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  1. #1
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    3x the Fun: First Tandem Rally on a Triplet

    We just finsihed doing our first tandem rally on a triplet... what a hoot! We were 1/2 of a six-pack at this past weekend's Alabama Tandem Weekend.

    More details to follow on the blog as soon as I write the Saturday/Sunday report; intro and Friday is up now.

    Great job by our hosts Tim & Bev from Sylacauga.




  2. #2
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    First ride on a triplet, or just the first rally on a triplet?

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briwasson View Post
    First ride on a triplet, or just the first rally on a triplet?
    First serious, long ride and first 3-day rally on a triplet.

    Note that I was fortunate enough to have low-profile, experienced stokers and that the tailgunner -- Brenda, who co-owns the Co-Motion PeriScope Trident were were riding -- has logged many, many miles stoking their triplet with her S.O. James and a wide variety of guest captains and stokers. Those factors contributed greatly to the fun factor and extremely pleasant weekend of riding that we enjoyed.

    The short green bus -- 5'0" - 5'2" - 5'8" -- and easily under 400lbs for total trio weight.



    Note also that the trio riding the yellow Co-Motion triplet could easily smoke us at will... We just happend to be ahead when these photos were snapped as we approached "Big Daddy's" at the 33-mile mark on Saturday's ride. I had food on my mind, as my tank was empty after chasing the tall yellow bus most of the morning who were riding with one REALLY strong team from Florida, another very strong team from North Carolina and trading wheels with a very nice team from Ohio. Debbie and I had our moments over the weekend and feel we rode well, but just don't have the base miles and fitness needed to run with the really big dogs. Having Brenda on the back of the rig was like having a turbo charger on climbs, as she'd pop-up out of the saddle and just kick it: awesome!
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 03-26-12 at 02:12 PM.

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    Sounds like fun! One of these days I want to get three adults on our triple and see how fast we can go. Right now we have our 7-year-old son in the middle, which is fun and at least a net-positive power boost compared with the days when we pulled him a trailer with the tandem.

    Our Santana Cabrio is the exact same yellow as that Co-Motion triplet. It just makes the "school bus" comments we get all the more frequent.

  5. #5
    Senior Member CaptainHaddock's Avatar
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    Man, that looks like you guys had great weather! Me personally, I'm hoping that we've had the last of our snow for the winter. So how did the triplit feel in-comparison to your tandem?

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock View Post
    So how did the triplit feel in-comparison to your tandem?
    Apples & Oranges....

    Obviously, getting on/off is quite a different production given that the middle stoker has to deal with handlebars and potentially a rider sitting behind their saddle that just aren't an issue on a two-place tandem.

    Starting and stopping, at least with the two experienced stokers that I enjoyed on our weekend wasn't all that different, other than having to be better about keeping the tandem absolutely upright and getting both feet down for longer stops. On the two-place tandems, Debbie knows to off-set her weight to theleft when I put my left foot down and lean the bike to the right: that's a bozo-no-no on the Triplet...

    Crusing along, the difference in going from a two-place to a three-place tandem is reminiscent of going from a single bike to a tandem... it just gets smoother, faster and more stable at speed. In the rollers, again it's like going from a single to a tandem where the added weight gives you a lot of momentum that allows you to pass the two-place tandems as they lose their downhill momentum before the heavier Triplets. True climbing wasn't all that bad for us, but then again we were a very light trio and the 26" Triplet had very low gearing.

    Cornering and turning, yeah... that's very different. In some respects, it's not a fair comparison because of the way that 26" PeriScope Trident was set-up, i.e., running VERY large diameter 26x1.5" tires vs. something closer to a 1.25" or a 28mm tire. I also never got completely comfortable with the steering geometry. So, no big change for gradual curves; however,as someone who likes to be aggressive through corners, the Triplet took a lot more finess and a much wider line through the apex to deal with the longer wheelbase. Guiding the tandem around parking lots and such at slow speed also demanded a lot more attention and finess. I can only imagine what a handful it would have been with stokers who were my equal in size.

