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Old 06-30-12, 03:35 PM   #51
waynesulak
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I also switched to SRAM RD with Campy shifters. I would rate the shifting 9 out of 10. It will sometimes shift two gears instead of one in the middle of the cassette. The odd thing is that it puts the jockey pully directly under each rear cog all across the cassette. To me it seems like the RD is too flexible. We put a lot of stress on a RD by sometimes shifting when standing and the performance there is well below what I would like.

Previously we used either Shimano XTR or Campy Centaur triple RD with the appropriate Jtek and Campy shifters on our tandems. They shift 10 out of 10 when adjusted but would loose adjustment as the Jtek rotated out of adjustment. When adjusted, shifting up or down when out of the saddle was great. Really great shifting. It was the constant problems with JTEK adjustment that caused the move to a SRAM RD. Sometimes I had to adjust it in the middle of a long ride while the SRAM stays adjusted even if the shifting is not perfect. Basically I have learned to work with it. I have found that a freshly lubricated chain helps the SRAM shift better. Part of my SRAM coping strategy is to lubricate the chain often.

I am considering attempting to modify a JTEK to clamp the cable to the pully so that it will not slip and lose adjustment. Electronic is not an option for us because we want a triple. I also like the shape of the Campy 10 shifters and would hesitate to switch to a larger Shimano shape shifter.

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Old 06-30-12, 04:18 PM   #52
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I also switched to SRAM RD with Campy shifters. I would rate the shifting 9 out of 10. It will sometimes shift two gears instead of one in the middle of the cassette. The odd thing is that it puts the jockey pully directly under each rear cog all across the cassette. To me it seems like the RD is too flexible. We put a lot of stress on a RD by sometimes shifting when standing and the performance there is well below what I would like.

Previously we used either Shimano XTR or Campy Centaur triple RD with the appropriate Jtek and Campy shifters on our tandems. They shift 10 out of 10 when adjusted but would loose adjustment as the Jtek rotated out of adjustment. When adjusted, shifting up or down when out of the saddle was great. Really great shifting. It was the constant problems with JTEK adjustment that caused the move to a SRAM RD. Sometimes I had to adjust it in the middle of a long ride while the SRAM stays adjusted even if the shifting is not perfect. Basically I have learned to work with it. I have found that a freshly lubricated chain helps the SRAM shift better. Part of my SRAM coping strategy is to lubricate the chain often.

I am considering attempting to modify a JTEK to clamp the cable to the pully so that it will not slip and lose adjustment. Electronic is not an option for us because we want a triple. I also like the shape of the Campy 10 shifters and would hesitate to switch to a larger Shimano shape shifter.
It could be that the RD is too flexible but it seams to me like the spring is too weak. One problem I have is if Iím in the middle ring the chain wonít stay on 11T sprocket. When on the stand you can see the RD moving back and forth and jumping between the 11T and 12 T with slack in the cable and the limit screw loose.

I have not had any problems with any of my J-tecs rotating out of adjustment. I know TandemGeek was having that problem and at the time thought it might be the cables he was running. Hopefully he will reply.

Dave
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Old 06-30-12, 05:41 PM   #53
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It could be that the RD is too flexible but it seams to me like the spring is too weak. One problem I have is if I’m in the middle ring the chain won’t stay on 11T sprocket. When on the stand you can see the RD moving back and forth and jumping between the 11T and 12 T with slack in the cable and the limit screw loose.

I have not had any problems with any of my J-tecs rotating out of adjustment. I know TandemGeek was having that problem and at the time thought it might be the cables he was running. Hopefully he will reply.

Dave
I had some trouble getting the X9 to drop to the smallest cog as well and agree the spring may be a little weak. I tried placing a washer between the RD and derailleur hanger to try to get more force out of the spring but that didn't seem to help much. Replaced the X9 with anApex which puts the jockey wheels closer to the cassette and that helped but still not perfect.

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Old 06-30-12, 06:26 PM   #54
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Just to summarize an earlier post: we used an 11-32 for at least 3000 miles with nary a missed or hesitant shift. When I did start to experience some overshifts (downshifts) I believe this coincided with my change to an 11-36 on which there is one large jump. Since then I've discovered and fixed a significant loss of adjustment in my WI hub which gave me more than 1 mm of freehub movement. I'm pretty confident that the 11-36 will shift just fine. I also have the same configuration on my single, but with an 11-32 and Rival RD; the shifting is just fine, but LBS found that a KMC chain shifted better than either Shimano or SRAM.

