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  1. #101
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    FWIW: in Europe the "Tandem 29" (the version with Acera bits) is priced at €2,199 including VAT. That would be something like €1.817 without VAT which roughly translates to $2,507. Just curious: what will be the asking price in the USA?
    Regards, Marten / www.tandemclub.nl
    '03 Santos Dual Travel | '13 MSC Zion Tandem

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clarabelle View Post
    +3

    Isn't it sad how we keep supporting businesses that ship jobs overseas. I've not regretted buying my American made Co-Motion tandem. My next bike will probably be by Bike Friday.
    I can imagine that people in the USA want/like/prefer USA-made products like the original Cannondale bikes. But if my information is correct, the demise of Cannondale has primarily been caused by the huge losses they incurred in trying to get into the motorcycling and other non-bicycle businesses. What I mean to say here is that without these (in retrospect) 'wrong' investments, Cannondale probably still would be - proudly! - American. All this would mean - again: if my information is correct - that a "good ol' American entrepreneur" has single-handedly killed his American company and thus this great brand. And I feel you can't blame others (in this case, Far Eastern parties) to have picked up such a valuable brand name after it got available.
    Regards, Marten / www.tandemclub.nl
    '03 Santos Dual Travel | '13 MSC Zion Tandem

  3. #103
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    I don't blame Cannondale but there is often confusion and some consumers are misled into thinking the brand is still American when it is not. That is my only problem with brands being purchased for name identification.

    You are right and I prefer an American made frame. The tandem frame market is dominated by American brands so it is easy to take advantage of that rather than buying a foreign frame with an American name.

  4. #104
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    I know people have complained about the frame not being made in the US and the price increase but, in 2014, is this bike really a bad value?

    BTW I do find the not "US made" complaint humorous given a majority of the parts on US "made" bikes are sourced from Asia.

  5. #105
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    I fail to see the humor. Just because many of the components on a "US Made" tandem are foreign is not an argument in favor of buying a 100 per cent foreign tandem. If consumers don't let manufacturers know what they want then it is guaranteed they will get what the manufacturers want. I personally am proud of my 2011 'Dale, made in the US--I would not buy the current version.

  6. #106
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nmike View Post
    I know people have complained about the frame not being made in the US and the price increase but, in 2014, is this bike really a bad value?

    BTW I do find the not "US made" complaint humorous given a majority of the parts on US "made" bikes are sourced from Asia.
    The non US component issue relates to ready made bikes that spec bulk purchased OEM priced components to keep the total bike price down. For anyone truly interested in made in a USA made tandem, there are non low wage country options available and those options are often the best available in their own right. Unlike a car one can buy a frame and build it up or have it built with components you choose. I have two tandems that ended up mostly made in the US not by design but rather as a result of picking the components I liked. Many on this list also specified individual components or replace many of the OEM components on their tandems.

    Some US examples include:

    Enve
    daVinci cranks
    Phil Wood
    Paul
    Chris King
    White Industries
    Selle Anatomica
    Velocity
    Polar

  7. #107
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    From what I can tell there aren't really any physical changes dimensionally on the frames. I was hoping for a longer stoker compartment since my wife and I are so like sized.

  8. #108
    Trail Blazing NoTrail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadne View Post
    From what I can tell there aren't really any physical changes dimensionally on the frames. I was hoping for a longer stoker compartment since my wife and I are so like sized.
    If you compare the geometry, there are definite changes to the frame.

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  9. #109
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    How can a Medium/Small frame have a front top tube of 57.1 when the previous had a 54.5 which for some companies is already on the long side for a Medium?

  10. #110
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    It appears that no "small" captains need apply. Shortest captain's top tube has gone up from 54.1 to 571+mm. In addition on the M/S bike the head tube angle is reduced to 71 degrees while they make no compensating adjustment to the fork rake (45mm) to even attempt to maintain handling similar to their larger models. As a result the M/S will handle very much differently than the larger sizes. Putting aside that I would not like that handling, an inflated fear of toe overlap seems to overridden the handling Cannondale's designers think is best best for the larger sizes.

    Both Comotion and Santana offer top tubes well under 570 and they live in the litigious US market. Comotion designed the Java a big tire 700C tandem and used a 70 degree head tube and choose a much more reasonable 55mm rake for that bike. Note that the longer rake gives both more toe clearance and compensates somewhat for the slack head tube angle in an attempt to design a bike that handles closer to the Comotion standard.

    I know of no other tandem brand that designs a bike with the extreme 69mm trail of the M/S Cannondale and suggest the new Cannondales are best suited to those teams with a (large, extra large and jumbo?) captain that likes at 58cm or longer top tube.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 10-30-13 at 11:21 AM.

