FD aren't really available any longer. A Veloce didn't really do the job. I've been trying an IRD, but that never really shifted well into the large (30t) chainring. The IRD actuation ratio looked to be excessive since the entire swing of the RD would only use maybe 5-6 clicks of the shifter. This was really a problem shifting from the 24t to the 30t; no matter how I tried to adjust things there was a good chance of the chain departing.

    I figured that a Campy FD would use the entire range of the shifter and order a Campy Comp triple FD. Mounted it last night and had a bit of difficult, but then discovered the the inner cage plate was just hitting the 24t chainring when I was trying to set up the shifting to the 30t. A bit of work with the dremel and a solo ride this am saw at least 25 flawless 24-30t FD shifts. As always YMMV, but I've got a pretty decent feel for this stuff after many hours of playing around.

    I'll beg forgiveness for a posting of interest only to a fringe element among the tandem fringe, but you never know when someone being pushed to the edge by a case of bad-shiftitis might need help.
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  19. #44
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting. I have had some small issues with the SRAM RD moving the chain from 13 to 12. Keeping the chain very well lubricated seems to help but I may give the small washer idea a try.

  20. #45
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    Final Follow-up just in case any disturbed daVinci owners are contemplating Campy/SRAM and should stumble upon this thread.

    FD is now shifting flawlessly. I'm using a Campy comp Triple FD, but the key is changing the spacer between the 24 and 30t chain rings from 9 spd. to 10 spd. I've now shifted many, many times to the big chain ring without a problem. Upshifting from 12 to 30 goes as follows:
    12 to 18, full sweep
    18 to 24, two clicks
    24 to 30, two clicks

    Now for the bad FD news. In order to get the chain ring assembly apart you've got to destroy something. So Todd sent a new set of chain rings and I gave my old set to Crank-2. I rode the bike once with the new setup before realizing I had inadvertently used a plastic spacer (long story) and even with a special jig and a very long chain whip it was all I could do to unscrew the special 12t cog. Hopefully, Todd will redesign the assembly in the future or design some tooling to permit non-destructive dis-assembly.

    The RD problem was a bit more difficult to diagnose due to owner stupidity. My drive chain was at 1% and my WI rear hub at come a bit out of adjustment. Never thought to check the latter. It's funny how a symptom should crop up just when you change a piece of gear leading a very circuitous troubleshooting exercise. Proper trouble shooting sequence goes something like this: chain stretch, lateral play in wheel, RD hanger,... Way, way down on the list is a bad RD spring
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  21. #46
    Gear Combo Guru Chris_W's Avatar
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    After a failed experiment with using a Rohloff hub on our tandem (this didn't work out due to the Rohloff not shifting well under load, and the chain is almost always under load because our cranks are OOP), we've now reverted to the SRAM 10-speed RD plus Campy 10-speed shifter setup, but that is still not working well.

    The biggest issue is accessing the second-largest cog on the cassette - the chain often jumps from the third largest cog to the largest cog with only one click of the shifter, on the way up and on the way down. I've tried every tiny adjustment of cable tension possible (aka, housing length adjustment if you want to be pedantic) but I cannot really resolve the problem. In addition, the chain still sometimes skips between other cogs even when I think I've got the tension dialled in just right, and some down-shifts (i.e., going to larger cogs) require an extra nudge of the shift lever after the initial click doesn't get the chain to move.

    I'm using Nokon housing, so there should be zero compression going on there, and I've changed the cables between the two installations that I've done. I've also checked the derailleur hanger with a professional shop tool several times. Similar symptoms happen with a new chain and a partly worn chain. Lateral play in the rear wheel is not something that I'd considered before, but there does not appear to be any.

    Are other people having more success with this setup than I am? I would give my rear shifting a score of only about 7 out of 10 - a long way off the 9 or 10 out of 10 that I would give the rear shifting on all of my single bikes (with various combinations of shifters and derailleurs), but still a little better than the shifting I had on the tandem when we had a Shimano road lever paired with a Shimano MTB RD (9-speed, both XT and XTR), to which I would only give about 5 out of 10.

