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  1. #51
    Senior Member diabloridr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    If all reports are true, there have been ZERO failures of these wheels including the oversize AL axle.
    Umm, the dataset from this board comprises a grand total three users, two of whom have only recently acquired the Tx2 wheels while the third rode a set for a weekend.

    Not what I would use to draw conclusions about durability for any product.

    But perhaps you have other data you can share.

  2. #52
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diabloridr View Post
    Umm, the dataset from this board comprises a grand total three users, two of whom have only recently acquired the Tx2 wheels while the third rode a set for a weekend.

    Not what I would use to draw conclusions about durability for any product.

    But perhaps you have other data you can share.
    Imagine, indeed there is a world beyond this forum... err, board.

    Call HoT and discuss directly with the distributor and who has direct 1st hand knowledge of such detail.

    But you are correct in one subtle point, once we get better riding weather I'll likely be another non-poster for awhile. Sad I know, the stats will decline
    Last edited by twocicle; 03-30-12 at 04:33 PM.

  3. #53
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Actually my primary concern is not a complete failure but rather a shorter life span or higher maintenance schedule than a wheel with steel axle and freehub. This is where personal preference can come into play. Different owners have a different desires on how often they want to replace parts on their bikes. This is true of tires, freehubs, wheels and even whole bikes.


    Below is a quote from Spinergy's technical FAQ:


    Why is my freehub body dragging?

    For hubs that developed this problem over time, the axle or sleeve is simply worn down. To fix this, replace axle or sleeve to restore freehub body clearance. This is a normal long term wear pattern that can be accelerated by loose end caps, dirt contamination or heavier riders. To clean hub internals, undo both end caps and remove freehub body. Thoroughly clean all visible areas as well as the freehub itself. Once cleaned, apply small amount of medium weight oil to the pawls on the freehub body (they are on the back of the freehub, held in by the spring). Next, apply a light oil to the internals of the hubshell. Finally, put the wheel back together and torque BOTH end caps to 100 in-lbs
    .

    from:
    http://www.spinergy.com/catalog/faq/...lpCategoryID=3


    Increasing the diameter of the axle as was mentioned earlier will help protect against breakage but the aluminum material will still be subject to wear because it is a relatively soft metal. For some including axle replacement in a routine maintenance schedule solves this issue. Ok for some but not for me. Likewise freehub replacement is easily done but not something that I want to do regularly. In addition for those that plan on using their parts a long time parts availability can also be a concern.

    It is good that people know the specs of what they are buying. More durable often means heavier and that is the tradeoff here.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 03-30-12 at 03:06 PM.

  4. #54
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    Actually my primary concern is not a complete failure but rather a shorter life span or higher maintenance schedule than a wheel with steel axle and freehub. This is where personal preference can come into play. Different owners have a different desires on how often they want to replace parts on their bikes. This is true of tires, freehubs, wheels and even whole bikes.


    Below is a quote from Spinergy's technical FAQ:


    Why is my freehub body dragging?

    For hubs that developed this problem over time, the axle or sleeve is simply worn down. To fix this, replace axle or sleeve to restore freehub body clearance. This is a normal long term wear pattern that can be accelerated by loose end caps, dirt contamination or heavier riders. To clean hub internals, undo both end caps and remove freehub body. Thoroughly clean all visible areas as well as the freehub itself. Once cleaned, apply small amount of medium weight oil to the pawls on the freehub body (they are on the back of the freehub, held in by the spring). Next, apply a light oil to the internals of the hubshell. Finally, put the wheel back together and torque BOTH end caps to 100 in-lbs.

    from:
    http://www.spinergy.com/catalog/faq/...lpCategoryID=3


    Increasing the diameter of the axle as was mentioned earlier will help protect against breakage but the aluminum material will still be subject to wear because it is a relatively soft metal. For some including axle replacement in a routine maintenance schedule solves this issue. Ok for some but not for me. Likewise freehub replacement is easily done but not something that I want to do regularly. In addition for those that plan on using their parts a long time parts availability can also be a concern.

    It is good that people know the specs of what they are buying. More durable often means heavier and that is the tradeoff here.
    You didn't specify which wheel model that blurb may apply to. However in the case of the tandem wheels, as detail provided earlier, these were specifically designed for tandem loads and utilize many component upgrades including the Hadley freehub and the multiple heavier duty bearing sets.

    My bet is that slipping in a steel axle as a replacement (if and when replacement is needed on these wheels) could be simple matter. All hypothetical of course. Since the oversized AL axle is almost entirely for loadbearing, doubtful we'll ever find out... we're well under 280lbs as a team - 98lb stoker and do not do loaded touring (which is probably out of intended usage scope for a set of wheels like this).

