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Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

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Old 03-15-13, 01:27 PM   #1
cornucopia72
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Santana conversion 9sp to 10 sp

Hi,

The shifters and cassette need to be replaced on my 2005 Santana Soverign

We want to go ahead and upgrade to a 10 sp setup
At the same time, we want to be able to climb steep >15% grades without hurting too much. Our lowest gear ratio is 0.88 if could get it down to 0.8 that would be great.
Currently we have Ultegra and XTR RD. the cassette us 11-34 and the chain rings 30/42/52
Besides the cassette, chainrings, FDR and shifters what else we should replace.

We welcome any comments or suggestions.

Can someone help us with especific brands and model numbers/sizes to best achieve our objectives?

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by cornucopia72; 03-15-13 at 08:17 PM. Reason: it was incomplete
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Old 03-15-13, 09:09 PM   #2
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You can certainly go with an 11-36 cassette. Depending on your crankset you might be able to go lower than the 30t small chain ring; someone will chime in.
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Old 03-16-13, 08:58 AM   #3
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We have used 10 speed 26-39-53 front rings with Ultegra 10 speed front derailleur. Worked just as well as the 30 tooth granny except there was of course a bigger change in cadence when we dropped into it. We did use a chain catcher which I recommend regardless of granny used. 26/34=.7647 and 26/32=.8125 so you might be able to go with a 32 big cog if that works better for you.

If it were me I would only change shifters and cassette and see how it shifts before changing more. I do my own work so labor is free.
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Old 03-16-13, 10:51 PM   #4
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If we went with a 28 granny and left the cassette 11-34 we would be very close to 0.8. What brand/model chainrings would be compatible with our Ultegra cranks?
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Old 03-16-13, 11:53 PM   #5
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We have the same rings as Wayne in 9 speed. Could also go 26-36-50, though the Ultegra 39 is a good ring. We also have a chain catcher. We have 12-34 in back. Having too low a gear is not usually a problem. We used a Salsa 26T ring but it burred pretty easily so we went to a SS 26T, an SR Ninja. I can't point you to a source for these now. Stronglight steel rings are another option. You need 74 BCD. The inner ring is nothing fancy, just a flat piece of metal, no ramps, pins, etc., so brand really doesn't matter.
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Old 03-17-13, 01:58 PM   #6
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Could also go 26-36-50, though the Ultegra 39 is a good ring.
38 is the smallest you can go on a standard 130BCD. So you may as well get a matched Shimano or FSA 39-50 or 39-52 for a triple. I found the 26 to 39 to be a huge jump and the 28 works smoother.

I've tried a generic granny from Tandems East and TA rings from Harris Cyclery. They all needed to be spaced out differently than Shimano or FSA so be prepared to experiment with chainring spacers.

Warning-the new Flight Deck is expensive. The OP didn't specify if he wants to use one. The older computer works with shifters 7803, 6603, 5603 and older. I think the OP could continue to use an existing harness with a new (last generation) 10 speed computer.
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Old 03-18-13, 01:11 PM   #7
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Thanks to all that have responded.
This is where i am so far... I am thinking of ordering the 10 sp Ultegra shifters, the 10 sp 11-36 XT cassette and 10sp xt long cage RD, any comments on that?
I need help finding a source for the 10 sp chainrings (28-39-50) and FD that would fit my ultegra crank arms
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Old 03-18-13, 03:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by cornucopia72 View Post
Thanks to all that have responded.
This is where i am so far... I am thinking of ordering the 10 sp Ultegra shifters, the 10 sp 11-36 XT cassette and 10sp xt long cage RD, any comments on that?
I need help finding a source for the 10 sp chainrings (28-39-50) and FD that would fit my ultegra crank arms
I have used a 9 speed Shimano road rear derailleur to shift 10 speed road as long as you have 10 speed road shifters. Unless you want to change it for weight savings or another reason I would give the old RD a chance before mounting the new unit.
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Old 03-18-13, 04:06 PM   #9
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38 is the smallest you can go on a standard 130BCD. So you may as well get a matched Shimano or FSA 39-50 or 39-52 for a triple. I found the 26 to 39 to be a huge jump and the 28 works smoother.