  11. #111
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostic View Post
    How can a Medium/Small frame have a front top tube of 57.1 when the previous had a 54.5 which for some companies is already on the long side for a Medium?
    For comparison, this is the Geo on the Cannondale Synapse Hi-MOD endurance half-bike. The Medium appears to be 54.2 cm.


  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    It appears that no "small" captains need apply. Shortest captain's top tube has gone up from 54.1 to 571+mm. In addition on the M/S bike the head tube angle is reduced to 71 degrees while they make no compensating adjustment to the fork rake (45mm) to even attempt to maintain handling similar to their larger models. As a result the M/S will handle very much differently than the larger sizes. Putting aside that I would not like that handling, an inflated fear of toe overlap seems to overridden the handling Cannondale's designers think is best best for the larger sizes.
    Don't the little stars in the specs mean those specs remain unchanged (as you read left to right)? If so, the steering geometry is the same for all the sizes -- same head tube angle, same fork rake, same trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    I know of no other tandem brand that designs a bike with the extreme 69mm trail of the M/S Cannondale and suggest the new Cannondales are best suited to those teams with a (large, extra large and jumbo?) captain that likes at 58cm or longer top tube.
    Well it's 66 mm for the road tandems, 69 mm for the 29, but your point remains.

    Apparently what you need is a huge captain, or at least one with long arms and torso, and a stoker with pretty short legs, since the rear seat tube is so short.

  13. #113
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rahill View Post
    Don't the little stars in the specs mean those specs remain unchanged (as you read left to right)? If so, the steering geometry is the same for all the sizes -- same head tube angle, same fork rake, same trail.



    Well it's 66 mm for the road tandems, 69 mm for the 29, but your point remains.

    Apparently what you need is a huge captain, or at least one with long arms and torso, and a stoker with pretty short legs, since the rear seat tube is so short.
    Man I need to read these things more carefully. You are correct about the stars.

  14. #114
    Trail Blazing NoTrail's Avatar
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    I find it odd that they have increased the length of the top tube for the captain while decreasing the standover height. I guess they are designing it for people with shorter legs and longer arms ... or monkeys.

    I think they are still missing out on the Jumbo/Large size too (but that's nothing new).
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  15. #115
    Gear Combo Guru Chris_W's Avatar
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    One thing about the longer captain's top tube length is that it may well be designed with a zero setback/offset seatpost in mind. This would make the reach to the bars about 2cm shorter than on a comparable road bike, so more similar to one with a 55cm top tube. Zero setback posts are often used on the front of tandems to give more room for the stoker for the same length of rear top tube. The alternative would be to have a seatpost with a standard 20mm of offset, make the captain's top tube 20 mm shorter and the stoker's top tube 20mm longer, but that would make the stoker's compartment less laterally stiff, so what they've done may be considered by some people to be a good compromise.

    This would all be negated if the captain insisted on keeping his/her saddle setback measurement (i.e., the horizontal distance between the tip of the saddle and the crank axle) the same on the tandem as on a single road bike. However, that is not really necessary - I run a lot less setback on our tandem than on my other bikes and don't really notice the difference in that - as long as I keep the reach to the bars the same then I'm happy. However, other people believe in the "Knee Over Pedal Spindle" myth and so care about maintaining setback measurements, but Keith Bontrager's article on this should be required reading before discussing that heated topic any further.

  16. #116
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    I don't necessarily believe in the knee over pedal spindle "myth" but I do believe that your rear will find it's happy space fore/aft. That may end up with your knee forward of the pedal spindle or well aft of it, but forcing it forward with a zero setback post seems like an odd choice. Having just gone through this, I found that getting setback on the tandem at least close to the single bike setup was important. You might be able to relearn your position, but going back and forth between the two, changes are very noticeable. The only compromise that has on the stoker compartment is that the stoker's hands end up ~2cm further under my saddle, but unless you have a really short captain and a really tall stoker, that doesn't seem to be an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_W View Post
    One thing about the longer captain's top tube length is that it may well be designed with a zero setback/offset seatpost in mind. This would make the reach to the bars about 2cm shorter than on a comparable road bike, so more similar to one with a 55cm top tube. Zero setback posts are often used on the front of tandems to give more room for the stoker for the same length of rear top tube. The alternative would be to have a seatpost with a standard 20mm of offset, make the captain's top tube 20 mm shorter and the stoker's top tube 20mm longer, but that would make the stoker's compartment less laterally stiff, so what they've done may be considered by some people to be a good compromise.