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    Senior Member CaptainHaddock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Apples & Oranges....
    Obviously, getting on/off is quite a different production given that the middle stoker has to deal with handlebars and potentially a rider sitting behind their saddle that just aren't an issue on a two-place tandem.
    Starting and stopping, at least with the two experienced stokers that I enjoyed on our weekend wasn't all that different, other than having to be better about keeping the tandem absolutely upright and getting both feet down for longer stops. On the two-place tandems, Debbie knows to off-set her weight to theleft when I put my left foot down and lean the bike to the right: that's a bozo-no-no on the Triplet...
    So within the context of stopping & holding the triplet, did you feel like the added mass of the third stoker greatly increased your stopping distance / ability? Then were you able to hold the frame & additional stoker with more or less the same ease or did you find yourself fighting to hot it? (I know you said you were more cautious but still...) And finally so how about frame flex (if any) given the extended length and weight?

    Sorry for further questions, but I truly love the idea of truly long bikes!

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Added mass and stopping: the bike we rode had plenty of stopping power but, then again, we weren't doing any steep descents where heavy braking was required.

    Holding the tandem upright: didn't take much more effort vs. the tandem; however, I adjusted my technique to always go with both feet down at stops just to be on the safe side.

    The steel PeriScope frame: didn't feel whippy to me, but Debbie definitely felt a lot of frame deflection in the mid-section of the frame. Shifting was fabulous, so that seems to suggest there wasn't a whole lot of frame flex even when climbing steep hills with the rear stoker out of the saddle and hammering. My Debbie wasn't comfortable enough to stand and pedal so I can't report on how the frame felt under a team sprint out of the saddle.
    Last edited by TandemGeek; 03-30-12 at 11:00 AM.

  9. #9
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Fun! The three different femur angles in the green bus profile are a good illustration of my desire for more variation in tandem crank lengths. Great photos.

  10. #10
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Fun! The three different femur angles in the green bus profile are a good illustration of my desire for more variation in tandem crank lengths. Great photos.
    The point is further illustrated by the difference femur to pelvis angle for the three riders. The taller the rider the less acute an angle. The shortest rider's femur is almost level while the captain's slopes downward.

  11. #11
    Senior Member swc7916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    The point is further illustrated by the difference femur to pelvis angle for the three riders. The taller the rider the less acute an angle. The shortest rider's femur is almost level while the captain's slopes downward.
    This is obviously a function of both the crankarm length and the seat height... So, what are the ideal angles - both at the top and at the bottom of the pedal stroke?
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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    The shortest rider's femur is almost level while the captain's slopes downward.
    Might want to check out the angle of the right & left feet as the cranks go through the top/bottom of the pedal stroke in that photo, and the one before it where the cranks are coming to the bottom of the power stroke.

    IMHO, there are just too many different things to factor into decisions about bike fit and component dimensions to capture in formulas or "rules of thumb". Everyone needs to either work out their preferences over time by experimenting and/or worth with a good bicycle fitter or coach who can spot problems with "fit" or "technique" that can be addressed.

    Case in point, my wife simply tends to ride with her toes pointed most of the time, except when she's pushing a big gear, and then she drops her ankle. Even our very experienced bike fitter has never been able to capture that because she doesn't replicate what she does on the road (as evidenced by many impromptu photos taken during tandem rallies) on stationary bikes, to include the Serotta sizing cycles.

  13. #13
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Might want to check out the angle of the right & left feet as the cranks go through the top/bottom of the pedal stroke in that photo, and the one before it where the cranks are coming to the bottom of the power stroke.

    IMHO, there are just too many different things to factor into decisions about bike fit and component dimensions to capture in formulas or "rules of thumb". Everyone needs to either work out their preferences over time by experimenting and/or worth with a good bicycle fitter or coach who can spot problems with "fit" or "technique" that can be addressed.

    Case in point, my wife simply tends to ride with her toes pointed most of the time, except when she's pushing a big gear, and then she drops her ankle. Even our very experienced bike fitter has never been able to capture that because she doesn't replicate what she does on the road (as evidenced by many impromptu photos taken during tandem rallies) on stationary bikes, to include the Serotta sizing cycles.
    I fully agree with the no rules of thumb comment. I also think that it applies to the rule of thumb that most builders seem to use when selecting stock tandem components that states that all tandem riders regardless of size should use cranks from 170 to 175mm in length.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 03-29-12 at 02:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock View Post
    So how did the triplit feel in-comparison to your tandem?
    I've ridden many miles on both a three person tandem (aka, triplet) and on a two-person tandem. Mark's comments are spot on.

    Getting on/off and starting/stopping -- you get used to it over time and you develop all the habits needed to be safe and smooth. As for standing still, it's no more difficult to balance a triplet than a tandem, as long as the stokers keep their weight centered.

