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  1. #1
    Senior Member colotandem's Avatar
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    2013 NAHBS tandems

    I went to the North American Handmade Bicycle Show today, I regret to say that I neglected to bring my camera. There were tandems of all sorts of materials: Steel, Magnesium, Titanium, Here's a couple of photos from the FB pages. If anyone else went to the show, please share any photos.

    Travel tandem less than 23 lbs!!!
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    This bike is freakin cool!!! James at Black Sheep is a titanium artist!
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    Another really cool MTB with big fat tires!!! The more I see the Rolof hub, the more I start to believe that this could make for a great set up for the MTB tandem.
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

  2. #2
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    I've scoured through Flickr and Instagram to find tandem pics at NAHBS. I've saved them in two Galleries.


    NAHBS Tandems 2013 Part 1


    NAHBS Tandems 2013 Part 2.

    NAHBS Tandems 2013 Part 3.

    There are also tandem pics in this set:

    NAHBS

    This track tandem got lots of pics:

    Last edited by Ritterview; 03-16-13 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Added Gallery Part 3

  3. #3
    Gear Combo Guru Chris_W's Avatar
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    More details on the Ampierce 29er MTB tandem on a Bikerumor article here.

    We tried a Rohloff on our touring tandem, and quickly gave up on it and reverted to derailleur gearing. The Rohloff doesn't shift well under power, you really have to ease off to shift smoothly. We pedal 90 degrees out of phase, so there is never a dead spot to make the shift in, and co-ordinating the easing off of the power to shift was not easy, especially when climbing. I've since put the hub on my single 29er MTB, where it works a lot better, though I still have to ease off significantly to make most shifts. I would say don't even try a Rohloff if you like pedaling out of phase, and even if pedaling in phase, I don't think the Rohloff is ideal for tandems. I've heard that Shimano's Alfine (8- and 11-speed models) shift significantly better than Rohloffs under power, although they have reduced range so you may still need to pair one with a double crankset and front derailleur.

  4. #4
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_W View Post
    I've heard that Shimano's Alfine (8- and 11-speed models) shift significantly better than Rohloffs under power, although they have reduced range so you may still need to pair one with a double crankset and front derailleur.
    I have a Aline 8 speed on a Specialized Globe half-bike, that I tried using for commuting. But in comparison to my BMC commuter bike, it was soooo slow, at least 2 mph slower for equal effort. Maybe it was the tires, or the position, but I think it is friction loss in the Alfine hub as well. Having a watt-robbing transmission I found very demoralizing, and I would never want to have such on the tandem.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colotandem View Post
    I went to the North American Handmade Bicycle Show today, I regret to say that I neglected to bring my camera. There were tandems of all sorts of materials: Steel, Magnesium, Titanium, Here's a couple of photos from the FB pages. If anyone else went to the show, please share any photos.
    Colotandem, Can you shed any light on the Erickson Ti tandem particularly the lever at the end of the stokers bar left side and how the hydraulic stoker operated rear disc was carried out on the right side?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/rumbles...7632837308449/
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/rumbles...7632837308449/

  6. #6
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    Colotandem,

    I think I figured out what's going on on the Erickson Ti Tandem. I was able to enlarge the photos that Ritterview linked to and you can follow the cable from the left side of the stoker's bar down to a pulley on the back of the stoker's seat tube. Looks like the stoker operates the front derailleur changing chain rings when called for, even though the placard on the captains stem says the bike is DI2 equipped. The enlarged version of the photo also reveals that the hydraulic system operated by the stoker is a mtb. reservior and lever attached to the stokers bar

    The captain's seat post and stoker's stem are nicely integrated. It looks like the stoker's bars may also be integrated with the stem but I can't tell from the photos.

  7. #7
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    That looks to be Kent & Katie Eriksen's personal tandem. It was last year's NAHBS "Best Tandem". The shifting arrangement is very unique in that Katie has control over the shifting which can be configured with either a Di2 shifted front double or a mechanical front triple for touring in steep terrain. So, the thumb shifter does control the front derailleur, but there's also a Di2 remote shifter on the stoker's bars that can be used to control both the front & rear Di2 derailleurs. Katie also has control over the rear hydraulic disc drag brake.

