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  1. #26
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    It is purportedly in the cards, but not on the front burner just yet.
    To me the electronic shifting would be one of the best things to happen for tandems. We simply aren't strong enough to ride a double - especially with the amount of climbing we like to do and the steepness of the grades where we ride. With the claims that the front shifting can occur underload and the self trimming nature of the Di2 front shifter - it seems that it would make ALOT of sense for a tandem.

    Unfortunately - I don't see Campy doing it - so it would be the only thing I'd switch to Shimano for.
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  2. #27
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
    To me the electronic shifting would be one of the best things to happen for tandems.
    I gotta tell you, having ridden a tandem with Di2 for a few days in very hilly terrain, it was nice but not life altering. But, then again, having used Campy or a Campy-like SACHs Ergo system on all of our triple-equiped road tandems, we've never had balky front shifting to deal with.

    Don't get me wrong, it was kinda cool to just hit a button and there-you-go: you've shifted. But it's not all that different with Campy Ergo... which is a very different system from Shimano STI. So, I think for the folks who have only used Shimano's STI on their tandems with triple chain rings, Di3 would come as a much hearlded improvement over what they've been using.

    The rear derailleur shifting is the nuts, if only because it eliminates the effect of cable stretch on shifting performance. Which is to say, rear shifting never degrades as cables and housing wears and/or during extreme temperature changes the way it sometimes does on cable shifted systems. Again, not life-altering as we've been very happy with our Campy cable-shifting and, well, Di2 is not without it's little nuances.

  3. #28
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chichi View Post
    There is more to the story than that..........
    The DI2 triple was was originally set up as a non functioning display, the people from Shimano stopped by and said they didn't appreciate it, Erickson removed the front Di2 and replaced it with a mechanical front derailer, again just for display perposes. Neither the half electronic half mechanical or the Di2 triple was functional.
    An interesting story, that! Here is a pic taken on Friday March 2, 2012 at 2:08pm PST, during the judging (larger). I can't tell if that is a Di2 FD. There is a cable sticking out near the FD, which a Di2 presumably wouldn't need.



    The caption:
    Kent Erikson Tandem

    Di2 front & rear derailleurs.

    "stoker rear override sprinter shifting"

    Timing belt (instead of chain)

    Hydraulic rear brake controlled by stoker

    S&S coupled

  4. #29
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    An interesting story, that! I can't tell if that is a Di2 FD. There is a cable sticking out near the FD, which a Di2 presumably wouldn't need.
    Yeah, it's a bit of a kluged-together machine...

    You can see what's going on better in the photo at this link and select Original size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikrace...in/photostream

    That is the internally routed Di2 front derailleur wire you see wrapped around the water bottle cage, but it's not connected to anything in the photo you posted above. In the photo I've linked to you can see that same Di2 cable and the plug that's supposed to go into the front derailleur (and the brains of the Di2 system -- rear Di2 doesn't work without it) sticking up in free space.

    There's a plain-jane mechanical triple front derailleur on the tandem mounted to an FSA seat tube clamp where the Di2 FD should be but, well, can't be since they opted to mount triple chainrings on their show bike. Should have just removed the small chain ring and left the Di2 connected and no one would be to the wiser.

  5. #30
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    We gotta have one of those Co-Motion Carbon disc brake forks.

  6. #31
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Yeah, it's a bit of a kluged-together machine...
    It would be nice to find a photo with the Di2 FD on board, to corroborate the story. From their NAHBS blurb. They were looking, apparently, to show how a savvy stoker can be let in on the action with Di2. But with a ride in vertiginous Santa Cruz on tap, they were loath to part with the triple.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Erickson at NAHBS
    We get a lot of press over the year that pops up as a result of being at the show. It seems to get us a lot of sales, particularly when we get awards. We usually just bring bikes we’ve made for customers rather than special show bikes. We did make the tandem for the show, but I wanted a road tandem and this is my personal bike, finished just before the show. We will ride it for the first real ride in Santa Cruz after the show. It uses electronic shift DI2 and has dual control front and back so my stoker with RAAM experience can shift and brake also.
    The placard with the bike explains further, the Di2 FD for with a double, and a mechanical FD for with a triple. It sorta kinda makes sense...maybe.


