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  1. #26
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p2templin View Post
    The TX2 is a true tandem-specific wheelset, with several changes from Spinergy's single line. The XAeros are, well, not TX2s: they're heavier, if nothing else.
    OK, you've piqued my interest.

    Please share what Spinergy has changed on the XAeros that Santana first began using last year that makes the TX2 any more tandem specific vs. the Santana spec XAeros beyond rear axle spacing?

    Quote Originally Posted by p2templin View Post
    I don't think Topolino's design allows them to add a disc mount: the spokes run "around" the hub, and do not attach to it. It'd be no fun watching your hubs come to a screeching halt, but your tires/wheels/spokes keep on rolling as they slice through your hubs.
    As to why they don't offer a disc version, I've never asked and have no idea if the composite hub end that's molded around the spokes would be any more prone to failure from disc braking loads than they are from drive-side or rim braking loads. I'm sure Rafe Schlanger would be willing to share if anyone cared to ask.

    Except Spinergy's website lists no dealers in Kansas or Missouri. Good luck actually getting TX2s (or XAeros) from Precision Tandems...
    Frankly, I'd be more inclined to believe the Precision Tandems and Tandems East websites are simply more up to date than Spinergy's as neither are listed as dealers. If these guys say they have something to offer, they usually have it in stock or know that they can get their hands on it quickly. Clearly, Tandems East has the wheels on hand... although the "Tandems East" sticket next to the Tx2 sticker looks to be something they added as it's no where as nice as the decals on the House of Tandem's Tx2s.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 03-26-12 at 07:33 AM.

  2. #27
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    At the weight mentioned for these wheels am I correct in thinking they have aluminum axles and a aluminum free hub on the rear?
    I looked at Spinergy's web site but the tandem wheels don't seem to be mentioned. The downhill wheels do have an aluminum axle and freehub.
    Let's hope not.

    Even as a lightweight team, we've bent a Phil Wood SL axle and the hard annodized aluminum freehubs on our Topolino's was seriously chewed-up by a DuraAce 10 speed cassette in short order.

    Stainless steel axles and freehubs tend to be the most durable. For gram counters, you can get away with aluminum freehubs but you need to use cassettes with integrated carriers for the higher tooth count rear sprockets, e.g., XT, XTR, SRAM Red, etc or equip your Shimano 10 speed cassettes with American Classic Speed Clips. Titanium freehubs hold up pretty well following the same guidelines for aluminum freehubs, e.g., carrier-mounted sprockets and/or Shimano 10 speed with American Classic Speed Clips.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Please share what Spinergy has changed on the XAeros that Santana first began using last year that makes the TX2 any more tandem specific vs. the Santana spec XAeros beyond rear axle spacing?
    You'd have to call House of Tandems and ask what they're willing to share. They commissioned the product under an exclusive arrangement, and have chosen to wholesale it to Tandems East (HoT will be representing Spinergy at the TE expo next weekend) and daVinci.

    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    As to why they don't offer a disc version, I've never asked and have no idea if the composite hub end that's molded around the spokes would be any more prone to failure from disc braking loads than they are from drive-side or rim braking loads. I'm sure Rafe Schlanger would be willing to share if anyone cared to ask.
    Rim braking loads don't load the hub rotationally. Drive loads would, but I would have to think they're an order of magnitude lower than disc loads.

  4. #29
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p2templin View Post
    You'd have to call House of Tandems and ask what they're willing to share. They commissioned the product under an exclusive arrangement, and have chosen to wholesale it to Tandems East (HoT will be representing Spinergy at the TE expo next weekend) and daVinci.
    Interesting...

    Sadly, we couldn't make it up to Tandems East's open house this year; it's a great event. It would have been interesting to see a Tx2 pulled apart and compare it to what I saw in the XAeros.

  5. #30
    Tx2
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    TandemGeek,
    Please PM me