Those of you who have read this thread will also recall the observation that SRAM cassettes don't appear to shift worth a darn with this setup - Todd at daVinci observed the same thing.
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Old 07-02-12, 12:33 AM   #55
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Quick update - I tried putting a SRAM Force shifter onto my setup in place of the Campy Record (10-speed) unit and it worked perfectly (not only on the stand, but also just on a 100 km test ride). I only changed the shifter and front section of the cable up to the cable coupler (which is in front of the captain's bottom bracket).

The Force unit instantly worked perfectly - I got lucky and clamped the cable in the coupler in the perfect place and never even needed to make an adjustment to the housing length (aka cable tension). I'm now wondering whether the Campy shifter I was using was a faulty unit - it was a used one that was in the stock of the bike shop where I work; it appears to be fine but now I want to check whether using a different Campy lever will make any difference. I would prefer not to have to use a SRAM lever because I dislike the ergonomics.

Having got close to finding a solution for my shifting woes, my wife has now given me the go-ahead to buy an Ultegra electronic setup if I decide that it is the best solution! I tried putting some larger cassettes on the single-bike at work that has Ultegra Di2: It worked fine with an 11-32 cassette and even seemed OK with a 34-tooth largest cog, which I was surprised by. I didn't even need to reverse the B-screw; when the upper pulley cleared the largest cog, the B-screw still had one or two turns available. So it appears that our gearing choices won't be too limited if we go with Ultegra Di2 (except for not being able to have three chainrings, but currently we cannot have that anyway because we're using single-side drive, with the timing belt on the right-side and the rings mounted in place of the outer rings on two triple cranks; this is so that we can use 165 mm single-bike cranks front and rear).

Last edited by Chris_W; 07-05-12 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 08-08-12, 01:48 PM   #56
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Bump for Veggie.
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Old 12-17-12, 11:00 PM   #57
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Bumping this thread in hopes that someone can offer some advice.

My (single) bike is currently set up with:

Campy 10s Centaur (Proshift) shifters
daVinci-modified SRAM X9 9sderailleur
SRAM 11-32 9s cassette
KMC 9s chain

It shifts great as-is (34/46 up front, Centaur front derailleur), but I'd like to convert to a 10s Shimano 11-28 (or 30) cassette. My rear hub has an alloy freehub, so I can't use a conversion-type cassette (the loose cogs would gouge the splines).

Has anyone had good luck pairing Campy 10s shifters with a short/med cage SRAM derailleur and an 11-28/30 (10s) cassette?
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Old 12-18-12, 08:34 AM   #58
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Bumping this thread in hopes that someone can offer some advice.

My (single) bike is currently set up with:

Campy 10s Centaur (Proshift) shifters
daVinci-modified SRAM X9 9sderailleur
SRAM 11-32 9s cassette
KMC 9s chain

It shifts great as-is (34/46 up front, Centaur front derailleur), but I'd like to convert to a 10s Shimano 11-28 (or 30) cassette. My rear hub has an alloy freehub, so I can't use a conversion-type cassette (the loose cogs would gouge the splines).

Has anyone had good luck pairing Campy 10s shifters with a short/med cage SRAM derailleur and an 11-28/30 (10s) cassette?
You might look at this option. http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmatestraight.php I've been using their products for 6 years without problems. I'm using the straight shiftmate on our tandem with Campy 10 spd. shifters, Sram XX long cage rear derailleur and Sram 11-28 cassette. I'm setting it up today actually.

Curtis
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Old 12-18-12, 10:46 AM   #59
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You might look at this option. http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmatestraight.php I've been using their products for 6 years without problems. I'm using the straight shiftmate on our tandem with Campy 10 spd. shifters, Sram XX long cage rear derailleur and Sram 11-28 cassette. I'm setting it up today actually.