  8. #8
    Senior Member colotandem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenovian View Post
    Colotandem,

    I think I figured out what's going on on the Erickson Ti Tandem. I was able to enlarge the photos that Ritterview linked to and you can follow the cable from the left side of the stoker's bar down to a pulley on the back of the stoker's seat tube. Looks like the stoker operates the front derailleur changing chain rings when called for, even though the placard on the captains stem says the bike is DI2 equipped. The enlarged version of the photo also reveals that the hydraulic system operated by the stoker is a mtb. reservior and lever attached to the stokers bar

    The captain's seat post and stoker's stem are nicely integrated. It looks like the stoker's bars may also be integrated with the stem but I can't tell from the photos.
    Yes. I think it is Di2 but only for the rear deraileur. The front is operated by the stoker. Also, that integrated seatpost/stokerstem/stoker handlebar is cool and all, but not practical for travel. I actually had a conversation with Kent about their bike last fall and sort of came to the conclusion that it works for their purposes, but they'd need to do something else for travel (too many angles to fit into a bike case). It's a pretty cool set up. That bike and one of the Paketas are both built with just two couplers and fit into a a standard size bike case (as opposed to the S&S cases).

  9. #9
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    That looks to be Kent & Katie Eriksen's personal tandem. It was last year's NAHBS "Best Tandem". The shifting arrangement is very unique in that Katie has control over the shifting which can be configured with either a Di2 shifted front double or a mechanical front triple for touring in steep terrain. So, the thumb shifter does control the front derailleur, but there's also a Di2 remote shifter on the stoker's bars that can be used to control both the front & rear Di2 derailleurs. Katie also has control over the rear hydraulic disc drag brake.
    TG,
    Is the Di2 remote shifter that little protrusion just to the right of center on the stoker's bars?

  10. #10
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colotandem View Post
    Yes. I think it is Di2 but only for the rear deraileur. The front is operated by the stoker. Also, that integrated seatpost/stokerstem/stoker handlebar is cool and all, but not practical for travel. I actually had a conversation with Kent about their bike last fall and sort of came to the conclusion that it works for their purposes, but they'd need to do something else for travel (too many angles to fit into a bike case). It's a pretty cool set up. That bike and one of the Paketas are both built with just two couplers and fit into a a standard size bike case (as opposed to the S&S cases).
    I came to a similar conclusion thinking that the stoker bars were integrated with the stem and seat post. It would be hard to get them packed into a case with the back half of the frame and have the cabling and hydraulic line still attached. A very cool setup though if you weren't planning on packing the bike up. Did Kent give you any idea as to what the integrated post, stem and stoker bars weighed?
    Last edited by Krenovian; 02-25-13 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Grammar

  11. #11
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenovian View Post
    TG,
    Is the Di2 remote shifter that little protrusion just to the right of center on the stoker's bars?
    Yes... it is. A photo from 2012.

    eriksen_tandem_stoker_bar_600.jpg

  12. #12
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
    Yes... it is. A photo from 2012.

    eriksen_tandem_stoker_bar_600.jpg
    Thanks for posting the photo! It shows things I couldn't see in the other photos

  13. #13
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    I took a bunch of photographs of the Eriksen at NAHBS 2012, and I've uploaded them here.


  14. #14
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link to the photos Ritterview. I appreciate it!

  15. #15
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenovian View Post
    Thanks for posting the photo! It shows things I couldn't see in the other photos
    It also didn't show how the dual derailleur concept was technically awkward.

    As best as I can recall, when they first set the bike up for the show it had the Di2 front & rear derailleurs on the tandem with the front triple. Shimano's rep noticed and suggested that wasn't cricket since the Di2 front derailleur was not capable of shifting a triple, as could have been inferred / assumed from the show bike set-up. So, the Di2 front derailleur came off and the mechanical triplet FD went on.

    But, here's the little problem with that configuration: the "brains" (microprocessor & transmitter/receiver) of the Di2 are housed in the Di2 front derailleur and the Di2 rear derailleur is simply a slave that runs via a wired connection to the Di2 front derailleur. So, for the rear derailleur to work with the tandem in "triple mode" the bike would have to have both the mechanical triple FD and the Di2 derailleur installed somewhere around the rear crank, unless the rear derailleur's signal wire was lengthened to reach a more discrete location for the Di2's front derailleur, perhas in a seat pack on the stoker's saddle.