    I'm now starting to decide that maybe this setup is not 100% compatible - maybe the Campy shifter does not pull the ideal amount of cable to operate a SRAM MTB RD across the whole range of gears. If the cable pulled per click differs between the two brands by just 0.1 mm then that is going to make a 0.9 mm deviation when it gets to the last click, which would be significant.

    My next plan is to borrow a SRAM road shifter and see whether that can operate the RD more reliably. Unfortunately, even if that works then I would be very averse to going with it because I cannot stand the ergonomics of SRAM road levers - having only one lever that changes both up and down gears seems a bit primitive to me (kind of like Apple products that take so many buttons away that the functionality is sometimes hindered), plus the shape and length of the brake lever is not ideal for my hands/style. So, even though I don't want to go with this as a solution, trying it will at least provide me with some interesting information.

    As an alternative, I'm thinking of going with Ultegra electronic shifting since we're now running only two chainrings (26/42 for most rides, and 30/46 for faster events) - I just need to confirm for myself the online reports I've read that say that the Ultegra electronic RD works OK with a 32-tooth cog with only a B-screw adjustment, a careful choice of chain length, and no other modifications.
    Last edited by Chris_W; 06-29-12 at 05:03 PM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_W View Post
    Are other people having more success with this setup than I am? I would give my rear shifting a score of only about 7 out of 10 - a long way off the 9 or 10 out of 10 that I would give the rear shifting on all of my single bikes (with various combinations of shifters and derailleurs), but still a little better than the shifting I had on the tandem when we had a Shimano road lever paired with a Shimano MTB RD (9-speed, both XT and XTR), to which I would only give about 5 out of 10.
    I have a bike with Campy shifters and SRAM RD. It shifts OK but not great. Itís a new setup this year after reading that everyone was having good luck with it. The adjustment is fussy to get just right so it shifts all 10 speeds without jumping, making noise etc in some gears. I also have a bike with Campy shifters and RD a Shimano cassette using a J-tec and 2 bikes with Campy shifters and Shimano RD, cassette and a J-tec. They all shift great. I plan to replace the SRAM RD with a Campy or Shimano and add a J-tec this winter.

    Dave

  23. #48
    Senior Member toytech's Avatar
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    Mine is working without hitch so far, Campy Centaur 10 shifters, Shimano 105 front derailleur and an Sram X9 10 speed rear.
    I am using Sram chain and an Sram 11-36 cassette. The shifting over a couple hundred miles has been on par with my 10 speed chorus equipped single. No complaints at all so far.
    I was pretty careful to miter the ends of the housing and keep as short as possible (my Sterling Bilenky has mostly exposed cable routing anyway).
    "Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day."--Harry S. Truman

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_W View Post
    ...we've now reverted to the SRAM 10-speed RD plus Campy 10-speed shifter setup, but that is still not working well.
    You can get the X-0, X-9, and X-7 MTB RD's in both 9 and 10 speed. Any chance that you actually have a SRAM 9-speed RD and this is what's causing the problem?

  25. #50
    Gear Combo Guru Chris_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhino919 View Post
    You can get the X-0, X-9, and X-7 MTB RD's in both 9 and 10 speed. Any chance that you actually have a SRAM 9-speed RD and this is what's causing the problem?
    It's definitely a 10-speed X-9 rear derailleur. If it was the 9-speed version then I think it would be a long way off, but it is only barely missing certain shifts - some people might even put up with it, and we have done so for several months, but it is still not up to the standard that I want. BTW, the cassette is an XT 11-32.

    I had been attributing our problems to some aspect of the setup or adjustment; it was only because I had the whole drivetrain, shifters, cables, etc., off of the bike for two months while doing the Rohloff experiment, and then did a completely fresh install with new cables, housing, etc., and then had the identical same problems on the exact same shifts as before that I started to think that it might not be my setup but it could be a compatibility issue.
    Last edited by Chris_W; 07-01-12 at 02:17 AM.

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