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Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

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Old 04-30-12, 06:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
I looked at the potential weight savings of the Gates drive vs. a 10 speed chain here.



The weight savings on a Gates are largely dependent on the chain it replaces. If it is a heavy chain the savings can be considerable, since a sync chain is relatively long. With a more expensive 10-speed chain (e.g. Dura-Ace), the savings are relatively modest.
Thanks for repeating that information. Switching from 10 speed KMC to KMC 9 speed made less difference in weight than I expected. I came up with 50 grams of additional sync chain weight comparing the dirty 10 speed to new out of the box 9 speed. Some dirt probably added weight to the 10 speed chain so that understates the savings by some amount.

A couple years ago I weighed some chains and found that all 10 speed Shimano chains 105, Ultegra and DA seem to weigh about the same when new. Newer DA chains may be different.

Last edited by waynesulak; 04-30-12 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 04-30-12, 03:47 PM   #27
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My current Wipperman 8 speed front chain weighs right at 460 grams, so my estimate of a potential weight savings of about 1/2 pound should be very close.

I am going to upgrade for 2 reasons, a little weight reduction, but primarily for the cleanliness factor. We haul the tandem inside of our Honda Odyssey and we have to stay away from or cover the chain to keep from getting things dirty inside the car.

Wayne
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Old 04-30-12, 04:40 PM   #28
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We haul our tandem (with real chains) inside our '97 Honda Acord station wagon.
We put a rug/carpet remnant on the wagon floor to keep things clean.
Works fine for us!
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Old 04-30-12, 06:50 PM   #29
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FWIW, some friends in Texas just received their Gate Centertrack Tandem Sync drive yesterday. They'll be installing it on their Calfee bamboo enduro tandem this weekend and then racing on it next weekend in Missouri. Photo of their Calfee on my BLOG.

We are planning the center track system for our new Seven Ti S&S coupled tandem, currently in design phase. And if Shimano made a Di3 system I'd buy it also.

One of my goals in life is to have a bicycle that's worth more than my daily vehicle. I may reach that goal by late June.
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Old 04-30-12, 07:13 PM   #30
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One of my goals in life is to have a bicycle that's worth more than my daily vehicle. I may reach that goal by late June.
Never thought of that goal, but we will achieve it in early August
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Old 05-01-12, 08:24 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by DubT View Post
My current Wipperman 8 speed front chain weighs right at 460 grams, so my estimate of a potential weight savings of about 1/2 pound should be very close.

I am going to upgrade for 2 reasons, a little weight reduction, but primarily for the cleanliness factor. We haul the tandem inside of our Honda Odyssey and we have to stay away from or cover the chain to keep from getting things dirty inside the car.

Wayne
Cleanliness seems like the big benefit of the belt system but it appears to only solve half the problem. I am interested to see if what looks like higher tension than a chain effects BB bearing life over the long haul.

Wayne
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Old 05-01-12, 10:42 AM   #32
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Cleanliness seems like the big benefit of the belt system but it appears to only solve half the problem. I am interested to see if what looks like higher tension than a chain effects BB bearing life over the long haul.

Wayne
If I remember correctly the CDX system does not have to be as tight as the original belt.
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Old 05-01-12, 10:49 AM   #33
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We haul our tandem (with real chains) inside our '97 Honda Acord station wagon.
We put a rug/carpet remnant on the wagon floor to keep things clean.
Works fine for us!
Rudy,

In the Odyssey, we can haul the tandem in a vertical position and still access the center and rear seats. I remove one center seat and fold 1/3 of the rear one down. This past weekend we hauled the tandem and 2 grandkids along with one of their friends. I had to tell them to be careful of the chain. Later this month we are going to Florida for a wedding and one of our daughters will be joining us, she is renting a bike so we will be hauling the tandem, her rental bike and three people. So for us the belt will offer some benefits that you do not require.

Wayne
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Old 05-01-12, 11:41 AM   #34
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Cleanliness seems like the big benefit of the belt system but it appears to only solve half the problem. I am interested to see if what looks like higher tension than a chain effects BB bearing life over the long haul.

Wayne
The cleanliness of the belt system is sufficient onto itself. If the belt otherwise has no glaring drawbacks, it is worth it right there; it needn't solve any other problems.