    Top speed - As Mark noted, "it just gets smoother, faster and more stable at speed." My well-designed Meridian triplet with oversized tubes is exceptionaly stable at high speeds. I've had it approaching 60 mph a few times and it felt like it could go 70 or more, with no wobble. Whenever I exceed 45 mph, it feels like a train running on rails.

    Low speed turning -- again, it just requires getting used to the extra turning radius and balance. I practice very slow, minimal radius turns by setting the bike in a fairly high gear, putting on the brakes and sort of doing a track stand while cutting the wheel dramatically to the right or the left. At first it feels like you will fall over, but with practice, you can manage a fairly short radius turn. In that scenario, the bike is hardly going forward and the third person feels almost as if they are sliding sideways - sort of a weird feeling, I'm told.

    High speed cornering and turning in gradual curves-- I cut most turns pretty wide and tend to brake a lot, just to be sure. I have the safety of two human being in my hands, after all. Nonetheless, with practice, a long sweeping turn can be taken at a very high speed.

    Stopping - I have been told that the addition of the third person does not significantly increase the stopping distance. I believe this is due to the extra weight on the back wheel which enables the captain to jam on the brakes very hard, without risk of catapulting over the front wheel. I'm not a physicist so perhaps this notion is completely mistaken, but I know that I can stop the bike (with a total weight of 400+), in a very short distance, even at high speed. I've done emergency braking in hazardous situations and I've always managed to avoid hitting the obstacle.

    Flex - Maybe it's the huge aluminum boom tube, but I can feel no flex at all when standing with power. (Or maybe I just can't tell.)

    And it's Fun, Fun, Fun (3x fun)

    The biggest problems (for me) . . .

    Shifting -- with all that cable (10 feet or more), it can be a bear to keep it in adjustment. Even after the cables have been stretched, I find that I need to fine tune the shifter almost every ride. Down shifting going up a hill, it makes a major difference for all three pedalers to ease up (otherwise, it often won't jump down into the smallest chainring - even with Dura Ace or Ultregra).

    Manoevering the bike when not riding -- usually it's ok, but it's very long and the center of effort (is that the physics term?) is easy to lose. If you let it start to tip over, it's very challenging to right the balance. I've never laid the bike down while riding (fingers crossed for future) but I've dropped the triplet many times trying to lean it against a fixed object. Oops.

    Neck tension -- when I first started riding the triplet, I tensed up a lot. After 20 miles or so, my shoulder and neck muscles were contracted (somewhat painful). It took many miles of riding before I learned to relax. It felt like I was driving a truck versus driving a car and no doubt I gripped the bars too firmly.

    Maybe there are other liabilities and differences from two-person tandem riding, but I can't remember any more.

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    Any thoughts on the speed difference between the 26" wheeled triplet compared to the 700 cc wheels triplet was some of the cause. I ask because I'm trying to decide between the 2 wheel sizes myself.

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fit4advent View Post
    Any thoughts on the speed difference between the 26" wheeled triplet compared to the 700 cc wheels triplet was some of the cause. I ask because I'm trying to decide between the 2 wheel sizes myself.
    I'm thinking it was the very meaty 1.6" all-purpose tires. The bike climbed very well, but just struggled to keep up even with tandems on the downhills where drag becomes a bigger factor. My suggestion was for our friends to pick up something like a Schwalbe Durano 26 x 1.1, which would easily be accommodated by their AeroHead rims and more than adequate for their typical team weights.

    That said, and as versatile as the 26" PeriScope is, we opted to go with a used 700c triplet this past week. It was sorely in need of a home and the temptation became just too strong to resist. As you can see, after a few short test rides with Debbie (1st photo is post ride), it's was stripped down to the bare frame and is headed to the painter. We hope to have it back before GTR, as we'll be doing the triplet thing with a different friend down in Dublin. If it doesn't get done in time, we'll most likely be riding the yellow Co-Motion triplet that we rode along side at the Alabama Tandem Weekend.

    ptandem_testride.jpg pframe_topaint.jpg

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    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    What is the paint job going to look like?

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    Very nice looking triplet! But hey, can we get a look at that MTB tandem hanging in the garage??? I an intreiged with the thought of bombing the local mountain fire roads on a tandem with suspension!

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    If you struggled on a triplet keeping up with two-person tandems downhill, then I would agree, it has to be the drag from the tires. On my triplet (running 28 x 700), I can't remember ever being passed by a regular tandem downhill.