  7. #32
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Sounds good, but I don't think the Di2 rear derailleur works without the front derailleur tied into the system...

    Of course, I suspect that means you could run a mechanical FD, plug-up the Di2 FD and strap it to the water bottle cage and the RD wouldn't know the difference.

    Again, the stoker Di2 remote control doesn't strike me as all that bizarre and completely workable with a good team that communicates well. However, I'd love to see / hear how it actually works. I found I had to re-learn the timing of my shifts to get clean gear changes with Di2. Perhaps having your stoker call out shifts will actually create that slight timing delay that you need with Di2?

    As for the rear disc, it'll also work... to a point. On the bright side, since both Kent and Katie are professional off-road level cyclists as well as elite roadies I would guess they know how to manage brakes well enough to avoid over-using the rear disc and/or the rear rim brake. So, it will probably work for them. That said, INMO the Bengal or Avid with a 203mm rotor would have been a better choice.

    Thanks for sharing the new insights.

    Awesome frame.... and it's our size !!!

  8. #33
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    Stoker being able to control shifting/braking, is hardly a new idea.
    Back in 1975 on TOSRV we rode a Follis 10 speed tandem; caught up with a couple on one of the bettter Gitane tandems and Gitane stoker controlled the shifting and rear brake. "Why?" we asked.
    Reply: shorter cable runs, quicker shifting/braking.
    Got into a 'friendly' let's race mode.
    These folks were good, but shifting was not any faster/better because Gitane's captain had to relay command for stoker to shift. . . . G-captain ended up yelling at stoker "Shift +&^#@!"
    We had a good laugh at that!
    Nice to see what is new on the tandem scene!
    Pedal on TWOgether!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  9. #34
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    I gotta tell you, having ridden a tandem with Di2 for a few days in very hilly terrain, it was nice but not life altering. But, then again, having used Campy or a Campy-like SACHs Ergo system on all of our triple-equiped road tandems, we've never had balky front shifting to deal with.

    Don't get me wrong, it was kinda cool to just hit a button and there-you-go: you've shifted. But it's not all that different with Campy Ergo... which is a very different system from Shimano STI. So, I think for the folks who have only used Shimano's STI on their tandems with triple chain rings, Di3 would come as a much hearlded improvement over what they've been using.

    The rear derailleur shifting is the nuts, if only because it eliminates the effect of cable stretch on shifting performance. Which is to say, rear shifting never degrades as cables and housing wears and/or during extreme temperature changes the way it sometimes does on cable shifted systems. Again, not life-altering as we've been very happy with our Campy cable-shifting and, well, Di2 is not without it's little nuances.

    Oh - I agree with regards to how my Campy 10 shifts - it's great. But it's the elimination of the long cables and cable stretch that i'm really talking about.
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  10. #35
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
    Oh - I agree with regards to how my Campy 10 shifts - it's great. But it's the elimination of the long cables and cable stretch that i'm really talking about.
    Like I said, Di2 just didn't blow me away the way I'd expected it to based on all of the press and enthusiast feedback I'd been exposed to.

    Again, I suspect it's because I'm pretty good about staying on top of our equipment and haven't had many shifting issues over the years. Well, and we had the misfortune of starting a ride on the borrowed Di2 tandem where the instructions we'd received about the indicator lights was incorrect and we thought we had a dead battery. This would have otherwise ruined the day for us had we not had our own tandem nearby as a back-up. Like rechargeable lights and computers, it's just another battery that owners will need to be attentive to and/or have a spare on hand to address. Later that day we discovered that the battery was fully charges; however, we discovered the rear derailleur's signal wire would become unplugged as the lead wire was not installed with enough slack to deal with the rear derailleur's full range of motion. Once it was plugged back in, all was fine. Well, mostly fine. It came loose twice on our final ride day. Frankly, I became a quick learner on the system after those little episodes and don't think we'd ever have those kind of a problems as an owner.