Curtis
Thanks. Could you post a follow-up with your results/findings?
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Old 12-18-12, 12:35 PM   #60
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Has anyone had good luck pairing Campy 10s shifters with a short/med cage SRAM derailleur and an 11-28/30 (10s) cassette?
On our tandem, we are running Campy Record 10s shifters, SRAM X9 (10s) long cage RD, Ultegra 11-28 cassette. We use the long cage as we have a triple up front (54/42/30). It shifts great.

If it were me, I would change your RD to a SRAM 10s version. Good luck.
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Old 12-18-12, 12:53 PM   #61
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On our tandem, we are running Campy Record 10s shifters, SRAM X9 (10s) long cage RD, Ultegra 11-28 cassette. We use the long cage as we have a triple up front (54/42/30). It shifts great.

If it were me, I would change your RD to a SRAM 10s version. Good luck.
Thanks.

You're not running a ShiftMate on your setup, correct?
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Old 12-18-12, 01:59 PM   #62
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As mentioned earlier in this thread:

We use Campy 10 speed Record shifters, Sram 10 Apex RD and Shimano 10 speed cassettes. We also ride a second tandem with Campy Chorus 10 speed shifters Shimano RD and Shimano 10 cassette with Shiftmate.

After some initial problems I believe the Apex does a better job than the SRAM 10 speed X9 RD that we tried first. We use road cassettes with max cog size of 32 and often 25. The SRAM RD setup works well but not quite as good as the shiftmate when it is adjusted properly. In general I don't think that the SRAM RDs are quite as stiff as Shimano or Campy RDs but it is adequate. We usually shift under some load so a stiff RD is a good thing.

The problem with Shiftmate is that on a tandem it creeps out of adjustment due to the cable slipping through the pully. The Campy/SRAM/Shimano system stays adjusted so we get good shifting all the time rather than alternating between great and bad shifting with the Campy/SHimano/Shimano/Shiftmate system.
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Old 12-18-12, 05:21 PM   #63
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Thanks.

You're not running a ShiftMate on your setup, correct?
Correct - No ShiftMate.
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Old 12-19-12, 11:43 AM   #64
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The problem with Shiftmate is that on a tandem it creeps out of adjustment due to the cable slipping through the pully. The Campy/SRAM/Shimano system stays adjusted so we get good shifting all the time rather than alternating between great and bad shifting with the Campy/SHimano/Shimano/Shiftmate system.
Wayne,
Is it something about the setup on a tandem that causes the problem with the cable slipping on the pulley? I know Tandemgeek had similar issues with the Shiftmate but I thought that was determined to be a possible defective unit. I've used a Shiftmate on my single bike with Campy/Campy/Shimano and it has been "set it and forget it" for 6 years.

Curtis
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Old 12-19-12, 09:24 PM   #65
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Wayne,
Is it something about the setup on a tandem that causes the problem with the cable slipping on the pulley? I know Tandemgeek had similar issues with the Shiftmate but I thought that was determined to be a possible defective unit. I've used a Shiftmate on my single bike with Campy/Campy/Shimano and it has been "set it and forget it" for 6 years.

Curtis
I have a tandem with Campy/Campy/Shimano, I also have a tandem and a triplet with Campy/Shimano/Shimano all running shiftmates. They are all "set it and forget it". I also have a single bike with Campy/SRAM/Shimano. I have better shifting with the tandems and the triplet then on the single. I plan to change it to a Campy or Shimano RD with a shiftmate this winter. IIRC Tandemgeek thought it could be the cable he was using.

Dave
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Old 12-20-12, 07:31 AM   #66
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Wayne,
Is it something about the setup on a tandem that causes the problem with the cable slipping on the pulley? I know Tandemgeek had similar issues with the Shiftmate but I thought that was determined to be a possible defective unit. I've used a Shiftmate on my single bike with Campy/Campy/Shimano and it has been "set it and forget it" for 6 years.

Curtis
I have used campy shifters, Shimano RD, and shiftmate with no adjustment for years on my single bike. It worked great so that is the way I set my tandem up and I expected no problems.

We demand a lot more from our shifting cable on a tandem than I do on my single. On the single I believe that I automatically let up on the pedals for just a second when shifting. On the tandem I no longer call rear shifts and while I may still pause a little my stoker continues on full power as we work our way up and down the cassette. We also shift A LOT more than I do on my single.

Cable choice does play a part and I have discovered through trial and error to avoid the slick Teflon coated cables. Cheaper stainless steel cables grab the shiftmate pulley better and slip less. It still slips though.