    Anyway, I'd rather opt for the possiblity of the occassional maintenance swap of an axle than catastrophic failure of another wheel. Not'in is perfect 'cept my wife
    Last edited by twocicle; 03-31-12 at 09:46 AM.

  5. #55
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    I followed up with an inquiry. Apparently both AL & steel axles were tested with this hub design (it is a combined system). You really think they wouldn't have put a steel axle in there if they thought it needed one at this performance level? You know somebody will always gripe regardless. We'll see how it turns out in 1-2 years after we rack up some miles of our own.

    BTW, the 2012 Spinergy warranty is 2 years after all - so I got 4 with my CC
    Last edited by twocicle; 03-31-12 at 09:45 AM.

  6. #56
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Not to be mis-construed from an earlier posting, I do believe that an aluminum or SL axle will work just fine on a tandem under the right conditions, as will an aluminum freehub. However, I also tend to believe that steel axles and freehubs should be the default for most tandem wheels, only because they are more durable and, lets face it: it's not just the svelte racing teams that tend to go and buy the lightweight racing gear. By all means, wheel & hub makers should always be willing to offer the aluminum axles and freehubs as a free swap-out upon request of the buyer or perhaps even as a recommendation by the seller. But, at least that invites the discussion between the seller and buyer regarding the conditions under which the wheels will be used.

    The wrong conditions are for heavy teams, i.e., pushing upper 300's and over 400's or teams doing loaded touring who ride in hilly locations, or even lightweight teams who will be doing very steep climbs in very low gears. Off-road tandems with teams of any weight that will be used for steep climbs will also test the limits of an aluminum axle. Like I said, we bent an SL axle @ our 280lb team weight, but we did that on a 20% grade using a 30/32 gear. And, by bent, it was one of those things that you discover during maintenance. In our case, it was later that day when I went to change cassettes and found the axle didn't want to slide out of the hub the way it always had before. Once I had it out, the roll-test on a granite countertop confirmed the axle had been bent.

    As for aluminum freehubs, and as noted earlier they will work as well, so long as cassettes that use an integrated carrier or other manufacturing technique that "fuses" the largest, low-gear sprockets together are used where the loads on individual sprockets are distributed over the freehub body. Again, our Topolino's have a hard-annodized freehub. It works fine and is unfazed when we use XT and XTR cassettes. It was the Ultegra 10 speed cassettes with their missing splines and non-fused sprockets that wreaked havoc on the soft freehub material. However, after the fact I discovered American Classic's Speed Clips which essentially put back the missing splines and distribute loads over a wider portion of the freehub to mitigate the risk of damage.

    Bottom Line: There are very few if any inappropriate components for a tandem, only inappropriate applications and uses.

    Everyone needs to look at their needs and expectations when making component choices. What works well for one team may or may not work well for another, which is why you always want to peel back the onion with questions when evaluating products.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 03-31-12 at 07:25 AM.

  7. #57
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tip about American Classics - Speed Clips. One of the cassettes I was planning to use is a Ultegra 11-28. Good idea to use these clips as I have noticed substantial marring on my single and tandem freehubs. May as well start with these clips to prevent that from happening again.

    http://www.amclassic.com/documents/h...eedUltegra.pdf
    http://www.amclassic.com/store/page19.html

  8. #58
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    I also have used American Classic clips and recommend them. For me they did not eliminate all marking of a steel free hub but keep it at an acceptable level. DT Swiss hardened steel free hubs are great and don't seem to require them with Ultegra cassettes.

    Use the right tool for the job is a good rule.

    We are a 280-290 lb team but are pretty hard on wheels for our size. We climb short but very steep grades in gears sometimes below 1:1. We also have been known to shift up or down when out of the saddle which really puts some stress on the free hub and axle. I know we tough on wheels and that is why I pursued this line of inquiry.

    I hope everyone that bought Spinergy wheels enjoys them and keeps us informed of the good and bad as time goes on. Actual user feedback is one of the most important functions of a forum like this.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 03-31-12 at 11:20 AM.

  9. #59
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Got them sooooo quick!

    I'm still not sure if my digital scale is weighing things on the heavy side (possibly 30-40gm based on a Ultegra crankset I recently weighed), but just for the record here is what my wheels registered as with my scale:

    Front: wheel 720gm; skewer: 56gm (non-Ti)
    Rear: wheel 948gm; skewer: 50gm (Ti = less than the front!) 145mm spacing.
    Rim tape x2: 16gm
    ---------------------------------
    So the bare wheels are: 1668gm
    Total with skewer & tape: 1806gm

    I mounted some Michelin Pro Race 700x25c we had in a storage box for the last 4 years. Everything else we have here is 23c.