    Again, that's my recollection of how it played out in 2012 and how the system works. After all, there were lots of folks drooling all over the Specialized "concept" tandem a couple years back, a bike that was more bondo & balsa wood than it was a road ready time trial machine once subjected to a critical eye. Just something to keep in mind when looking at "show bikes" and concepts.

  16. #16
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    I saw that Shimano is offering (or will be soon) an Alfine internal geared hub (IGH) coupled with Di2, in 8 and 11 speed hubs. Not sure if that hub is tandem rated - I doubt it - but that could be a nice setup for a tandem if so. Alfine is targeted for trekking, city and touring bikes.

    For NAHBS, Co-Motion built up a city bike with the Alfine IGH, Di2, and a Gates drive belt. Sweet. http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/02/25/...on-belt-drive/

    EDITED to add: I asked Co-Motion about the Afline on a tandem, and they confirmed that it is not tandem rated. Bummer.
    Last edited by briwasson; 02-26-13 at 07:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Gear Combo Guru Chris_W's Avatar
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    TG - I had thought the same as you about the Di2 FD being necessary for the system to work. But I recently discovered that this is not at all true, the derailleurs work totally independently; you can run the system without the FD without any problems.

    There was a cyclocross bike setup with only one chainring and a Di2 rear derailleur that was profiled on one of the bike news websites a couple of months ago. I wrote in the comments about wondering how they had got it to work without the FD, and the team mechanic responded that it was absolutely no problem and Shimano have no issue with this setup. You learn something new every day!

  18. #18
    hors category TandemGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_W View Post
    TG - I had thought the same as you about the Di2 FD being necessary for the system to work. But I recently discovered that this is not at all true, the derailleurs work totally independently; you can run the system without the FD without any problems.
    They were using the Ultegra-level Ui2 system, which solved this "little" issue with the original Di2 system. On Ui2, the rear derailleur is no longer slaved off a single set of electronics in the front derailleur; both front & rear have their own processors which makes Ui2 perfect for Cross bikes running 1x10 as you observed.

    On the original Di2 systems that are out there all of the "brains" are housed in the Front Derailleur so anyone looking to ditch the front derailleur on their Di2 bike and use a mechanical FD on a tandem would have to "downgrade" to upgrade to the Ui2 system. You may recall that I learned about this Di2 derailleur interdependency when we demo'd a tandem with Di2 and the rear derailleur's signal wire came loose several times over a 4-day weekend.

  19. #19
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    While Shimano's electronic shifting is a great idea, it seems enough folks (including us) had some issues and either went back to mechanical or tried to circumvent/improve the system.
    Simplicity/reliability trumps innovation/complexity for us.
    Pedal on!
    Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

  20. #20
    Senior Member Turbotandem's Avatar
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    I attended NAHBS as well and took some pictures. Here's of the Paketa tandem no. 1. 22.4# two coupling version that fits in a single bike Biknd case. Also engineered new SS couplers with flush finish, revised ti internal SS parts to reduce stress risers of connection. Also engineered a way to mate the 130bcd gates sproket to a compact crank for the right side drive giving wider geraing options. With the right side belt note that the chain can not fall off the inside of the inner chain ring. Sixteycycles posted this bike and better pics on the weight string. Also worked thru the application of ceramikoat nano finish, mohrs hardness 9, which does come in colors but here in a low bling blue-grey. Are the red EE brakes a special run? First sighting of the AC Argent wheels. Here with tubes in the tires for weight-in. I think I like the wide section rims for a lower tire profile.
    Paketa no 1 detail gates 130bcd mated to comapct 110.jpgpaketa no 1 in 2 coupling version with engineered SS coupling.jpgpaketa no 1 tight right side belt.jpgpaketa no 1.jpg

