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  1. #1
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    Will Spinergy accept Arai drum brake?

    Can a Spinergy wheel owner chime in on whether a rear Spinergy will accept an Arai drum brake? In particular, I'm interested in the Spinergy wheelsets that Santana puts on their new bikes.
    Thx

  2. #2
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrl@pobox.com View Post
    Can a Spinergy wheel owner chime in on whether a rear Spinergy will accept an Arai drum brake? In particular, I'm interested in the Spinergy wheelsets that Santana puts on their new bikes.
    Thx
    I suggest calling Santana. They answer the phone and are helpful.

    Wayne

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrl@pobox.com View Post
    Can a Spinergy wheel owner chime in on whether a rear Spinergy will accept an Arai drum brake? In particular, I'm interested in the Spinergy wheelsets that Santana puts on their new bikes.
    Thx
    A +3 dittos on Wayne's response; Get the advice direct from the horse's mouth. My gut feel is that all the newer S-Tandems are fitted with disk brakes and 16 spoke wheels and thus the answer would be no, nadda, no way, no chance.

    It might be good to ask if they have any new or used wheels available that are compatable with the Arai drum... I would bet they have some lying around from trade-ins or upgrades or production overruns from years past. Might want to first nail down where you are going to be sourcing the drum brake itself from before buying the wheels to fit it... Arai's are getting very hard to find and not at all cheap if/when found.

    When you have sorted out the cats and dogs on this... if you can't find what you need, it might be good to post the specifics (such as your required OLN, spoke count, wheel size, etc., as a WTB post. Many of us have several bikes and/or several tandems with Arai's installed, usually on traditional stout 40 or 48 spoke wheels. Again not cheap, but it could work for you. Personally I haven't actually touched a Spinergy wheel firsthand, although I have crossed paths with a good number of the newer S_Tandems in 2011 and 2012. If I see one this spring I will make it a point to touch one the wheels to see if it makes my finger buzz happily or perhaps just out of morbid curiosity. [;**

  4. #4
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksisler View Post
    A +3 dittos on Wayne's response; Get the advice direct from the horse's mouth. My gut feel is that all the newer S-Tandems are fitted with disk brakes and 16 spoke wheels and thus the answer would be no, nadda, no way, no chance.

    It might be good to ask if they have any new or used wheels available that are compatable with the Arai drum... I would bet they have some lying around from trade-ins or upgrades or production overruns from years past. Might want to first nail down where you are going to be sourcing the drum brake itself from before buying the wheels to fit it... Arai's are getting very hard to find and not at all cheap if/when found.

    When you have sorted out the cats and dogs on this... if you can't find what you need, it might be good to post the specifics (such as your required OLN, spoke count, wheel size, etc., as a WTB post. Many of us have several bikes and/or several tandems with Arai's installed, usually on traditional stout 40 or 48 spoke wheels. Again not cheap, but it could work for you. Personally I haven't actually touched a Spinergy wheel firsthand, although I have crossed paths with a good number of the newer S_Tandems in 2011 and 2012. If I see one this spring I will make it a point to touch one the wheels to see if it makes my finger buzz happily or perhaps just out of morbid curiosity. [;**
    Based on user experience, you will not get a buzz out of the Spinergy... and that is a good thing

  5. #5
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    The Spinergy rear wheel that we bought for our Calfee (145 mm spacing) is set up to receive a disc brake and is not threaded for a drum. I would guess that Santana uses a similar hub for their 160 spacing. However a call to Santana would resolve the issue.

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    Confirmed. I spoke with at length with Tim at Santana yesterday, he confirmed no drum possible on Spinergy. I expressed my dismay at reverting to only 2 brakes. Seems to me three has to be better than two. He said the answer is to keep three - have a disc plus two V-brakes on a splitter. Sounds like substantial braking power to me, although you still lose the ability to set a drag and forget it.

    Does anyone have 2 V-brakes on a splitter, plus a rear disc? Thoughts?

