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  1. #101
    Rod & Judy gracehowler's Avatar
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    Good info and pics! What are you running for rotors?
    R&J

  2. #102
    I'd rather be riding DKMcK's Avatar
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    Ordered the Spyre today via LBS. They are going to swap me a set of pads for the 160 rotor.

  3. #103
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKMcK View Post
    Ordered the Spyre today via LBS. They are going to swap me a set of pads for the 160 rotor.
    TRP sells the Spyre with a rotor, which isn't 203 mm (see, they aren't thinking of tandems). So, they delete the rotor and sell for a lesser price, or throw in something else, such as a set of pads. That is useful for a tandem, because I think tandems go through pads a lot faster. TRP also did not have a 203 mm mount, so I had to use my old mount. TRP threw in an extra pad for the mount as well.

  4. #104
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    We've got a couple of rides in now with the TRP Spyre SLC, including a moderate descent this morning.

    And it is two thumbs up for both captain and stoker on this brake.

    I cannot make a direct comparison to the Avid BB7, as with Campy levers, the BB7 required the Brake Power Booster to operate acceptably. The BPB provided earlier engagement, but may have robbed of some power. The Spyre SLC has a direct cable line. Its engagement is nearly as early with the BB7 with the BPB. With further lever action I am not flexing the BPB, and so the cable pulls directly on the brake arm.

    Given this arrangement, it appears to me that the Spyre is at least as powerful as the BPB assisted BB7. Modulation is better, and it is shhh! vewwy, vewwy ...we are hunting wabbits quiet. I think the rotor likes being squeezed between two pistons much more than being pinned down by one piston to the BB7's immobile base.
    Good news! I run Campy levers with the BB7's and don't use any booster and have decent lever pull - but I also have an inline cable adjuster which takes out all slack in the cable and helps a lot. To know that these work even better in that respect is good news. I'm also running the Ice Tech rotors so it appears to be a simple bolt on. Might just have to pick some of these up.
    Administrator and Contributing Editor - Vortex Media Group

  5. #105
    Senior Member dwmckee's Avatar
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    I just installed the HY/RD calipers on a single touring bike (commotion),. All I can say is WOW. And I was always happy with BB7s too. These are smooth as silk and stop like a Porsche with a very light touch. Avid look out kuz there is a new sheriff in town!

  6. #106
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    We just completed a tour of the Rhine / Mosselle rivers in France and on a descent from one of the castles we managed to melt a Xt ice tech rotor. Actually two of use did it on a 200 meter elevation loss 15% grade descent. I had a standard ice tech rotor and Hy/Rd caliper. The other tandem had a special machined Ice Tech saint rotor with the extra aluminum cooling fins and they melted the rotor and cooling fins. He was using a Bengal caliper. We are both experienced at steep descents. I replaced the rotor with a two piece Hope rotor and had no further trouble. The Hy/Rd worked very well although cable tension is critical for optimum performance.

  7. #107
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    That's just lovely. Suppose the money I just spent on that ice-tech was as good as flushing it.

  8. #108
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    ...we managed to melt a Xt ice tech rotor. Actually two of use did it on a 200 meter elevation loss 15% grade descent. I had a standard ice tech rotor and Hy/Rd caliper. The other tandem had a special machined Ice Tech saint rotor with the extra aluminum cooling fins and they melted the rotor and cooling fins. ... I replaced the rotor with a two piece Hope rotor and had no further trouble.
    There are several lessons here:
    • The descents melting the IceTech rotors are very rigorous. Such as your prolonged 15% grade, these long twisty alpine (as in The Alps) descents are more common in Europe than the U.S.
    • The Hy/Rd caliper accepts the Hope Ventilated Rotor. The Avid BB7 does not.
    • The TRP Spyre might accept the Hope Ventilated rotor, that hasn't been confirmed that I've seen.
    • The IceTech is a great rotor, up until the point it melts.
    • For non-epic riding with a normal weight team, the IceTech appears to be fine. The ride we just completed had 5000 feet of climbing/descent in 46 miles, but the Highway 9 descent is a non-technical 6-7% grade that isn't going to melt any IceTechs. Mt. Umunhum, with a 10% grade x 5 miles, very well might.
    • Those embarking on epic descents with Hy/Rd (and maybe the Spyre) can switch to the Hope Ventilated, and be confident in its heat capacity.
    • The 203 mm Hope Ventilated weighs 288 grams, >100 grams more than the IceTech.