    To those who are looking to acquire Di2 (and eventually Di3), do yourself a big favor and read the downloadable installation and user manuals. There are some subtle steps that need to be taken to get the system properly adjusted that "quessing" won't address and those little flashing lights on the controlled will tell you a lot... if you're given or find the right information on what those little lights mean.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 03-07-12 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Sounds good, but I don't think the Di2 rear derailleur works without the front derailleur tied into the system...

    Of course, I suspect that means you could run a mechanical FD, plug-up the Di2 FD and strap it to the water bottle cage and the RD wouldn't know the difference.

    Again, the stoker Di2 remote control doesn't strike me as all that bizarre and completely workable with a good team that communicates well. However, I'd love to see / hear how it actually works. I found I had to re-learn the timing of my shifts to get clean gear changes with Di2. Perhaps having your stoker call out shifts will actually create that slight timing delay that you need with Di2?

    As for the rear disc, it'll also work... to a point. On the bright side, since both Kent and Katie are professional off-road level cyclists as well as elite roadies I would guess they know how to manage brakes well enough to avoid over-using the rear disc and/or the rear rim brake. So, it will probably work for them. That said, INMO the Bengal or Avid with a 203mm rotor would have been a better choice.

    Thanks for sharing the new insights.

    Awesome frame.... and it's our size !!!
    I am sure that if Kent and Katie are both elite level roadies they won't be needing a triple crankset and will use a double with the Di2 front derailleur.

  12. #37
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
    I am sure that if Kent and Katie are both elite level roadies they won't be needing a triple crankset and will use a double with the Di2 front derailleur.
    Relative to their age and classifications: look 'em up...

    Kent Eriksen... still banging handlebars as a master in Steamboat Springs
    Katie Lindquist (-Eriksen)

  13. #38
    Senior Member coloroadie's Avatar
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    When we were looking for our first “real” tandem circa 1986, we visited Moots. They weren’t using titanium at the time, but had a great reputation for building robust and comfortable mountain bikes (the Mootaineer) and the occasional tandem. While at the shop, we saw Kent’s personal tandem, a gorgeous fillet brazed frame with ovalized direct lateral and top tubes. At the end of the top tube behind the stoker’s seatpost, there was a little top tube extension with a brass plate on the end. If you pulled on the plate, a little drawer came out. When I asked Kent what the drawer was for, he said it was a “stash compartment”. I remember thinking, hmmm ... I wonder if this why everyone says Moots are so comfortable. (You can see a picture of a vintage Moots tandem with the compartment here. )

  14. #39
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    Tandems at NAHBS

    Anything new from Calfee?

  15. #40
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdonterri View Post
    Anything new from Calfee?
    Craig's personal creation (sort of a carbonized KidzTandem) that allows him to ride with his son up front...


    A customer's purportedly $19k custom 29er with Di2 converted for MTB use and various other FARKLES...



    A Dragonfly with Gates Belt / Right-Side-Drive, ala Paketa's V2r...


  16. #41
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Craig's personal creation (sort of a carbonized KidzTandem) that allows him to ride with his son up front...


    A customer's purportedly $19k custom 29er with Di2 converted for MTB use and various other FARKLES...



    A Dragonfly with Gates Belt / Right-Side-Drive, ala Paketa's V2r...

    I know these are show bikes, but who decided such a saddle to bar drop looked good anyway. Just makes it look thrown together to see what appears to be a huge drop. I noticed Craig's personal bike has a much nicer set up.

  17. #42
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post



    I know these are show bikes, but who decided such a saddle to bar drop looked good anyway. Just makes it look thrown together to see what appears to be a huge drop. I noticed Craig's personal bike has a much nicer set up.
    If you are referring to the Dragonfly, The ponderous drop is due to the saddle being especially high. I believe the saddle is high so to provide more clearance and thus better viewing of the tandem stoker version of the Calfee BarStem. Mike Moore (who knows an easy mark), didn't hesitate to bring it to my attention. He told me that by using my incumbent Profile Design bar and ENVE seatpost, the cost would be $200 per joint, and $200 to paint, and thus $600.

