chewa

Set up the cranks just slightly out of phase, maybe 45 degrees (Sandra just behind me). What a difference!

We have got rid of the power pulsing when hammering along on the flat and the gearchanges seem less clunky.

Also, feels much more like riding a single (or should I now say half bike ? ) as I'm less aware of there being someone else on the power stroke.

We just took it out for a test ride, 7.5 miles ( a wee bit hilly!) at an average of just under 17mph. It seems so much quicker.

Definitely well worth the effort.

And the Saratoga is the best couple of hundred quid I have ever spent.

colombo357

What about descending? Does the funny crank angle make it awkward for the stoker?

chewa

It doesn't seem to. We did just under 30 miles today into Edinburgh and back. Didn't really go down any huge hills but the angle is only slightly off - maybe 5 or 6 teeth different, less than 45 degrees.

Certainly very smooth on the flat, only slight pulsing when both pushing on the hills. Average just under 14 mph, pretty good as was quite "technical" lots of cyclepath and changes of direction.

It occurred to me this morning, the feeling is just like riding a fixed.

WNY tandem

How is standing together with them out of phase?

tandemchick

We noticed that gear shifts were much easier, too, when we started pedaling out of phase. Seemed much smoother all the way around, and it's nice to have a more even power distribution, especially up hills (we're 90 degrees out of phase, though).

WNY, not answering for OP, but we stand together just fine out of phase. If anything, the bike doesn't seem to rock back and forth quite as much since our pedals are in different positions--more even distribution, I guess. :-)

chewa

Well, as beginner tandemists (though experienced cyclists), we haven't tried that yet. We are still using flat pedals rather than the clipless we have on our other bikes (just while we get used to starting and stopping) so we will probably wait until we are clipped in.

It does raise a question though. My wife tends to climb out of the saddle, I tend to sit in and grind out the hills, only standing on short climbs to maintain momentum. We will have to find a common ground.

Sandra says she hadn't realised how often I change gear (I believe in spinning as being most efficient) until she got on the tandem. She said it is no wonder my right side ergo lever ratchet is worn out

DCwom

We recently toyed with a slight OOP setup ourselves, and found that it was annoying when standing while coasting (i.e. a butt break & not pedaling downhill) since one rider dosen't have a "level" stance. We've gone back to in phase.

rdtompki

We wore out or R/H ergo mechanism in about 4000 miles. Thank goodness Campy shifters are rebuildable. I'm sure you're changing gears much more frequently on the tandem - you decelerate more rapidly on uphill pitches and accelerate more rapidly on downhills. At the top of a roller where on a single you might stand for 50 yards, in our case we downshift one more time. We're working on standing, but more for the ability to rest on a climb (low cadence, minimal effort) than for "powering" up a shirt pitch.

chewa

That is a good point and we have noticed that. However, we tend to coast rarely and when we do shift which pedal is fully down from front to back (if that makes sense)

chas58

I would imagine the biggest hurdle would be going through hard turns, where one pedal would always be down.

wheelspeed

We just dropped our timing chain tonight for the first time. It happened when we hit a bump while pedalling downhill in near-top-gear at about 40mph. Geez, it felt like a chainstay exploded off the bike!!! We were bringing up the rear of a tough group ride of all singles on lots of hills, so I hastily got the timing chain back on and didn't think at all about the phase issue and we ended up 180 degrees OOP. Let me tell you, that is not good. :-) And it felt so weird that we stopped a second time because we swore something must've fallen off the bike to make it sway so bad. If I looked down at the pedals, seeing us pedalling 180 degrees out of phase made me dizzy... I had to just look ahead. It was pretty funny.

Since I'll have to fix it anyway, maybe we'll try 20 or 30 degrees OOP for curiosity. I'm nervous about shifting though... I like to give a 1/2 pedal-stroke surge, then ease up just when I shift to ensure low-stress shifts. Seems that would be harder to do when OOP. But life is about trying new things, so we'll try it. (Although, no matter how interesting it is to try new things, I won't try 180 degrees OOP again! ;-)

chewa

We use the tandem for exercise rides rather than anything too strenuous (My Cinelli lets me exorcise my demons!), but I think the smoothness in shifting is because I shift just as I'm coming over the top, so at that point neither of us is on the full power stroke.