I've tried a generic granny from Tandems East and TA rings from Harris Cyclery. They all needed to be spaced out differently than Shimano or FSA so be prepared to experiment with chainring spacers.

Warning-the new Flight Deck is expensive. The OP didn't specify if he wants to use one. The older computer works with shifters 7803, 6603, 5603 and older. I think the OP could continue to use an existing harness with a new (last generation) 10 speed computer.
I put a Race Face 24T ring on my FSA tiple crank to replace the original 30T ring. Fit just fine. The inner edges of the ring clears the MegaExo FSA external bearings by a bit more than 1/16". Look for the 24T rings as they were on close out on amazon a few weeks ago... something like $9 each
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Old 03-18-13, 10:33 PM   #10
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I have used a 9 speed Shimano road rear derailleur to shift 10 speed road as long as you have 10 speed road shifters. Unless you want to change it for weight savings or another reason I would give the old RD a chance before mounting the new unit.
OK. My current RD is an XTR 9sp. Will it work with the 11-36 cassette? If it does then I will only get a replacement pulley set.
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Old 03-19-13, 11:23 AM   #11
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Generally 9 speed cassettes stopped at 34 but Shimano does have a HG61 cassette with a 36 tooth cog. I have not tried that combination so I don't know. Many components' specifications are rather conservative so I suspect it will work but the only way to know for sure is to give it a try. The other option is to follow Shimano's advice and buy a new RD that is certain to work.
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Old 03-19-13, 03:36 PM   #12
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Try it with your existing derailer first, you can always buy the 10sp derailer later if you're not happy with the performance. Sheldon Brown has a nice article on derailer adjustment, he mentions using a longer b-screw or reversing the screw for Shimano 36T cogs:

"A larger low-gear sprocket may require a different rear derailer, for enough angle adjustment to clear the sprocket. In extreme cases, such as with a Shimano 36-tooth sprocket, a longer angle-adjustment screw may be needed -- some people even install the screw backwards."

http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adj....html#btension
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Old 03-19-13, 09:57 PM   #13
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Try it with your existing derailer first, you can always buy the 10sp derailer later if you're not happy with the performance. Sheldon Brown has a nice article on derailer adjustment, he mentions using a longer b-screw or reversing the screw for Shimano 36T cogs:

"A larger low-gear sprocket may require a different rear derailer, for enough angle adjustment to clear the sprocket. In extreme cases, such as with a Shimano 36-tooth sprocket, a longer angle-adjustment screw may be needed -- some people even install the screw backwards."

http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adj....html#btension
Following Wayne's and WheelsNT's advice I am ordering the 10 speed Durace chain, the XT 11-36 cassette and the Ultegra triple 10 sp shifters. I still want to find a source for the chainrings 28-39-52 that will fit my Ultegra 9 speed cranks. They need to be replaced regardless of how well the shifting works because they are pretty worn now. Thanks
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Old 03-19-13, 10:06 PM   #14
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Following Wayne's and WheelsNT's advice I am ordering the 10 speed Durace chain, the XT 11-36 cassette and the Ultegra triple 10 sp shifters. I still want to find a source for the chainrings 28-39-52 that will fit my Ultegra 9 speed cranks. They need to be replaced regardless of how well the shifting works because they are pretty worn now. Thanks
We use the stock 39T Ultegra 10 speed middle ring and the stock 9 speed 52T. Works for us with our 9 speed FD. Peter White has a long discussion of what cages work best with which ring combinations. According to him what we do shouldn't work, but it does. Brand of inner ring shouldn't matter. Peter White sells TA, very nice rings. Salsa rings have worked for us. LBS will have or can order.
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Old 03-19-13, 10:44 PM   #15
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Hi,
Our lowest gear ratio is 0.88 if could get it down to 0.8 that would be great.
Have you heard about the SRAM XX1 Cassette? 42t ought to do it. You'd need to convert to 11-speed, but since you are changing shifters anyway...