    This would all be negated if the captain insisted on keeping his/her saddle setback measurement (i.e., the horizontal distance between the tip of the saddle and the crank axle) the same on the tandem as on a single road bike. However, that is not really necessary - I run a lot less setback on our tandem than on my other bikes and don't really notice the difference in that - as long as I keep the reach to the bars the same then I'm happy. However, other people believe in the "Knee Over Pedal Spindle" myth and so care about maintaining setback measurements, but Keith Bontrager's article on this should be required reading before discussing that heated topic any further.

  17. #117
    Trail Blazing NoTrail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_W View Post
    One thing about the longer captain's top tube length is that it may well be designed with a zero setback/offset seatpost in mind.
    Interesting point. I hadn't thought of that.
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  18. #118
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    Sorry to burst that bubble, but both the old and new geometry have 73.0 degree seat tubes front and rear.

  19. #119
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_W View Post
    One thing about the longer captain's top tube length is that it may well be designed with a zero setback/offset seatpost in mind. This would make the reach to the bars about 2cm shorter than on a comparable road bike, so more similar to one with a 55cm top tube. Zero setback posts are often used on the front of tandems to give more room for the stoker for the same length of rear top tube. The alternative would be to have a seatpost with a standard 20mm of offset, make the captain's top tube 20 mm shorter and the stoker's top tube 20mm longer, but that would make the stoker's compartment less laterally stiff, so what they've done may be considered by some people to be a good compromise.

    This would all be negated if the captain insisted on keeping his/her saddle setback measurement (i.e., the horizontal distance between the tip of the saddle and the crank axle) the same on the tandem as on a single road bike. However, that is not really necessary - I run a lot less setback on our tandem than on my other bikes and don't really notice the difference in that - as long as I keep the reach to the bars the same then I'm happy. However, other people believe in the "Knee Over Pedal Spindle" myth and so care about maintaining setback measurements, but Keith Bontrager's article on this should be required reading before discussing that heated topic any further.
    I do not believe setback should be set using KOPS because it is a myth. I do however believe in setback being important for most people in that it adjusts how much weight is places on the hands vs. the seat. All setup is individual however so it does not surprise me that you find it easy to adapt to different setbacks. Many are not so adaptable. That is a long way to say that a longer top tube does matter to many people.

  20. #120
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    Not saying this is correct or incorrect, but it is known that Cannondale over the years have had inaccurate specs posted in catalogs.

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  21. #121
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    I still haven't procured the older Cannondale and have been taking a look at these new models. Of course the two local dealers have no interest in carrying any of these but will order if desired. I'm really concerned with the geometry as the top tubes seem stupid long for the captain, as previously mentioned. I rode a friend's L/S 2011 Cannondale last year. It was short for me and my wife (6'2" and 5'7"), but a long stem made it doable. My road bike, for comparison, has a 58.6 mm top tube and I use a 110mm stem for proper fit.

    Another issue is, I can't find any weights listed for the RT1. I would assume they would want it competitive with something like a Co-Motion Robusta. If the weight was comparable you'd think they would be boasting. Anyone actually throw one of these new models on a scale at your LBS? Who knows, there might be just a few dealers around the US that even have any in stock.

  22. #122
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    FWIW: it seems that the production of (in any case) the new 29er tandem is delayed. I asked Cannondale Europe to get one for testing purposes on a bike show that runs 1st/2nd March 2014. The marketing manager had to inform me that they 'ran into some production problems' and delivery of the first tandems - at least over here in Europe - had been delayed until mid April 2014.
    Regards, Marten / www.tandemclub.nl
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  23. #123
    Junior Member swiss_toni's Avatar
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    RT1 tandem weight

    Quote Originally Posted by TCW2 View Post
    Another issue is, I can't find any weights listed for the RT1. I would assume they would want it competitive with something like a Co-Motion Robusta. If the weight was comparable you'd think they would be boasting. Anyone actually throw one of these new models on a scale at your LBS? Who knows, there might be just a few dealers around the US that even have any in stock.
    I have asked the dealer where we are going to get our RT2 from and he has said it weights 18Kg (40lbs) which is fairly hefty.
    Last edited by swiss_toni; 02-09-14 at 11:05 AM. Reason: correcting RT1 to RT2

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    If it really is 40lbs. then the frame must have some custom lead inserts. Based upon the build spec it would make more sense if it was no more than 35lbs. 40lbs., wtf?

  25. #125
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiss_toni View Post
    I have asked the dealer where we are going to get our RT1 from and he has said it weights 18Kg (40lbs) which is fairly hefty.
    But I thought only the RT2 was available for dealers in Europe. That's all that's available on the Cannondale web pages for European countries.

    I don't think any weights can be trusted without a photo hanging from the scale. For all we know thats the shipping weight of the package including box.

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