I have also tried to pay attention to when it slips so as to narrow down the problem. I believe that shifting from a larger cog to a smaller cog under strong pedaling load is the problem. The more often and the more power on the pedals the more it slips. I had some success placing a few drops of superglue on the cable at the crossover point on the Shiftmate. This attaches the cable to the shiftmate pulley and keeps it from slipping when it is without tension on shifts to smaller cogs. The superglue idea works great for a while but is really just a stopgap solution. I was working on a way to mechanically hold the cable in place when I read that the SRAM 10 speed RD works.

If your team shifts more gently you may have much less of an issue with slipping.

Last edited by waynesulak; 12-20-12 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 12-20-12, 08:00 AM   #67
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What is the advantage of using the Campy shifter over the Shimano? I am buying stuff for my next build out and thought it would be simpler to stay with Shimano STI shifter, cassette, and RD for compatibility. Just wondering why most people here prefer the campy.
Thanks,
CJ
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Old 12-20-12, 10:02 AM   #68
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What is the advantage of using the Campy shifter over the Shimano? I am buying stuff for my next build out and thought it would be simpler to stay with Shimano STI shifter, cassette, and RD for compatibility. Just wondering why most people here prefer the campy.
Thanks,
CJ
Largely this is a matter of preference but in my opinion Campy:

Handles front shifting much better. We can go from big ring to middle ring going uphill under full power while sitting. Also from middle to granny under almost full power. Really nice compared to our 12,000 miles with STI that required a pause in power to go to a smaller front ring.

Campy allows better front derailleur trimming

Campy fits my hands much better. Pure preference here but I spend a lot of time with my hands on those things.

For the weight weenie they are lighter.

For the non weight weenie - Until recently Shimano had those wires sticking out sideways which interfered with a front bag.

As a side note to me Shimano's big selling point is they come stock on almost all new tandems. Like Internet Explorer is installed with Windows so a lot people use it. It works ok so why change. I used the ones that came with our new tandem until the right shifter was worn out at 12,000 miles. When I had to spend my money I picked Campy.

Last edited by waynesulak; 12-20-12 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 12-20-12, 10:41 AM   #69
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Thanks Wayne,
Why do you prefer Shimano RD or SRAM RD over the Campy? Why not get just Campy components and skip the shiftmate?
CJ
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Old 12-20-12, 10:53 AM   #70
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Thanks Wayne,
Why do you prefer Shimano RD or SRAM RD over the Campy? Why not get just Campy components and skip the shiftmate?
CJ

Rear hubs and wheels with Shimano freehubs are more easily available. Shimano cassettes come in more variety and are much cheaper.
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Old 12-20-12, 01:30 PM   #71
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Largely this is a matter of preference but in my opinion Campy:

Handles front shifting much better. We can go from big ring to middle ring going uphill under full power while sitting. Also from middle to granny under almost full power. Really nice compared to our 12,000 miles with STI that required a pause in power to go to a smaller front ring.

Campy allows better front derailleur trimming

Campy fits my hands much better. Pure preference here but I spend a lot of time with my hands on those things.

For the weight weenie they are lighter.

For the non weight weenie - Until recently Shimano had those wires sticking out sideways which interfered with a front bag.

As a side note to me Shimano's big selling point is they come stock on almost all new tandems. Like Internet Explorer is installed with Windows so a lot people use it. It works ok so why change. I used the ones that came with our new tandem until the right shifter was worn out at 12,000 miles. When I had to spend my money I picked Campy.
And Campy shifters are rebuildable. I've thrown away 3 sets of Shimano shifters in the past 7 years because I couldn't rebuild them, one Ultegra and two XTR sets.
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Old 12-20-12, 01:36 PM   #72
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Bumping this thread in hopes that someone can offer some advice.

My (single) bike is currently set up with:

Campy 10s Centaur (Proshift) shifters
daVinci-modified SRAM X9 9sderailleur
SRAM 11-32 9s cassette
KMC 9s chain

It shifts great as-is (34/46 up front, Centaur front derailleur), but I'd like to convert to a 10s Shimano 11-28 (or 30) cassette. My rear hub has an alloy freehub, so I can't use a conversion-type cassette (the loose cogs would gouge the splines).

