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-   -   Upgrading Macchaito tandem to 11 speed Dura Ace 9000 (http://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cycling/900331-upgrading-macchaito-tandem-11-speed-dura-ace-9000-a.html)

Bad1 07-08-13 10:51 PM

Upgrading Macchaito tandem to 11 speed Dura Ace 9000
 
Now that Ulterga 6800 is slowly being released, I want to use the RD mid length cage off the Ulterga to run the 6800 11-32 cassette, my question is will the mid length cage bolt up to the 9000 RD body?

Ritterview 07-08-13 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15829548)
Now that Ulterga 6800 is slowly being released, I want to use the RD mid length cage off the Ulterga to run the 6800 11-32 cassette, my question is will the mid length cage bolt up to the 9000 RD body?


I don't know. But if you find someone that does know for Shimano, ask them if the same goes for Campagnolo Athena long cage and Super Record RD. The Athena long cage RD allowed me to use a 52-39-28 drivetrain, and shifts better, but I'd sorely like to have my SR RD returned, but sporting the longer Athena cage.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8089/8...2719a84c_z.jpg http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5306/5...7b9e514c_z.jpg

waynesulak 07-09-13 11:00 AM

Looks like your have both RDs. Take them apart and see if the Athena cage will work on the Record?

The "technical documents" on the Campy site seems to just cover installation and adjustment but there is a good explosion diagram of the RD in the parts catalog at the link below:

http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/doc/doccatid_3.jsp

DubT 07-09-13 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15829548)
Now that Ulterga 6800 is slowly being released, I want to use the RD mid length cage off the Ulterga to run the 6800 11-32 cassette, my question is will the mid length cage bolt up to the 9000 RD body?

Why don't you use the new Ultegra 6800 RD that is designed to be used with the 11-32 cassette? Are you running a triple or a double?

Bad1 07-09-13 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubT (Post 15831422)
Why don't you use the new Ultegra 6800 RD that is designed to be used with the 11-32 cassette? Are you running a triple or a double?

Will be running a double as soon as the Ulterga RD arrives with 11-32 cassette, just waiting on those two items two weeks out before switching all component

DubT 07-09-13 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15831482)
Will be running a double as soon as the Ulterga RD arrives with 11-32 cassette, just waiting on those two items two weeks out before switching all component

what double will you be running?

Bad1 07-09-13 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubT (Post 15831602)
what double will you be running?

Will be using Lightning crankset with Praxis mid-compact 52-36

Bad1 07-09-13 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15831912)
Will be using Lightning crankset with Praxis mid-compact 52-36

Also in regards to the RD I'd like to use that Dura Ace for its lighter weight and smoother shifting
function with the 6800 mid cage if possible, if not will run a Dura Ace RD with 11-28 cassette for all local riding areas, and switch over to the Ulterga 6800 RD & 11-32 cassette when we know its going to get steeper.

Chris_W 07-11-13 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15831953)
Also in regards to the RD I'd like to use that Dura Ace for its lighter weight and smoother shifting.

I've never detected a shifting advantage of a DA versus Ultegra RD. The shifters certainly feel a little different between the DA and Ultegra, but if you keep the shifters constant and only change the RD then I cannot see that you'll notice a difference. The weight difference appears to be about 30 grams (162 grams vs. 195 grams according to some sources for 9000 vs. 6800), so I wouldn't bother about changing out derailleurs or swapping cages just for that.

Ritterview 07-11-13 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_W (Post 15838243)
I've never detected a shifting advantage of a DA versus Ultegra RD. The shifters certainly feel a little different between the DA and Ultegra, but if you keep the shifters constant and only change the RD then I cannot see that you'll see a difference. The weight difference appears to be about 30 grams (162 grams vs. 195 grams according to some sources), so I wouldn't bother about changing out derailleurs or swapping cages just for that.


The difference between SR and Athena RDs is 44 grams (Athena 216 grams and SR 172 grams).

So, Chris_W, I would bother for that (and the SR with its carbon looks a lot better). Any idea whether the Athena cage will bolt onto the SR RD, and if so, how easily?

Bad1 07-11-13 11:27 AM

With this build that I am doing I intend to shave off 2# off the existing Macchiato weight, which is 25# with cages & pedals, so I shouldn't do this or I shouldn't do that has no sway in my decision , I am more in tune with "Ritterview" thought process when making a decision such as this!

waynesulak 07-11-13 11:30 AM

The Athena RD weighed in the link includes the long cage. Transferring it to the Super Record will also replace a short carbon cage with a long aluminum one and transfer some if not most of the 44 grams. Possibly the question should be would you go through the trouble of swapping cages for about 22 grams.

My guess is that it will fit though. I would suspect Campy did not spend the money to design two separate 11 speed RDs for the high and low price points. The usual approach is to substitute individually lighter carbon parts for heavier aluminum using the same design.

Ritterview 07-11-13 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynesulak (Post 15839623)
Possibly the question should be would you go through the trouble of swapping cages for about 22 grams.

My guess is that it will fit though. I would suspect Campy did not spend the money to design two separate 11 speed RDs for the high and low price points.

Its the guessing that is the problem. If I could find someone that knew, and knew how to do it, then it would be no trouble at all...child's play.

If it saves 22 grams, then I'm all for it. Many a little makes a mickle. And there is no getting around that the SR looks a lot better, not that I care about that a whit.

waynesulak 07-11-13 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritterview (Post 15840343)
Its the guessing that is the problem. If I could find someone that knew, and knew how to do it, then it would be no trouble at all...child's play.