    The lengthy conversation was mostly about buying a whole new bike, Tim was very helpful. Much of it was about the merits of the Spinergy in the first place. He left me with the impression that Santana is leaning away from the Sweet-16 wheels, and favoring Spinergy and Rolf. The sixteens requires too much maintenance for the average rider. He also says they have had the lowest time-normalized failure rate with the Spinergy's as compared to the others, and they are very confident in them. By the end of the conversation, I am now considering going with the Spinergy's despite taking no drum (BTW, I already have an old Arai drum, no problem obtaining one).

    Disclaimer - I have had Spinergys before on my Cervelo single, and loved them. Never a problem. Would still have the set had I not left the front wheel leaning against my car at the foot of Mt Lemmon (Tucson) and driven back to San Diego! I was too cheap to spring for another set. Replacement DT wheels (used on craigslist) are nice, but don't have that smooth ride.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrl@pobox.com View Post
    Confirmed. I spoke with at length with Tim at Santana yesterday, he confirmed no drum possible on Spinergy. I expressed my dismay at reverting to only 2 brakes. Seems to me three has to be better than two. He said the answer is to keep three - have a disc plus two V-brakes on a splitter. Sounds like substantial braking power to me, although you still lose the ability to set a drag and forget it.

    Does anyone have 2 V-brakes on a splitter, plus a rear disc? Thoughts?
    Disks are not good as drag brakes, not enough thermal mass and tends to warp when it gets hot. I would use a conventional wheel with drum brake + 2 rim brake for loaded touring in hilly terrain.

  8. #8
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Ric at House of Tandems is the NA distributor for Spinergy wheels. He was also the driving force to get the tandem versions of the Spinergy wheels made.

    I have it directly from Ric that he has a drum compatible version in development for months already. Demand for a drum version is going to be very small, so it is not surprising a limited run of them are coming out later than the originals.

    BTW, he also has a new source for drum style drag brake.

    Give Ric a call to learn more.
    Last edited by twocicle; 11-21-12 at 08:59 AM.

  9. #9
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    BTW, he also has a new source for drum style drag brake.
    ....about time.

    Co-Motion / Tandems East have had a job shopper in Eugene, OR, working on and testing since 2010.

    I kept hoping to see a prototype that combined a drum brake core with a disc brake rotor for the ultimate solution in tandem brake technology but I don't think it went there.

    When I was last sent a photo of the prototype installed on test fixture (the back-end of a hacked-up Co-Motion tandem), it was essentially an Arai-based design that substituted low-profile raised ridges as a heat sink vs. the massive fins on the Arai. So, not quite shaved, but definitely a better-looking package vs. the Arai. The question was, did it retain the heat capacity with the fins removed, and the process of torture testing had just begun back in May of 2011.

    (Note, you can enlarge the following photo by opening in a new window and removing the "?w=500")



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by scycheng View Post
    Disks are not good as drag brakes, not enough thermal mass and tends to warp when it gets hot. I would use a conventional wheel with drum brake + 2 rim brake for loaded touring in hilly terrain.
    Appreciate the feedback, it confirms what my gut says. We are in a pretty hilly area and use the drum at least a couple of times each ride. So easy to set and forget. Hate to lose that peace of mind - got some valuable cargo on the stoker's throne

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    I have it directly from Ric that he has a drum compatible version in development for months already. Demand for a drum version is going to be very small, so it is not surprising a limited run of them are coming out later than the originals.

    BTW, he also has a new source for drum style drag brake.

    Give Ric a call to learn more.
    I just got off the phone with Ric, informative chat, great guy. Indeed they are developing a drum-compatible Spinergy hub. It is still in the works, no final prototype yet, they are working out the kinks in the modified spacing caused by the hub shell modification to include drum threads. He cautions the timeframe is questionable, but seems confident that Feb or early spring are probably realistic for first units.