  6. #31
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    ...As to why they don't offer a disc version, I've never asked and have no idea if the composite hub end that's molded around the spokes would be any more prone to failure from disc braking loads than they are from drive-side or rim braking loads. I'm sure Rafe Schlanger would be willing to share if anyone cared to ask....
    I aksed him that when I was at the shop last summer. He said the only reason that he doesn't have a disk brake compatable hub was he didn't feel the sales numbers would justify the tooling costs. Pretty simple.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  7. #32
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    I'll be very interested as teams rack up more miles on these wheels. We ride our tandem almost exclusively and while the daVinci V-22's have been absolutely bullet-proof in 8000+ miles, I would really like to have a spare wheel set. Buying a second set of "boutique" wheels (e.g., Spinergy) and using the V-22's as spares makes sense in a very cyclist-centric, not-financially-sound sort of way. I'm going through the same thought process on cars - our tandem carrier has 280K miles which is making me a bit nervous; of course the dollars involved in a backup plan our greater.
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  8. #33
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    I aksed him that when I was at the shop last summer. He said the only reason that he doesn't have a disk brake compatable hub was he didn't feel the sales numbers would justify the tooling costs. Pretty simple.
    You know? That sounds pretty familiar, as I seem to recall that someone did ask Rafe that very question at the Tandem East open house back in 2008. Craig Calfee was on hand as well. After the speaking sessions Craig and Rafe did some back of the envelope engineering of how to go about it, but no one seemed all that excited about the market potential.

    Speaking for only myself, I tend to install our disc only when I really think we'll need it, as I just prefer riding with caliper brakes. And, when we're doing that type of riding, I also prefer to use our conventional 36h wheels as well: it's a nice pairing, just as the Topolino & Rolfs are with rim brakes.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 03-26-12 at 06:02 PM.

  9. #34
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    I'll be very interested as teams rack up more miles on these wheels. We ride our tandem almost exclusively and while the daVinci V-22's have been absolutely bullet-proof in 8000+ miles, I would really like to have a spare wheel set. Buying a second set of "boutique" wheels (e.g., Spinergy) and using the V-22's as spares makes sense in a very cyclist-centric, not-financially-sound sort of way. I'm going through the same thought process on cars - our tandem carrier has 280K miles which is making me a bit nervous; of course the dollars involved in a backup plan our greater.
    I will be interested as well. Keep in mind that riders' expectation of wheel durability seems to vary quite a bit. Event wheels that might rack up a few thousand miles in a few years are plenty durable enough for some and others want wheels to go with little or no adjustment until the rim wear demands a rebuild.

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    Tx2
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    TandemGeek,
    forum won't allow reply
    Last edited by Tx2; 03-26-12 at 10:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Check your "notifications" bar at the top of the Forums page. You should see a yellow box indicating you have a PM.
    Yep, Forum won't allow me to reply to you.

  12. #37
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    you have to have 50+ posts before you can send a PM
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

  13. #38
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p2templin View Post
    You'd have to call House of Tandems and ask what they're willing to share. They commissioned the product under an exclusive arrangement, and have chosen to wholesale it to Tandems East (HoT will be representing Spinergy at the TE expo next weekend) and daVinci.



    Rim braking loads don't load the hub rotationally. Drive loads would, but I would have to think they're an order of magnitude lower than disc loads.

    Great to see this actively discussed, because my wife & I are in the process of accumulating an inventory of parts for a new Calfee build up. At the moment there are maybe 20 shipments of parts in transit, including the actual frame & fork

    We are teetering between Rolfs vs Spinergy. The wheels must have rear a disc option as we will be switching back and forth between rim brakes and disc on the rear. The pricing I've sourced between these is really close, so no real issue there. Team weight of < 300lbs and like doing high speed mtn decents.

    It is bizarre that Spinergy does not list any tandem specific wheels on their website. Makes you wonder what their service level would be. AFAIK, Santana tends to spec fairly beefy gear, so I doubt those OEM would have feeble Al axles.

    We were thinking that the Tx2 wheels may be a "boutique" version of the generic XAeros that House of Tandems is sourcing and maybe the only difference is the personalized shop labels. Just a thought. Want to hear the scoop from you guys what the comparison truly is, so looking forward to that feedback.

    As far as performance diffs, I think Mark (TandemGeek) has already discussed key points between these two... weight, handling, comfort. We are also concerned about whether the Spinergy are noisy egg-beaters (re: the thicker spokes) and not very "aero slick" when compared to the Rolfs. On the other hand, how rough is the ride on the Rolfs? We had a set of Sweet-16s on a prior Santana and like them well enough, so I was thinking the Rolfs wouldn't be much different except a lot (~400gm) lighter?
    Last edited by twocicle; 03-26-12 at 02:26 PM.