    Regardless of my scale's calibration (on the + side), it is interesting to note the rear wheel weighs only 228gm more than the front, and that is with a disc compatible rear hub plus the freehub and of course a wider spacing.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by twocicle; 04-02-12 at 01:29 PM.

  10. #60
    Senior Member
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    Put 60+ miles on our ride today on the wheels. We are a heavy team at about 340. Had a 2 mile section of some very rough chip seal road but the wheels really took a lot of the vibration out.

    See you went with black. Can never go wrong with black!

    Is it the light or do those tires have a gray sidewall?
    Last edited by moonwalker; 04-01-12 at 09:33 PM. Reason: add comment

  11. #61
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
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    I used to manage R&D for an smallish aerospace company so I love early adopters. What we need is a 10,000 mile/year team riding these things.
    Rick T
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    daVinci Joint Venture

  12. #62
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonwalker View Post
    Put 60+ miles on our ride today on the wheels. We are a heavy team at about 340. Had a 2 mile section of some very rough chip seal road but the wheels really took a lot of the vibration out.

    See you went with black. Can never go wrong with black!

    Is it the light or do those tires have a gray sidewall?
    Grey, silica rubber compound me thinks. They have a low max pressure of only 7 bars (102psi) but are very firm at that pressure.

    Do you have the standard 19mm wide rims (road wheels)?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
    I used to manage R&D for an smallish aerospace company so I love early adopters. What we need is a 10,000 mile/year team riding these things.
    We are a 7000 mile-per-year team and so far we have 300 miles on our Spinergy wheels. At this point the captain said they feel lighter and more nimble, and are rock-solid on steep curvy canyon descents. I, the stoker, don't think they have changed the ride in terms of vibration or comfort, probably because I'm on a Ti frame. I perceive that I can feel subtle weight shifts (getting a water bottle, stretching) a little more with the Spinergy wheels. They seem a bit noisier than the conventional wheels we had, but that's no big deal (if it exists at all). We will be removing these wheels to do a self-supported 550-mile tour beginning next week and in May we'll put the Spinergy back on. I think putting them on the second time will make it more obvious for me to tell the difference in ride quality (after I have switched back to the conventional wheels for the tour). With saddles and other things I need one switch back to the original equipment to really put my finger on the differences between the two. Will report back later in May after we put a few hundred more miles on the Spinergys.

  14. #64
    Senior Member diabloridr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdtompki View Post
    I used to manage R&D for an smallish aerospace company so I love early adopters. What we need is a 10,000 mile/year team riding these things.
    And reporting back after 3 to 6 months.

  15. #65
    Senior Member diabloridr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    Imagine, indeed there is a world beyond this forum... err, board.

    Call HoT and discuss directly with the distributor and who has direct 1st hand knowledge of such detail.
    But they are not users....

  16. #66
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikefor2 View Post
    We are a 7000 mile-per-year team and so far we have 300 miles on our Spinergy wheels. At this point the captain said they feel lighter and more nimble, and are rock-solid on steep curvy canyon descents. I, the stoker, don't think they have changed the ride in terms of vibration or comfort, probably because I'm on a Ti frame. I perceive that I can feel subtle weight shifts (getting a water bottle, stretching) a little more with the Spinergy wheels. They seem a bit noisier than the conventional wheels we had, but that's no big deal (if it exists at all). We will be removing these wheels to do a self-supported 550-mile tour beginning next week and in May we'll put the Spinergy back on. I think putting them on the second time will make it more obvious for me to tell the difference in ride quality (after I have switched back to the conventional wheels for the tour). With saddles and other things I need one switch back to the original equipment to really put my finger on the differences between the two. Will report back later in May after we put a few hundred more miles on the Spinergys.
    Interesting post that points out the difficulty for any rider to tease out the results of a change in components. It would be interesting to blind fold a stoker so that they are unaware of which wheels are used and do a ride with each set of wheels with identical tires and air pressure over the some course at the same speed to see what effect if any the wheels have.

    I don't think however that I could ever get my stoker to do such a test.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by diabloridr View Post
    But they are not users....
    ?????????????????????????


    Where did that come from?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    Interesting post that points out the difficulty for any rider to tease out the results of a change in components. It would be interesting to blind fold a stoker so that they are unaware of which wheels are used and do a ride with each set of wheels with identical tires and air pressure over the some course at the same speed to see what effect if any the wheels have.