Re cornering, the Saratoga has quite a high bottom bracket we would have to be pushing way harder than my nerve would cope to grind a pedal.

wheelspeed

Yes, I mentioned to stoker-wife last night that I felt this Thursday group ride is a bit much for a tandem, but she basically told me to quit complaining. (It's a nice group of people and she likes the social aspect. Plus, Thursday fits our schedule well.) So, I guess we'll keep at it!

twilkins9076

We've been riding 45 degrees oop for a few years now, and we like it because we climb much better, whether we're standing or sitting. Specifically, when we stood to climb while in-phase, it was really jerky because both pedal strokes bottomed out a the same time and we could never get into a good rhythm. With the captain leading by 45 degrees, we've always got a down stroke going and it's much smoother feeling.

It does look odd, though.....

Hunterpeaks

I have my stoker 'ahead' of me, so she comes on the power before me and that way I don't 'take' the resistance away from her.

We have dual power meters on our bike (quarq's) and have learned that allows us to create the highest combined wattage and also allows me to be at threshold power and her just below threshold power.

We have a timing belt and she is just two 'teeth' in front of me. We are both former pros and now racing the tandem(just back from Masters Nationals here in the states -Silver in TT-lost by 5seconds..ugh..., and Gold in RR). We had the 4th fastest TT time out of all tandems and our RR finish time was the fastest RR of all tandems by 3 minutes.

Without dual powermeters, it would be nearly impossible to know if you are really faster, but I might suggest riding with your stoker just ahead of you and see how that feels when you are at your threshold.

Hunter

p2templin

Hunter, what sort of bike are you riding with twin Quarqs? We're running twins on a daVinci now.

zonatandem

We are longtime OOPers.
Rode in-phase from 1975 to end of 1976.
Riding 90 degrees OOP from 1977 to the present.
225,000+ miles of OOPing on tandems.
We were quickly convinced that OOP has more merits than demerits!

Merits:
Always a power stroke going over the top.
Minimizes frame flex.
Less wear on drive components.
Easier climbing.
Lessened the need to stand.

Demerits:
Does not 'look nice'.
A bit more of a learning curve to stand.
Folks drafting you can't count your cadence.

'Perceived' demerits;
You can't stand (totally untrue).
You'll hit a pedal on a fast/hard leaning corner. Odds are definitely against you and stoker leaning that hard into a corner. We've never hit a pedal (yet).
You'll hit pedal on a speedbump (did that only once back in 1978 crossing the border from Arizona into Mexico).

For an on-the-road tandem OOP is definitely worth a try.
For radical off-roading on tandem, in-phase is strongly advised due to unpredictability of terrain and clearing trail obstacles.

Just our input/experience.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Hunterpeaks

Our bike is a Co-Motion Macchiato. Crazy stiff and sprints incredible. We can crack out 2200+ watts each sprint and have held 1980 avg. watts for 27 seconds.
Quarq made a custom power meter as my stoker needed 165mm cranks, so they used Carmina cranks that have removable spiders.
Gearing is 55/39: 11-28

Hunter

p2templin

That is CRAZY power...guess we have a long way to go at 1200W peak.

riding_blind

We have been riding 90 degrees oop for a couple of months now and love it. There were a couple of problems we had to work through but nothing we couldn't handle. Aubrey, the captain, leads which works since I am the stronger rider.

Problem Number 1. We both mount and dismount at the same time while starting and stopping. I am able to mount with my left peddle at almost 12:00 putting hers just under 9:00. It took a little bit of practice but now we really don't even notice it. I provide the power while she concentrates on getting on her seat. As long as she has enough leverage to push herself up it works fine.

Problem 2. When cornering she doesn't put the peddles verticle. The peddle opposite of the direction we are turning is slightly forward. For example if we are turning right her left peddle will be at about 7:30. This puts my right peddle at about 7:30 when facing it which is lower than I am comfortable with so i find my self pulling her vertical and me horizontal.

As I said before it is worth it. Climbing is smoother, the even power distrobution is nice, and shifting is better. I can understand how this might not be for everyone but it has worked for us.

mkane77g

Wife and I have been riding tandem since 1990. I'm going to set the bike up OOP and give it a try this weekend. Really curious.