Maybe not if the tandem is moored in the garage, and you ride straight out the garage door and put it back in, it doesn't matter so much. But if you are transporting, especially in a car, or going to hotels, or bringing it the house, then it is soooo nice not to have that long sync chain hanging out there, a threat to indelibly stain any fabric it touches.

A tandem with a belt is more like a house pet, it is okay inside, or in your car, etc. A sync chain tandem is an outside dog.
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Old 05-01-12, 12:40 PM   #35
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I packed up the older system's 69T rings and 2000mm belt and returned the items to the stores from whence they came - as "incompatible with our tandem". We never did get our hands on the 71T rings which are apparently the size we need for our 2007 Calfee frame.

At this point we can wait and see what transpires with the CDX component availability. Hopefully someone produces a compatible CDX size to the older system's 71T rings and the 2000mm belt.

Meanwhile, you could say we are "beltless", or "have a well hung chain".

Last edited by twocicle; 05-01-12 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 08-14-12, 12:16 PM   #36
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I called Gates yesterday to order a belt and rings. Steve priced the belt at $79 and 69 tooth rings at $66. each. But then he said the CDX system was not available till after Interbike. He said it would be maybe 10% more. I'll wait.
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Old 08-14-12, 12:31 PM   #37
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What is the current understanding regarding compatibility of the extant gates systems and Cannondale road tandems?
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Old 08-14-12, 01:08 PM   #38
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The Co-Motion web site has a nice summary of the requirements, it applies to all bikes.
http://www.co-motion.com/index.php/i...ng_belt_system
Here is the meat:
[h=2]Gates Carbon Drive Checklist[/h]If your tandem meets these criteria, the Gates Carbon Drive may work for you
28.5”/724mm boom tube length (measure from rear bottom bracket to front bottom bracket)
Tandem crankset with 130mm BCD timing crankarms
Same length bottom bracket spindles front and rear
A way to adjust chainline or “beltline” on front and rear cranksets
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Old 08-14-12, 04:23 PM   #39
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What is the current understanding regarding compatibility of the extant gates systems and Cannondale road tandems?
I couldn't get it to fit on my 2009 RT2. The rear pulley wouldn't clear the chain stay (Gossamer cranks).
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Old 08-15-12, 04:47 AM   #40
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I couldn't get it to fit on my 2009 RT2. The rear pulley wouldn't clear the chain stay (Gossamer cranks).
How big was the interference? If it is only 2 or 3 mm then I would certainly try just putting some spacers between the ring and the spider - I had to do this for one of the crank setups that we've tried with our belt drive to get the beltline straight, and it didn't cause any problems.
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Old 08-16-12, 08:59 AM   #41
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How big was the interference? If it is only 2 or 3 mm then I would certainly try just putting some spacers between the ring and the spider - I had to do this for one of the crank setups that we've tried with our belt drive to get the beltline straight, and it didn't cause any problems.
In order to achieve sufficient clearance on the rear stay with our 2007 Calfee frame, I had to install the rings flipped inside-out (with the shield ring to toward the bottom bracket). This yielded a good .5cm clearance. Adding a couple washer spacers with a normal ring orientation still did not give enough clearance. As long as the rings are in-line with each other, it does not matter which way they are installed. If concerned about catching pants, etc in the ring then consider that the new CDX system does not have a ring shield at all - so they must believe it is not necessary for that purpose.

Regardless, at this point I'm waiting for the CDX system.

Last edited by twocicle; 08-16-12 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 08-16-12, 02:09 PM   #42
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How big was the interference? If it is only 2 or 3 mm then I would certainly try just putting some spacers between the ring and the spider - I had to do this for one of the crank setups that we've tried with our belt drive to get the beltline straight, and it didn't cause any problems.
I can't remember the details as it was several months ago that I tried it. I do remember that I tried it in every combination, inside, outside of spider, flipped around, etc and none of them worked. It either hit the chainstay or crank arm and I think any spacer to correct it would need to be more than 2 or 3mm.
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Old 08-16-12, 02:17 PM   #43
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I just pre-ordered the CDX system, Gates hopes to have them available around the end of September. I did not get the exact price. When the parts are ready to ship I will receive a call to get the payment information. If the price is out of site I will cancel the order.

Wayne
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Old 10-01-12, 02:35 PM   #44
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The CDX drive should ship yet today or tomorrow. The price is $75 each for the 69 tooth sprockets and $95 for the belt.

i placed the order directly with Gates.