  14. #39
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    I will be interested as well. Keep in mind that riders' expectation of wheel durability seems to vary quite a bit. Event wheels that might rack up a few thousand miles in a few years are plenty durable enough for some and others want wheels to go with little or no adjustment until the rim wear demands a rebuild.
    Good points. Our use of a set of (barely) go-faster wheels would depend on perceived durability and benefit. If they were a bit more comfortable we would definitely use for longer rides, typically on the weekends, but would change to the standard wheelset during the week: only takes a few minutes and hopefully at most a RD cable tension tweak.
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  15. #40
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    Great to see this actively discussed, because my wife & I are in the process of accumulating an inventory of parts for a new Calfee build up. At the moment there are maybe 20 shipments of parts in transit, including the actual frame & fork

    We are teetering between Rolfs vs Spinergy. The wheels must have rear a disc option as we will be switching back and forth between rim brakes and disc on the rear. The pricing I've sourced between these is really close, so no real issue there. Team weight of < 300lbs and like doing high speed mtn decents.

    It is bizarre that Spinergy does not list any tandem specific wheels on their website. Makes you wonder what their service level would be. AFAIK, Santana tends to spec fairly beefy gear, so I doubt those OEM would have feeble Al axles.

    We were thinking that the Tx2 wheels may be a "boutique" version of the generic XAeros that House of Tandems is sourcing and maybe the only difference is the personalized shop labels. Just a thought. Want to hear the scoop from you guys what the comparison truly is, so looking forward to that feedback.

    As far as performance diffs, I think Mark (TandemGeek) has already discussed key points between these two... weight, handling, comfort. We are also concerned about whether the Spinergy are noisy egg-beaters (re: the thicker spokes) and not very "aero slick" when compared to the Rolfs. On the other hand, how rough is the ride on the Rolfs? We had a set of Sweet-16s on a prior Santana and like them well enough, so I was thinking the Rolfs wouldn't be much different except a lot (~400gm) lighter?
    Here is a link to a previous thread on the Rolfs. Note that is mentioned they have a new design which may have corrected the problem.

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...highlight=Rolf

  16. #41
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Thanks. I've updated the Rolf thread with some info.

    My wife leans toward a conservative bias of black spokes. If Spinergy, I was thinking maybe Yellow, but she found some reports of PBO spokes accumulating grime and light colored ones looking ugly if not regularly washed.

    What do you think?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #42
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    .... wife leans toward a conservative bias of black spokes. ....... What do you think?
    You're asking us to avoid digging a big hole for yourself. Good luck with that.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    Thanks. I've updated the Rolf thread with some info.

    My wife leans toward a conservative bias of black spokes. If Spinergy, I was thinking maybe Yellow, but she found some reports of PBO spokes accumulating grime and light colored ones looking ugly if not regularly washed.

    What do you think?
    We purchased the wheels with black spokes. I liked the white but was also concerned about dirt. I did ask Ric at House of Tandems and his reply was he has not seen or heard of a problem with the colored spokes getting dirty. We still went with black but that was because the stoker/wife said she liked the black better!! Stoker trumps Captain.

    They had a sample wheelset with a rainbow color of all the spokes. I was afraid she was going to want those!!!

  19. #44
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Just a couple of observations....

    Rolfs... harsh when compared to conventional, Topolino or Spinergy. But, if you have a composite or Mg frame, you won't notice. More aero than most other boutique wheels, but that only comes into play when you're pushing 20+ MPH. Below that, other things have a much bigger impact on your aero drag... like the size of your bodies and riding position.

    Topolino's... Top shelf technology for comfort and stability: hard to know they're not conventional wheels. Just not very Aero. We've got 5k miles on ours and the rear wheel has been rock solid. 1st front wheel had some issues, but 2nd has been trouble free. We like these a lot.

    Spinergy... Hard to distinguish from the Topolino's. Very comfortable, very stable, very light. As for light colored spokes, the wind swept face of the white spokes on the Santana Beyond we rode for 3 days in Chattanooga for about 120 miles had a nice coating of dirt: YRMV. Very nice wheels.

    Conventional 36h White Ind hubs w/Velocity Rims... about the same weight as Rolfs, very stable but not very sexy. However, reliability is as good as the builder: good builder = worry-free wheels that are easily as Aero as the Topolino & Spinergy wheels, but about a pound heavier. Far more comfortable than the Rolfs on steel frames.

    Now, all of these observations come from someone who can tell when their saddle is a couple of millimeters out of adjustment, when their tires are 10-15 lbs low on air pressure, or who can pretty much estimate steering trail from the handling of a given tandem. I know folks who have a hard time knowing that they're riding on a tire that's going flat, never mind how much influence frame deflection might have on how their tandem handles.