    Hope Ventilated Rotor

  9. #109
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    We've flatted on Mt Umunhum before, back when using 26" rims with cantis, and boy that Velocity rim was HOT! A 10% grade doesn't do it justice as there are stretches at up to 18%. Throw in the road surface which is better suited for a mountain bike, and that's not a hill I'll be doing on the tandem again in the future - disc brakes or not. I never did figure out if it was the heat or the potholes that caused the flat. Lots of fun finishing the descent on a soft tire pumped up by a compact frame pump.
    Stuart


    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    There are several lessons here:
    • The descents melting the IceTech rotors are very rigorous. Such as your prolonged 15% grade, these long twisty alpine (as in The Alps) descents are more common in Europe than the U.S.
    • The Hy/Rd caliper accepts the Hope Ventilated Rotor. The Avid BB7 does not.
    • The TRP Spyre might accept the Hope Ventilated rotor, that hasn't been confirmed that I've seen.
    • The IceTech is a great rotor, up until the point it melts.
    • For non-epic riding with a normal weight team, the IceTech appears to be fine. The ride we just completed had 5000 feet of climbing/descent in 46 miles, but the Highway 9 descent is a non-technical 6-7% grade that isn't going to melt any IceTechs. Mt. Umunhum, with a 10% grade x 5 miles, very well might.
    • Those embarking on epic descents with Hy/Rd (and maybe the Spyre) can switch to the Hope Ventilated, and be confident in its heat capacity.
    • The 203 mm Hope Ventilated weighs 288 grams, >100 grams more than the IceTech.




    Hope Ventilated Rotor
    Last edited by SaddleSoar; 08-10-13 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #110
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Heat build up in disc rotors here in Sonoma County is a major concern if climbing areas such as The Geysers, King Ridge/Scaggs Springs, Trinity Grade. We no longer like screaming down these hills at 55+mph. Can't stop at that speed with a Caliper/Disc combo if needed in panic mode. Now, if that Hope rotor can take the heat and the fluid will not boil we can keep our speed in check on these decents, say below 40mph, we can once again explore these back roads with a cushion. Mabey the stoker should start wearing a parachute for emergency situations.

  11. #111
    Senior Member colotandem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    ...
    • The Hy/Rd caliper accepts the Hope Ventilated Rotor. The Avid BB7 does not.
    • The TRP Spyre might accept the Hope Ventilated rotor, that hasn't been confirmed that I've seen...




    Hope Ventilated Rotor
    I don't know if akexpress said that the Hope Ventilated Rotor fits on the TRP HY/RD. I think he said that it works with a Hope two piece rotor. I am not sure that those are one in the same.

    All this brake talk makes me wonder if we need a tips and tricks for tandem disc thread?

  12. #112
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colotandem View Post
    I don't know if akexpress said that the Hope Ventilated Rotor fits on the TRP HY/RD. I think he said that it works with a Hope two piece rotor. I am not sure that those are one in the same.
    Excellent point. Hope has three types of rotors.



    According to Hope's terminolgy, these are from Left to Right, Fixed, Floating and Vented.

    This is explained here. The Floating is indeed the two part, not the Vented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope Tech
    TO AVOID ANY PERMANENT DEFORMATION EVEN UNDER
    THE MOST SEVERE CONDITIONS A FLOATING DISC IS
    CONSTRUCTED IN TWO PARTS. AN ALUMINIUM CENTRE PART
    CARRIER WHICH IS FIXED TO THE HUB AND A STAINLESS
    ROTOR PART IN CONTACT WITH THE BRAKE PADS.
    