Has anyone had good luck pairing Campy 10s shifters with a short/med cage SRAM derailleur and an 11-28/30 (10s) cassette?
I'll add a few cents worth:
I'm running Campy 10s shifters, SRAM RD and Shimano cassette on both single and tandem, both currently using the 10s X9 RD. The RD shifting in one particular place on the cassette can be sensitive in terms of setup, but I'm definitely satisfied over what is probably 10K miles. I recently had to change the single from a Rival mid-cage to the X9 long cage when going from double to triple chain rings. The mid-cage did shift a bit better, but I needed the chain wrap of the mountain RD.

I don't have any experience with Shimano RD to speak of, but the X9 does have more slop than I would like to see and I wish the main spring were a bit stronger, especially since the daVinci has an extra long chain. That having been said I can (but don't) use all 10s from any of my four chain rings. I need the Campy shifters to handle the quad chain rings which the left shifter does admirably, but that's not a typical situation for either tandem or single.

Addendum: I think by now everyone trying this hybrid setup understands that the Campy cable pull is non-linear versus the linear actuation of the SRAM 10-speed RD. Nevertheless, the combination has been demonstrated to shift extremely well. One trick I've learned is to make sure to set the H-limit so the chain will just drop into the small cog. A quarter turn of the screw beyond this point may cause that intermittent double shift that some have observed; that extra quarter turn requires some additional cable tension to get a good 11-12 shift (for example) which, in turn, can cause that mid-cassette double shift.. This is probably a greater sensitivity to this adjustment than found on setups from a single manufacturer.

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Old 01-02-13, 09:03 PM   #73
Krenovian
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Originally Posted by MileHighMark View Post
Thanks. Could you post a follow-up with your results/findings?
I've set up our tandem with Campy 10spd shifters, Sram XX long cage RD, and Sram Red 11-28 cassette. With the Shiftmate #5S installed I get the worst shifting. I can get it set up so the derailleur moves up the cassette (to lower gears) ok, but moving down the cassette to higher gears from the 28 cog results in a double shift each time in the largest four cogs at some point, most often from the 28 cog. Setup without the Shiftmate is somewhat better but still results in double shifts about 3/4 of the time as above.

Best setup was with Campy RD. Nearly perfect shifting up and down the cassette without a Shiftmate installed. (Campy, Campy, Shimano w/ Shiftmate on my single bike is flawless). Problem here is that the Campy long cage derailleur has a chain wrap capacity of 39 teeth. There will be times that I'll put on a 11-32 or 11-34 cassette and will need a RD that has a 44-46 chain wrap capacity.

Started with a KMC 10 speed chain. Noise decreased and shifting improved a little bit when I changed to a SRAM 10 spd chain.

I'm going to put on a Shimano 12-27 10 speed cassette and see if that makes any difference in the shifting with the SRAM RD before I bag this appraoch and try a Shimano XT long cage derailleur. The way the shifting is now with the SRAM RDs (I've tried both XX long cage and X0 medium cage with similar results) it isn't acceptable. I'll also call Jtek to make sure they didn't send me the wrong version of the Straight Shiftmate but I kinda doubt that is the problem as the shifting without it is only marginally better at best.

Curtis

Last edited by Krenovian; 01-03-13 at 06:40 PM. Reason: Accuracy
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Old 01-02-13, 09:10 PM   #74
MileHighMark
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I've got some Campy-compatible wheels en route, so I'm going to see how an (almost) all-Campy system works.
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Old 01-05-13, 11:18 AM   #75
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No love from the Campy 10 spd shifter/SRAM rd combo with or without the Shiftmate #5S. I tried the Shimano cassette without any luck. Best shifting I could get was using rdtompki's advice to set the high limit screw so the chain just barely drops onto the 11 cog. I could get the shifting dialed in going up the cassette or down the cassette but not both directions at the same time.

At this point I'm wondering if chainstay length may be an issue here? On our Paketa V2 the chainstay measures approx. 427mm. I'm bagging the SRAM derailleur and going to try an XT Shadow 9 speed long cage RD with a Shiftmate. If I can't get that to work then I'll fall back to the Campy derailleur.

Curtis

Last edited by Krenovian; 01-05-13 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Grammar
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