Wayne
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Old 10-01-12, 03:29 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
I looked at the potential weight savings of the Gates drive vs. a 10 speed chain here.



The weight savings on a Gates are largely dependent on the chain it replaces. If it is a heavy chain the savings can be considerable, since a sync chain is relatively long. With a more expensive 10-speed chain (e.g. Dura-Ace), the savings are relatively modest.
This allows an itemization of the weight savings:

Gates Carbon Drive
Belt...................................105 gm
Belt drive rings (2).............190 gm
Total..................................295 gm


Conventional Timing Drive
TA Specialties 42T chainrings (2)........70 gm.
Timing chain.......................................337 gm
Total.............................................407 gm


Weight savings of a Gates Carbon Drive over a lightweight chainring and chain:

112 gm
0.247 lb
3.95 oz
It is interesting to compare measurements taken by Ritterview to the CoMotion site at :

http://www.co-motion.com/index.php/i...ng_belt_system

Also note the estimated life of the system stated by CoMotion in the quote below.

Quote:
The Gates Carbon Drive Timing Belt System:
Incredibly smooth and more efficient power transfer, immediate response and an incredible weight savings of 283 grams/10 ounces (compared to top quality chain and chainrings) makes the Gates Carbon Drive a natural choice for our top race tandems. The Carbon Drive lasts as much as 10 times longer than traditional chain and chainrings, and never needs oil [Note: Gates’ official word is to expect 2-3x normal chain life- we find this very conservative]. Optional on most tandem models, and exclusive to Co-motion Cycles through 2009.
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Old 10-01-12, 03:47 PM   #46
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I will weigh our current chain (8 speed) and the two Ultegra chain rings and then weigh the new CDX components and will post the results here in a few days.

Wayne
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Old 10-02-12, 03:39 PM   #47
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FWIW, I just called Gates to inquire about their CDX CenterTrack timing ring sizes and confirmed they do not have a 71T, only 69T and 74T (Santana). Unfortunately, my 2007 Calfee (and earlier "gates compatbile" Co-Motions) requires the 71T. Current frame builder specs use the 69T and 74T (Santana).
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Old 10-02-12, 05:21 PM   #48
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FWIW, I just called Gates to inquire about their CDX CenterTrack timing ring sizes and confirmed they do not have a 71T, only 69T and 74T (Santana). Unfortunately, my 2007 Calfee (and earlier "gates compatbile" Co-Motions) requires the 71T. Current frame builder specs use the 69T and 74T (Santana).
just for the sake of curiosity what is the center to center distance between your bottom brackets? Mine is 28.5 inches.

wayne
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Old 10-02-12, 08:34 PM   #49
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just for the sake of curiosity what is the center to center distance between your bottom brackets? Mine is 28.5 inches.

wayne

Something like 72cm (28 5/16"). Falls between the 69 and 74 tooth rings (ie: 71T). When I tried the previous Gates system the belt was quite loose in spite of the eccentric being in the most forward position. I then confirmed with Calfee that the 71T rings were needed for the <=2007 frame years.

Last edited by twocicle; 10-03-12 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 10-02-12, 11:28 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
FWIW, I just called Gates to inquire about their CDX CenterTrack timing ring sizes and confirmed they do not have a 71T, only 69T and 74T (Santana). Unfortunately, my 2007 Calfee (and earlier "gates compatbile" Co-Motions) requires the 71T. Current frame builder specs use the 69T and 74T (Santana).
If your bike is a Co-Motion then the 69 tooth rings should work better than the 71 tooth. We bought a Co-Motion just when the Gates belt was first available, and so got the 71 tooth rings. To get the belt on, we have to have the eccentric in the most rearward position possible, getting it on is awkward (we have to ignore the warnings against rolling the belt on under tension) and then it already has enough tension on it, there is no need to use the eccentric. They soon realized that the 71 tooth rings were a little large, so within a year had started to make the 69 tooth rings instead (and Co-Motion never changed their frame geometry).

I wish that we did have the 69 tooth rings, it would make mounting the belt so much easier, and we could then choose a more forward and lower position for the eccentric, which would help us to achieve a better fit for our bodies on the bike. If the CDX drive is now readily available, I may consider getting one of those in the 69 tooth version.
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