    As for the on-going 26" vs 700c debate. I've read all the arguments on both sides and cannot figure out a legitimate reason why there would be a speed differential. As far as I can tell, all evidence either way is anecdotal (often justifed with some very persuasive scientific reasoning). I wish some company in the industry would do a true scientific study of wheels, tires, speed, braking, etc. Perhaps the tire manufacturers all have too much invested in the status quo.

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    What is the paint job going to look like?
    Black pearl fading to Black Cherry pearl about 2/3d's back.

    This is a notional; back end color is not quite right: a bit too violet and not subtle enough.
    paint.jpg

    Just dropped it off with Hill Clarke at AirGlow in Washington, GA who will be doing some test spray's to dial in the black cherry pearl; it will be very subtle. Lettering will be painted on by Hill; black cherry on black, so again... very subtle.

    Sadly, the original paint job was seriously lacking in far too many respects so this was an unplanned repaint. Leaving "as is" just wasn't an option for me or Debbie.

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdonterri View Post
    Very nice looking triplet! But hey, can we get a look at that MTB tandem hanging in the garage??? I an intreiged with the thought of bombing the local mountain fire roads on a tandem with suspension!
    It's a blast. Although, I'm a bit embarrassed to say that we haven't been doing much off-road riding during the past couple years. We hope to return to the dirt this year, if only to see if we still have the touch.



    You can click HERE to see a larger image of our Ventana El Conquistador de Montanas

    Again, we've had a lot of fun exploring the limits of adhesion, gravity and bone density.


  22. #22
    PMK
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    With you two getting a triple, there should be a few in your local area now?

    Have you got a planned third rider or is it just open to as the event and crazed soul come forward?

    PK
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  23. #23
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    It's a blast. Although, I'm a bit embarrassed to say that we haven't been doing much off-road riding during the past couple years. We hope to return to the dirt this year, if only to see if we still have the touch.



    You can click HERE to see a larger image of our Ventana El Conquistador de Montanas

    Again, we've had a lot of fun exploring the limits of adhesion, gravity and bone density.

    Last time I saw that bike it was clad with a fender. That was good event Alex did. We learned a lot, had a great time, and spent money upgrading our off-road fleet.

    I don't know how you feel about your Ventana, but ours has let us ride some crazy stuff, stupid fast.

    PK
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    And most important, someone special that enjoys them with me (except the KTM's)

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    With you two getting a triple, there should be a few in your local area now?

    Have you got a planned third rider or is it just open to as the event and crazed soul come forward?

    PK
    We have a disproportionate number of multi-seats in our posse; I think there are perhaps 6 triplets and now a quad that converts from a tandem-2-triple-2-quad:
    - A Green PeriScope Trident 26 (Mohs-LeBlanc)
    - A White/Silver/Gray Trident 26 (Wearing)
    - A Lifesavers Co-Motion Cromoly Triplet 700c (Strausky)
    - A SJS Trident from the UK (Wood-Good)
    - A Yellow Co-Motion Al Triplet (L.Davis)
    - A Blue Co-Motion Chromoly Convertible: Tandem-Triplet-Quad (Wood-Good/Christen)
    - A Black Precision AL Triplet (Team LGood)
    - A plum Co-Motion PeriScope Trident S&S Convertible: Tandem/Triplet (For Sale)

    As for the riders, we have a couple of friends who have lost their captains for various reasons, there are other times when a captain or stoker can't attend an event with their usual partner who still would like to join-in for a "tandem" ride without riding a single, and then there are our kids and grandkids. So, lots of opportunities. I will say that having three adults on a couple of triplets is a hoot! It's like a tandem outing on steroids in that two triplets riding side-by-side put 6 adults in close proximity analogous to a rolling cocktail party. It's the best!!!! I suspect a couple of quads would be 4x the fun!!!

    Just anxious to get our triplet frame back and built back-up for our GTR debut. Should be a great time!!! And, as far as future rally's go, the more the merrier. We'd readily give up riding our tandem if there's a single looking for a seat on our triple.

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    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    I don't know how you feel about your Ventana, but ours has let us ride some crazy stuff, stupid fast.
    Uh, yeah... Life-altering fast. As in, so friggin' fast over insane conditions (like boulder fields and ruts) where any kind of mechanical or mental mis-step would put you on a life-flight... if you were lucky. Really, it truly is crazy how fast you can go over "stuff" that you'd never attempt on a single.

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