    Since the Hope puts only stainless steel in contact with brake parts, it isn't going to melt so easily as the IceTech, which has aluminum (melting temp 1220 F) sandwiched between steel (2750 F). I don't see how Shimano gets past the considerably different coefficients of thermal expansion of aluminum and steel in this configuration, 22.2 and 13 (10-6 m/m K) *) respectively.

    Interestingly, the Hope 203 mm floating rotor has the same weight as the IceTech, 169 grams.

    Too bad no one makes a magnesium carrier rotor in 203 mm, such as Scrub does in 160 mm.


  13. #113
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview;15946872[*
    The Hy/Rd caliper accepts the Hope Ventilated Rotor. The Avid BB7 does not.
    [/LIST]



    Hope Ventilated Rotor
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  14. #114
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkane77g View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ?????????????????

  15. #115
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colotandem View Post
    I don't know if akexpress said that the Hope Ventilated Rotor fits on the TRP HY/RD. I think he said that it works with a Hope two piece rotor.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^aimed at this quote.

  16. #116
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    Sorry for the slow response but we are still traveling home from the trip. Yes we are now using the Hope "floating rotor" not the vented rotor. this has been our go to rotor for European descents as it has been trouble free and pretty quite and has not warped in any descent. We tried the Shimano hoping for more heat dissipation but went into it with caution. With even the Saint melting the experiment is finished as having a failure in a descent can be harrowing. My opinion of the Hy/Rd is good with the caveat that it is sensitive to cable adjustment. It does not have a long throw and the best braking is near the lever at the bar so if the pads wear and you don't adjust for that it becomes ineffective. With everything in adjustment it seems to have the best braking of any of the disc systems we have used so far. (Avid, Bengal and now the Hy/Rd). We are using Ultegra DI2 levers with them. The Hy/RD is quite and does not rattle like some other systems. It did not experience any fluid boiling problems at any time and we used EBC gold pads. They ultimate tandem disc brake system is still not there yet but it is getting better all the time. Supposedly Shimano will have Ultegra DI2 hydraulic levers in the fall available so that may change the game entirely.

  17. #117
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    Even the hydraulic levers may not be the solution as their master cylinder size will be matched to their own calipers.
    This may well be too small for the calipers that we want to use on the tandems.

  18. #118
    Senior Member colotandem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    Sorry for the slow response but we are still traveling home from the trip. Yes we are now using the Hope "floating rotor" not the vented rotor. this has been our go to rotor for European descents as it has been trouble free and pretty quite and has not warped in any descent. We tried the Shimano hoping for more heat dissipation but went into it with caution. With even the Saint melting the experiment is finished as having a failure in a descent can be harrowing. My opinion of the Hy/Rd is good with the caveat that it is sensitive to cable adjustment. It does not have a long throw and the best braking is near the lever at the bar so if the pads wear and you don't adjust for that it becomes ineffective. With everything in adjustment it seems to have the best braking of any of the disc systems we have used so far. (Avid, Bengal and now the Hy/Rd). We are using Ultegra DI2 levers with them. The Hy/RD is quite and does not rattle like some other systems. It did not experience any fluid boiling problems at any time and we used EBC gold pads. They ultimate tandem disc brake system is still not there yet but it is getting better all the time. Supposedly Shimano will have Ultegra DI2 hydraulic levers in the fall available so that may change the game entirely.
    I'm not giving up on the TRP HY/RD yet, when adjusted properly, it works great! The adjustment that akexpress is talking about is just a barrel adjuster where the cable housing enters the Hydraulic caliper (or you could put an inline adjuster near the handlebar). It's really just to compensate for pad wear. But I would agree with akexpress in that the "sweet spot" is relatively small. But I found that to be the case with the BB7 with a road lever too.

    That said, we are currently set up with our lighter weight wheels and rim brakes front and rear, so I will not be doing much testing for now. Next time we are doing any extended climbs, we'll have the HY/RD mated with the Hope floating rotor.