    It wasn't easy to photograph, but the seatpost being at full extension was helpful.



    I must admit I would like to have mine done up, but not for $600. It would be good to quantify the weight advantage. I have a Calfee adjustable stem, the same bar and seatpost, so a comparison of weight of the setup would be apples to apples.

  18. #43
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    If you are referring to the Dragonfly, The ponderous drop is due to the saddle being especially high. I believe the saddle is high so to provide more clearance and thus better viewing of the tandem stoker version of the Calfee BarStem. Mike Moore (who knows an easy mark), didn't hesitate to bring it to my attention. He told me that by using my incumbent Profile Design bar and ENVE seatpost, the cost would be $200 per joint, and $200 to paint, and thus $600.
    My wife asked me about the Bar Stem and quickly dropped the subject when I said it would be WAY more than she expected because we'd have to do it to a new stem and bar because we are still using the adjustable stem we had before and an aluminum bar. Sure is pretty though.
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  19. #44
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    call me contrary but that thing looks totally disjointed, like blob of black gum or layers of electrical tape holding a cf pipe. different weaves, different colors, blech.

    fancy tech though, no doubt.

    ritterview your setup is no comparison--far better looking and integrated, well thought out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post

  20. #45
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSNYC View Post
    call me contrary but that thing looks totally disjointed, like blob of black gum or layers of electrical tape holding a cf pipe. different weaves, different colors, blech.

    ...ritterview your setup is no comparison--far better looking and integrated, well thought out.
    Well, if it is well thought out, it wasn't my thinking. The credit should mainly Andy H, the graphic designer in Los Angeles, and then to the people at Calfee. I will accept credit for the idea for Calfee to commission a 'livery' design, and badgering Mike Moore until a designer was hired.

    This is Andy H's design they worked from:



    How it turned out in the stoker's compartment.



    If I was to have the BarStem make-over, I would keep the same look, only accounting for wrap to replace the hardware. There would be no weave, as the ENVE seatpost has none.

  21. #46
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    the ENVE seatpost has none.
    So is the Enve post designed to handle the extra stress of the stem? I run the wound up post which is CF over aluminum because - one - it was available from CoMo as a upgrade when we bought the tandem and two - because I was a bit worried about clamping a stem to a regular CF post.
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  22. #47
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
    So is the Enve post designed to handle the extra stress of the stem? ...because I was a bit worried about clamping a stem to a regular CF post.
    No, the Enve post was designed without the least thought for mounting a stem, bar, and with a stoker. It appears to be the favorite of Calfee, however, and Calfee has no little expertise in carbon fiber, so I'll go with that.

  23. #48
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    I like the on bolt adjustment facing the side. Looks like it would be very easy to adjust captain's saddle without loosing the stoker stem.

    http://www.enve.com/seatposts.aspx

  24. #49
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    If you like that general design but are squeamish on carbon, the Moots ti posts have a similar side-mounted design. Adjustability is a piece of cake. It's the easiest-to-work-with post I've ever had (I have one on my road bike). One allen bolt adjusts fore-aft, and another smaller inner bolt adjusts tilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    I like the on bolt adjustment facing the side. Looks like it would be very easy to adjust captain's saddle without loosing the stoker stem.

    http://www.enve.com/seatposts.aspx

  25. #50
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    I gotta tell ya, as nice as all of these other seatposts are you'll be hard pressed to find a better all-around, high-end seatpost than the LH Thomson Masterpiece... for about 1/2 the cost of these others. Just my .02.

    http://bikethomson.com/seatposts/masterpiece/

    We've been through every material and all of the different clamps and at the end of the day, Thomson hits the sweet spot for cost, weight, ease of use and never a second thought about strength issues for stoker stems.

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