    Bottom Line: Go with that feels good to you and what makes you feel good. Or, as I've usually said: ride what you like and like what you ride. Lots of good options out there to choose from.

  20. #45
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    So no breakdowns / deficiency complaints about the Spinergy. Interesting.

    If we just knew more about them like what is the diff between those Tx2 (HoT) vs XAeros (Precision).

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    So no breakdowns / deficiency complaints about the Spinergy. Interesting.

    If we just knew more about them like what is the diff between those Tx2 (HoT) vs XAeros (Precision).
    Call Ric at HoT and I am sure he would elaborate. You can also call Precision and compare answers.

  22. #47
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    I confirmed with Spinergy Sales direct and also received additional information from other sources.

    Here's a rundown of my notes:

    The Spinergy Tx2 label is simply a HoT rebrand sticker (see distibutor notes below) and otherwise the same wheel as the XAeros tandem wheels. This is a new Spinergy tandem specific product offering that is not on Spinergy's website yet. The 24 spoke Tx2 are otherwise identical spec wheels to the XAeros Light 24 wheels advertised elsewhere.

    The 29'r 32 hole rim is 25mm wide vs. the 24 hole 19mm width rim used for Xaerolite builds.

    The wheels use 6902 bearings and fit a rather large 15mm diameter hollow Aluminum axle, the same diameter as a current White Ind hub axle. The axle end allows it to fit into the dropout so unrelated to axle diameter. The rear wheel (road 700c) is designed on a 15mm platform using 2- 6902, 15x7mm sealed bearings.

    Hadley makes the freehub while Spinergy makes the hubshells. Cassette hub is a 3 paw unit by Hadley and contains 2 MORE 15x7mm sealed bearings. The alloy hub is protected by a 38mm hardened steel lockring.

    Spinergy will be providing a standard skewer of some sort, but currently not available from them. HoT is now shipping the wheelset with Ti axle skewers and a Spinergy branded quick releae lever.

    Need to nail down the warranty info, ie: get it in writing. Spinergy said 2 years, but their only online doc says just 1 year. I guess it is what it is and doesn't change the wheels themselves. My Visa card provides a 2x warranty... of course I'd love 4 years total!

    Pricing is set by Spinergy at a minimum of $899 for the XAeros / Tx2 24 spoke wheels. Unknown about other wheel sizes/types.

    I believe the sourcing story is that HoT apparently worked directly with Spinergy to get a "tandem rated" wheelset officially created. HoT is the N. Amer distributor for all the tandem wheel models and using the "Tx2" label to track these regionally and where they were sourced.

    ---

    The above is to the best of my knowledge, but I must state that I am not affiliated with any vendor or mfr and thus you should consider this information as only my understanding of the details.

    ---

    BTW: I just bought a set from Ric at HoT!
    Last edited by twocicle; 03-28-12 at 07:01 PM.

  23. #48
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post

    The wheels use 6902 bearings and fit a rather large 15mm diameter hollow Aluminum axle, the same diameter as a current White Ind hub axle. The axle end allows it to fit into the dropout so unrelated to axle diameter. The rear wheel (road 700c) is designed on a 15mm platform using 2- 6902, 15x7mm sealed bearings.

    Hadley makes the freehub while Spinergy makes the hubshells. Cassette hub is a 3 paw unit by Hadley and contains 2 MORE 15x7mm sealed bearings. The alloy hub is protected by a 38mm hardened steel lockring.
    Nice report on the specs of the wheels. I am sure you will enjoy the ride. House of Tandems is a great shop.

    For me the lower weight of an aluminum axle and freehub is not worth the possible durability issues but I put more importance on durability than many people on this forum. Losing some weight off our 2,000 gram conventional wheels sure is tempting.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 03-30-12 at 09:04 AM.

  24. #49
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    If all reports are true, there have been ZERO failures of these wheels including the oversize AL axle. Likely that part would be respec'd if something ever did arise, however todate, even the 29'r mtn bike bashers have not managed to do it.

  25. #50
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    My comment relates more to my personal preferences and was not meant as a judgement that the wheels were bad wheels. As with any new product from me it is really too early to tell. I don't think that there is a right or wrong here. We all make component decisions based on our planned use, expected useful life, and personal biases. As noted, I am more conservative than many on this list but there others out there like me too. This forum has provided am important service by providing specs not listed on the company's web site so we can each decide.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 03-30-12 at 09:05 AM.

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