  21. #21
    Senior Member Turbotandem's Avatar
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    Paketa no 2 at NAHBS. An all belt single speed. Paketa also does an all belt touring tandem on a roloff hub. This is the around town cruiser. 24# using standard bars and brakes and wheels. Given a higher end compeonent selection this cold be under 20#. As is it's just for fun. Day one this was at the paketa booth. By satruday it had moved to the gates booth as shot here to mark their slogan, "no chains".
    Note an intersting detail: Paketa always uses bolt on steel drop outs including a derailure hanger. Here the right drop out is tapped with 4 bolts and serves as the connection between the gracefully split stays to allow the installation and/or chaning of the rear belt.
    paketa no 2 all belt detail.jpgpaketa no 2 all belt single speed cruiser.jpgpaketa no 2 note the split coupling in to bolt on drop out.jpg

  22. #22
    Senior Member Turbotandem's Avatar
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    Pictures of the tandem submission line up. The entries were notably "low bling". Especially when compared to the bulk of material at NAHBS which can be a blur of bright paint and chrome. The judging criteria is not stated for the competition. Not innovation, year-over-year engineering achievements, funtion, maybe "eye candy" or artistry? Given the win was not even singular but split between Calfee's faux lugged carbon, stretch TT, discussed elseware on this forum; and the wonderful Black Sheep that clearly involved an enourmous amount of labor to construct with great visual appeal; the award for best tandem included a large component of novelty factor in the judging. I wonder how many of the judges were tandem riders, and appreciated what they were looking at between the fun ideas co-motion put forward or the innovation from Paketa. Was it even a close call, or a simple choice of the most visual appeal?

    tandem submission line up 1.jpgtandem submission line up 2.jpgtandem submission line up 3.jpgtandem submission line up 4.jpg

  23. #23
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Cycling News posted new pics today.



    Paketa claims this two-coupler tandem weighs just 10kg (22lb) and fits into two standard bike cases.
    Photo: James Huang/Future Publishing


    Paketa says this four-coupler magnesium tandem weighs just 10.9kg (24lb).
    Photo: James Huang/Future Publishing


    Lightning cranks are rarely seen but the design is licensed to Specialized for its FACT carbon cranks.


    The massive boom tube on Paketa's four-coupler magnesium tandem.



    Paketa has cleverly integrated a rear disc mount into its existing replaceable dropout system but we're not sure about how it's cantilevered over the seat stay.

  24. #24
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    A couple brief notes on the nice photos James Huang took of our bikes:

    --The matte grey Ceramikoat-finished tandem ended up at 22.4 lbs. as shown with the compact crank adapter; 22.2 lbs. with a standard crank and 38/53 rings (the production version of the compact crank adapter will be CNC'ed and, thus, lighter as well as a bit more aesthetic). The whole bike fits into one (not two as the caption states) standard single-bike case--you can see the Biknd case, for which it's designed, in the upper-right background of the top photo). The bike in the case is 44 lbs. total weight.

    --The replaceable dropouts, as shown in the last photo of the disc-brake-equipped Campy EPS road bike, are aluminum, and come in non-disc, disc, and track/single-speed (horizontal dropout) versions for the left side, as well as with or without a derailleur hanger, or horizontal for single-speed or track use. We've used this replaceable dropout system since the first frames were made in Colorado in 2004 with great success. It's nice to be able to replace a bent dropout, if needed, or swap out a non-disc dropout for a disc brake-compatible version, for example. To answer the question above, yes, it's cantilevered over the seat stay: the attachment points are to the dropout only. It's a solid, secure design; used successfully on tandems with up to 203 mm rotors.

  25. #25
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixtiescycles View Post

    --The matte grey Ceramikoat-finished tandem...
    That Ceramikoat is interesting, as it weighs 1/3 of paint/clear coat alternatives.

    It appears to be the proprietary coating of one shop, but surely the coating material is manufactured by a company (eg DuPont), and sold more widely. How did you come across this, and did your frames need go to Norris City, IL for this treatment?

    I've emailed RD at Ceramikoat, to ask whether carbon frames can be treated (he has no examples). He says yes, but that all his examples are metal doesn't make a convincing case.

    On a tandem, with the large tubes, the weight of paint becomes of some significance. Your discovery of Ceramikoat is another of a growing list of real innovations.

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