FIRST OF ITS KIND

Ranging from 10- to 42-teeth, the 11-speed X-DOME™ delivers an incredibly wide gear range while maintaining even, optimized steps. The single-unit cassette combines with the XD™ driver body for a superior connection to the wheel.
  • 11-speeds (10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42)
  • Bearing design and ratchet mechanism steadied by XD driver body
  • Creates more stable hub connection
  • Gear steps optimized across entire range
  • Wheels equipped for XD driver body available from SRAM, DT Swiss and Mavic
  • XD driver body is 6-8g lighter
  • Weight: 260 grams

  • Technology Highlight(s) X-Dome, XD DRIVER BODY
  • Weight........ 260 grams
  • Material........ 4130 Chromoly
  • Gear Ratios........ 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42
  • Speeds........ 11 Speed
  • Recommended Chain........ PC-XX1
  • Recommended Group........ XX1
  • Other........ XD driver body compatible
  • Compatibility........ XX1 11 Speed




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Old 03-20-13, 06:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
Have you heard about the SRAM XX1 Cassette? 42t ought to do it. You'd need to convert to 11-speed, but since you are changing shifters anyway...

FIRST OF ITS KIND

Ranging from 10- to 42-teeth, the 11-speed X-DOME delivers an incredibly wide gear range while maintaining even, optimized steps. The single-unit cassette combines with the XD driver body for a superior connection to the wheel.
  • 11-speeds (10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42)
  • Bearing design and ratchet mechanism steadied by XD driver body
  • Creates more stable hub connection
  • Gear steps optimized across entire range
  • Wheels equipped for XD driver body available from SRAM, DT Swiss and Mavic
  • XD driver body is 6-8g lighter
  • Weight: 260 grams

  • Technology Highlight(s) X-Dome, XD DRIVER BODY
  • Weight........ 260 grams
  • Material........ 4130 Chromoly
  • Gear Ratios........ 10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-42
  • Speeds........ 11 Speed
  • Recommended Chain........ PC-XX1
  • Recommended Group........ XX1
  • Other........ XD driver body compatible
  • Compatibility........ XX1 11 Speed




WOW - looking at the 420% gear range we can go with a single ring and no front shifting with that one. If you like a wide range cassette then that is really wide and really light for a big cassette.

"even steps? ?

The shift from 10 to 12 shift is a 20% jump, while shift from 16 to 18 shift is 12.5% increase. Hardly even steps in terms of percentage change although even in number of teeth I suppose (both 2 tooth increase).
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Old 04-04-13, 10:01 AM   #17
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We ended up replacing the drive train except for crankset and BB:
Ultegra 6703 STI shifters and FD
XT M772 SGS RD and CS-M771 10 sp 11-36 cassette
Dura Ace 10 sp chain
FSA 52/39/28 chainrings. The granny is steel
We rode it last night and we like it. This weekend we will try it in som 17-20% grades
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Old 04-05-13, 09:54 PM   #18
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That is one heck of a cassette!
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Old 04-08-13, 10:48 PM   #19
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We did the upper Lopez Lake Rd. in and out ride. Only 35 miles and almost 3,000' from our place in Arroyo Grande. The tandem did fine in the long steep grades. The shifting was good but not great. We have a disc brake in the back and in the descents I had to adjust the pads twice because they were fading. We are glad we did these changes but we may be getting too old for the very steep grades.
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Old 04-09-13, 06:25 AM   #20
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The XX1 requires a special hub to accomodate the 10 tooth cog. Not sure there's something tandem appropriate. Pretty certain there isn't one with 160mm spacing.
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Old 04-16-13, 08:20 AM   #21
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We've just upgraded our 2003 Speedster to Ultegra 10 spd but we went with the Ultegra tandem crankset as well. Dura-Ace chain but only an 11-28 cassette. I'm not super pleased with being locked into Shimano chainrings or with the 30 tooth granny but there aren't a lot of options out there and for our use close to 1:1 is fine. Due to a late spring here in Ottawa it hasn't seen the road yet but we expect to be out this weekend. I'll report back on the shifting with the Ultegra crankset and a narrower range cassette. The old 9 spd moved over to our dirt road tandem which has seen lots of use so I'll be able to provide a "side by side" comparison of the performance.

On the workstand it seems like the new brake levers take up quite a bit more cable so I'm expecting improved braking feel - have you noticed that?
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