    Ric and team are creating the design, which is a simple modification to the standard Spinergy TX2 hub, and Spinergy will manufacture them once the design is finalized. It really only modifies the shell to have threads, and some minor spacing changes internally to accommodate the change. The internal axle design, hollow aluminum 15mm, is unchanged. The hub will not accept both drum and disc at the same time, but can always be modified to use a disc instead of a drum with a spin-on adapter.

    He mentioned the hubs will probably be available separately for those who want to rebuild existing Spinergy TX2 wheels. He expects the spoke lengths, etc. will remain the same, but I image this may still be subject to change. They are being careful to get the design just right. I am an engineering manager, so he and I can relate to the intricacies of delivering a well engineered product on time - he sounds like he knows what he is doing!

    Bottom line - now I am more confused than ever about what to do with my new bike purchase! Sure would like a set of these new wheels, but can I wait that long? Oh, the pain and suffering of discretionary income...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrl@pobox.com View Post
    Bottom line - now I am more confused than ever about what to do with my new bike purchase! Sure would like a set of these new wheels, but can I wait that long? Oh, the pain and suffering of discretionary income...

    House of Tandems--- stopped there once and it was a back yard shop behind a house. Take it for what it's worth. Prove me wrong if you wish.

    You want peace of mind? Put two brakes on the rim and a disc on the axle. If the disk gets warped get another. Quit worrying. Don't worry about what other think.

  13. #13
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monoborracho View Post
    House of Tandems--- stopped there once and it was a back yard shop behind a house. Take it for what it's worth. Prove me wrong if you wish.

    You want peace of mind? Put two brakes on the rim and a disc on the axle. If the disk gets warped get another. Quit worrying. Don't worry about what other think.
    Have had great service from Ric @ HoT, and so have plenty of others here. He has worked hard to further the availability of quality tandeming which we are enjoying the benefits of. That is worth a lot.
    Last edited by twocicle; 11-24-12 at 10:59 AM.

  14. #14
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monoborracho View Post
    House of Tandems--- stopped there once and it was a back yard shop behind a house. Take it for what it's worth. Prove me wrong if you wish.
    Yes, House of Tandems is a home-based business....

    So are Tandems Limited (AL), Tandems East (NJ), Precision Tandems (KS), MTB Tandems (GA), and Gear-to-Go (NY).

    What's your point? Or do you simply believe a brick & mortar "store front" will somehow yield a better buying experience and have owners who know more about the products they are selling?

    If it makes you feel any better, Ric & Marcia previously owned a brick & mortar bicycle shop where they sold a full line of bicycles but were also sought-out for their tandem expertise. Several years back they decided to sell that business and run a home-based tandem speciality dealership -- again, not a unique concept given that some of the best tandem dealers in the country operate from home-based shops -- so they could focus exclusively on tandems.

    There are about three brick & mortar tandem speciality dealers in the US, well... perhaps two because one of them had to expand their product line to recumbents and single bikes to make the business viable. The other two are Crank2 near San Francisco, CA, and Tandem Works of Colorado in Denver.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monoborracho View Post
    You want peace of mind? Put two brakes on the rim and a disc on the axle. If the disk gets warped get another. Quit worrying. Don't worry about what other think.
    Good advice, two rims + disc = probably the most braking power. I'm am also interested in the convenience of setting a drag brake and forgetting which, I am told, would overheat a disc.

    FWIW, thanks to the sincere advice gleaned from the kind folks on this forum, several dealers, and Santana themselves, I just put a deposit down on a new niobium "Spirit", their new upgraded Arriva niobium. I simply ordered it with the Hadley wheels and can defer the Spinergy decision till later. Santana wants approx $700 extra to upgrade the Hadley's to Spinergy. I figure for only $200 extra I can wait till (if) Ric has his new hubs this spring, and buy his Spinergy set for $899. I get a spare set of wheels in the process.

    Oh - the fact that he is a home based business doesn't faze me much, the wheels are manufactured by Spinergy and come with their warrantee. I prefer to support the small guys when they're doing good work, which it sounds like Ric is doing.

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