  19. #119
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    My opinion of the Hy/Rd is good with the caveat that it is sensitive to cable adjustment. It does not have a long throw and the best braking is near the lever at the bar so if the pads wear and you don't adjust for that it becomes ineffective.
    Aye, there's the rub, or rather the lack of rub. With Campy shifters, the throw was inadequate for BB7, and required a brake booster. The TRP Spyre has been much better, and I am obtaining engagement within the first 1/3 of the lever travel. With a lot of brake use, this will need to be adjusted, but this is really easy with the symmetrically squeezing dual piston Spyre.

    I want to make every millimeter of lever action count, and to that end I am going to revise my brake cable to straighten its path. I also want the cable housing to be as compression-less as possible. I started a thread on Weight Weenies to ask about the least compressionable brake cable housing, and the learned consensus was Nokons.

    Brake cable housing for road disc.


    Quote Originally Posted by "madcow"
    We've recently built a brake test jig and have tested a bunch of caliper brakes, once we write and publish the results we'll be using the same jig to do some testing on brake levers, cables and perhaps of more interest to you cable housing compression. My gut feeling is that Nokon will top the chart in compression.

  20. #120
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    So what is the quantitative difference in the cable pulls of the Shimano versus the Campy brifters? I've heard claims on both sides, but never seen any data from the mfgs or any third party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    Aye, there's the rub, or rather the lack of rub. With Campy shifters, the throw was inadequate for BB7, and required a brake booster. The TRP Spyre has been much better, and I am obtaining engagement within the first 1/3 of the lever travel. With a lot of brake use, this will need to be adjusted, but this is really easy with the symmetrically squeezing dual piston Spyre.

    I want to make every millimeter of lever action count, and to that end I am going to revise my brake cable to straighten its path. I also want the cable housing to be as compression-less as possible. I started a thread on Weight Weenies to ask about the least compressionable brake cable housing, and the learned consensus was Nokons.

    Brake cable housing for road disc.

  21. #121
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    I know my Campy levers have about 10mm (3/8") of cable pull. Haven't measured Shimano.

  22. #122
    Tandem Mountain Climber
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    The HyRd should automatically compensate for pad wear (once they are readjusted after pad break-in).

    The problem I have right now is fluid expansion.

    We were descending HWY 84 E from Sky Londa back to Woodside, the TRP HyRd (and the 28mm Ultremos) were just amazing. About half way down we caught up to some slow vehicle traffic (damn cars!), and I had to ride the brakes a bit more then I would if I was descending at my own pace.

    By the bottom of the hill, the fluid expanded quite a bit. The fluid expansion pushed in the pistons. As such, all my lever travel was gone... meaning the brakes would engage at the slightest touch of the brake lever. On a more severe descent, this expansion might even engage the brakes!!

    On a positive note, the brakes never had fade or lost power at all, even with the fluid expansion and no lever travel.

    So, I thought...

    - Well maybe the fluid reservoir is overfilled?
    --- I opened it up and there is a diaphragm that fits just under the cover. That allows for expansion, while keeping air out.
    --- The fluid level was where it should be.
    --- There is very little fluid in this system

    - I probably have the cable adjuster just a tad bit too tight.
    --- Probably so, but this was a lot of expansion. Even with the tension slightly looser, there would have been a problem.

    So I am thinking about increasing the fluid capacity of the system by adding a piece which expands the capacity of the reservoir, and provides a larger heat sink.



    Last edited by uspspro; 08-17-13 at 06:03 PM.

  23. #123
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uspspro View Post
    <snip>
    We were descending HWY 84 E from Sky Londa back to Woodside, the TRP HyRd (and the 28mm Ultremos) were just amazing.
    <snip>
    You're running the 28s on your new 22mm rims?
    Thanks.

  24. #124
    Tandem Mountain Climber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    You're running the 28s on your new 22mm rims?
    Thanks.
    23mm rims, yes.

  25. #125
    Senior Member Team Fab's Avatar
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    Is it possible that there was any air in the system?
    Also what type of brake fluid do they use? Some fluids boil at lower temps?
    When i would do any brake work on my racing motorcycles I would flush the system over and over to make sure no air possible in system. I would also tap the caliper to help any bubbles come loose.

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