If it saves 22 grams, then I'm all for it. Many a little makes a mickle. And there is no getting around that the SR looks a lot better, not that I care about that a whit.

Your right that guessing doesn't do a whole lot of good. :o Since no one has come forward with an answer, I suppose the only way we will find out is if someone wants to invest the time needed to give it a try.

Ritterview 07-11-13 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15839610)

Will be running a Lightning crankset with Praxis mid-compact 52-36 double... Ultegra RD... 11-32 cassette.... I intend to shave off 2 lbs off the existing Macchiato weight, which is 25 lb.

I am more in tune with "Ritterview" thought process ...

  • Drop 2 lbs from 25 lb Macchioto....:thumb:
  • Lighting crankset...:thumb:
  • Praxis chainrings....:thumb:
  • Dura Ace > Ultegra :thumb:
  • Double on tandem, but with wide-spaced cassette... :eek:

If you are in Florida, or the Great Plains, or Holland, sure, a double is fine. But if there are hills to climb, and fast riders on on a group ride to keep up with, a double on a tandem with a wide spaced cassette to me is an anathema. This thread features a robust discussion of tandem gearing Di2 double conundrum.

joe@vwvortex 07-11-13 04:42 PM

Looking at the Campy catalog for spare parts, there should be no reason that the Athena cage wouldn't mount up as it shares the same tension spring and pulleys at least by part number as the Super Record.

Bad1 07-11-13 05:15 PM

I wouldn't necessarily call central Oregon flat! Looking out my back yard I see 6-7 different peaks over 8-9 k!

Ritterview 07-11-13 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex (Post 15840861)
Looking at the Campy catalog for spare parts, there should be no reason that the Athena cage wouldn't mount up as it shares the same tension spring and pulleys at least by part number as the Super Record.

From the Campy parts catalog. The body of the RD in SR is RD-SR120, but I don't see a corresponding number for Athena.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5348/9...7277ee8d_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/9...3b2250dd_b.jpg

joe@vwvortex 07-11-13 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritterview (Post 15841118)
From the Campy parts catalog. The body of the RD in SR is RD-SR120, but I don't see a corresponding number for Athena.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5348/9...7277ee8d_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/9...3b2250dd_b.jpg

Shouldn't matter IMHO. All the mounting parts share the same part numbers. So I believe it would be safe to assume they would be interchangeable. Of course you would be better off visual inspecting before disassembly.

Bad1 07-11-13 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15840984)
I wouldn't necessarily call central Oregon flat! Looking out my back yard I see 6-7 different peaks over 8-9 k!

Seems like last year here in Bend all those fine tandem teams gathered here for Nationals, those teams riding Paketa VR2 with "double chainrings" sure cleaned up in the flats!

Ritterview 07-11-13 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad1 (Post 15840984)
I wouldn't necessarily call central Oregon flat! Looking out my back yard I see 6-7 different peaks over 8-9 k!

According to the Strava Heat Map, most of the rides emanating out of the Willamette Valley are to the surrounding hills.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3722/9...78b8e435_b.jpg

Looks like triple terrain to me!

Bad1 07-11-13 08:20 PM

Great rides out of that area very scenic, Not in that area though In the Cascade Mtns. Range even steeper.

rahill 07-11-13 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex (Post 15841166)
Shouldn't matter IMHO. All the mounting parts share the same part numbers. So I believe it would be safe to assume they would be interchangeable. Of course you would be better off visual inspecting before disassembly.

What's difficult about making that conclusion from these diagrams is the cage mounting bolt (the bit that matters) is not called out by part number. Instead we get part numbers that include the cage and the mounting bolt. It's impossible to tell whether the bolt is specific to the cage and derailleur or not. That cage spring (RD-SR008) is a common part, and has been since 9-speed (at least), but that doesn't mean much - it's also used on the Veloce derailleur and that model seems to use a circlip instead of a bolt to hold the cage on!

waynesulak 07-12-13 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahill (Post 15841821)
What's difficult about making that conclusion from these diagrams is the cage mounting bolt (the bit that matters) is not called out by part number. Instead we get part numbers that include the cage and the mounting bolt. It's impossible to tell whether the bolt is specific to the cage and derailleur or not. That cage spring (RD-SR008) is a common part, and has been since 9-speed (at least), but that doesn't mean much - it's also used on the Veloce derailleur and that model seems to use a circlip instead of a bolt to hold the cage on!

The connecting bolt may be specific to the cage but if the threading in the body is the same on both then the bolt could be changed with the cage and it would still work.

If the time is spent to give it a try and it does not fit then both RDs can be cleaned lubed and reassembled and no harm done other than time wasted. Personally too much trouble for me considering the small grams saved but if 22 grams is meaningful to the rider then there is little downside to trying it.

rahill 07-12-13 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynesulak (Post 15842482)
If the time is spent to give it a try and it does not fit then both RDs can be cleaned lubed and reassembled and no harm done other than time wasted. Personally too much trouble for me considering the small grams saved but if 22 grams is meaningful to the rider then there is little downside to trying it.

Agreed, and the SR derailleur certainly looks better.

I suspect the most time consuming part of the process will be tracking down the cage return spring after you undo the bolt and the spring shoots off into some unknown part of your garage.


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