    I don't think however that I could ever get my stoker to do such a test.
    We actually went to great lengths to make the first rides on the Spinergy be comparable to the last ride on the conventional wheels. We took the tires (1000 miles on them) and tubes off of the conventional wheels and put them on the Spinergy. We took the same exact route that we had done the previous day on the conventional wheels. We tried not to ride "harder". That first ride was only about 35 miles, but since then we have done more riding to get up to the 300 miles on the Spinergys. I'll be interested to see what I think in about a month when the Spinergys go back on after our trip. Since I had no complaints about ride quality before, it will be interesting to see what I think when we switch back again. I am also thinking about giving up the Thudbuster, but am committed to making no changes until we have more time to see what we think about the new wheels. Actually riding each set of wheels without the Thudbuster at some point might be an interesting test as well. No blindfold for me though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by diabloridr View Post
    But they are not users....
    Wrong. They haven't had miles lately because of a dog/bike incident, but they ride, and they ride Spinergy TX2. Bottom photo on their website should be sufficient proof.

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    We have been riding the Spinergy Tx2's for a thousand mile on our Ti tandem.
    Our team weights in at 370 lbs and the wheels held up so far and do not feel spongy on corners.
    Both captain and stoker felt they rode better than our Velocity Dyads with Phil Wood hubs 48 rear/40 front.
    After reading this thread I installed my

    Dyads with the same tires (Bontrager 700 x 28 Race Light Hardcase) same pressure and did not tell my wife/stoker.
    About five mile into a regular route I told her I put different tires on the Tx2's and it should make for smoother ride.
    After a few more miles she though ride was somewhat better.
    (note what a good sales talk can do)
    Next I ask an experenced tandem rider to do a six mile test ride on a rough road.
    First with the 48/40 Dyads then returned to the car and installed the Tx2s with the same tires and pressure.
    We tried to ride the same speed and hit same rough spots.
    The other rider said both rode well but he would be hard pressed to say which were best.
    We don't reget buying theTx2s and plan to use them for all our riding except loaded touring.
    If the Tx2s hold up we should have 5000 -6000 miles on them by end of year
    My wife likes the looks of theTx2s (black) and they make us feel faster.

  21. #71
    Senior Member diabloridr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p2templin View Post
    They haven't had miles lately because of a dog/bike incident, but they ride, and they ride Spinergy TX2.
    Great.

    Now we have six datapoints, though still none for extended time or miles as far as I can see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diabloridr View Post
    Great.

    Now we have six datapoints, though still none for extended time or miles as far as I can see.
    Ja Vol. I agree. Six data points is no data at all, IMHO. But....No big negatives early on is a good thing too.

  23. #73
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Below is what I get from this discussion:

    No bad results reported here so far. That is a good thing but inconclusive at this point.

    Some honest buyers said:
    bikefor2

    I, the stoker, don't think they have changed the ride in terms of vibration or comfort,
    and

    1tandem

    The other rider said both rode well but he would be hard pressed to say which were best
    It doesn't look like they are magical wheels that are obviously better to the casual observer. Their main advantage appears to be low weight and carbon fiber bling. To early to tell about long term durability.

    At this stage they look like a good buy for early adopters willing to try new designs.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 04-03-12 at 06:15 AM.

  24. #74
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Hmm, no carbon fiber bling on these wheels. PBO (spokes) = polyphenylene bensobisoxazole.

    Also, so far only regular roadies (bar a few gravel/rough roads) have checked in here. It would be equally interesting to hear from the 29er crowd too. All things being equal on these Spinergy wheels except for the increased rim width, the 29er offroading should be the ultimate abuse test. Then if there are other 29er wheels for comparison (Dyad, Rolf, etc? probably not these).

    It is surprising that a wheel this light (1-2lbs+ lighter than convention wheels) and seemingly durable (no reported failures) can be this reasonably priced. I commented to my wife that I thought for this level of equipment, typically you'd expect to pay $500 more (ie: the original Topolino pricing for example). Who knows if this "introductory" pricing on the Spinergys will last, or if it's the new, low target others will have to match.

  25. #75
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    Hmm, no carbon fiber bling on these wheels. PBO (spokes) = polyphenylene bensobisoxazole.

    Also, so far only regular roadies (bar a few gravel/rough roads) have checked in here. It would be equally interesting to hear from the 29er crowd too. All things being equal on these Spinergy wheels except for the increased rim width, the 29er offroading should be the ultimate abuse test. Then if there are other 29er wheels for comparison (Dyad, Rolf, etc? probably not these).

    It is surprising that a wheel this light (1-2lbs+ lighter than convention wheels) and seemingly durable (no reported failures) can be this reasonably priced. I commented to my wife that I thought for this level of equipment, typically you'd expect to pay $500 more (ie: the original Topolino pricing for example). Who knows if this "introductory" pricing on the Spinergys will last, or if it's the new, low target others will have to match.
    I stand corrected on the "carbon bling" comment and amend it to "high tech bling".

    I don't ride a mountain bike but wonder if mountain bikes are harder on wheels than a tandem. It seems to me that once standard tandem 140mm rear drop outs were replaced by 145mm due to wheel durability issues but 135mm appears adequate for mountain bike use.

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