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  1. #1
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Shimano Ice Rotor

    Doesn't work with the BB-7 without a bit of trimming to the inside tab on the brake pads. Runs very true, nice piece.

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    I personally know of three Ice rotors that have melted the alu out of the sandwich. We are one of them. IMHO they are not suitable for tandem use on big descents. I like two piece rotors but the experiment with the Ice tech is over for us. All three of the teams are experienced mountain riders and did not use them as drag brakes. YRMV.

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    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    I personally know of three Ice rotors that have melted the alu out of the sandwich. We are one of them. IMHO they are not suitable for tandem use on big descents. I like two piece rotors but the experiment with the Ice tech is over for us. All three of the teams are experienced mountain riders and did not use them as drag brakes. YRMV.
    Honestly, I did not predict or expect it melting the aluminum. I have no experience with the ICE rotor, but suspected it was an adhesive bonded type construction. Pretty tough to match thermal expansion properties between aluminum and whatever face sheet metal they used on the braking surface.

    By the sounds of it AK, yourself and descending friends will be running Carbon / Carbon brake discs and applicable pads when you head to the mountains. I have a brochure at work on my desk about the disc technology. Good for some silly hot 3600 degrees C. If I recall correct, the brakes cold performance is not so good.

    On a serious consideration, maybe it is time to design a dual caliper brake perch with an interconnect pullrod that can adjust how the second caliper is applied and when it engages. This could be done via an adjustable length rod and how the brake arms are clocked to each other.

    Sounds like the brake caliper and pads do not have enough thermal / energy capacity to absorb the loads, the pads glaze, then things get ugly. Doubling the calipers would possibly bring the thermal / energy capacity back for each caliper.

    PK
    2006 Co-Motion Roadster, flat bars, discs and carbon fibre fork, size 22 / 19
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    I personally know of three Ice rotors that have melted the alu out of the sandwich. We are one of them. IMHO they are not suitable for tandem use on big descents. I like two piece rotors but the experiment with the Ice tech is over for us. All three of the teams are experienced mountain riders and did not use them as drag brakes. YRMV.
    Not quite what I wanted to read three days before D2R2!

    We've had the Ice Tech on our dirt road tandem since about March this year and I've been pretty happy with it. We've done some hairy and fast dirt/trail descents but around here you don't get more than about 600 feet of vertical in a single drop. On Saturday we'll be riding D2R2 and the biggest drops are twice that.

    I'm not changing out equipment this close to the event - any advice for monitoring the rotor? Any feedback on how long the descent was that killed your rotor or just how much braking you had to do?

    Thanks
    Steve

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    Steve
    I think mtn tandems really are a different beast. One I assume you have dual discs and this allows you to use both of them alternatively and powerfully which mitigates the heat buildup to a great degree. Also the speeds in general are not as high. On the descent we melted we had hit a top speed of 49 and then had to slow down to the thirties due to blind corners and poorer road surface. It seems most hills in the US don't have long stretches of 15% grade however in Europe it is pretty common. We have two full suspension mtn tandems with full hydraulics and have some done some significant descents on them here in Alaska and in Moab and the brakes are up to the task. Also on dirt the traction factor comes into play. On a road tandem the traction is so great you can apply the brakes as hard as you can and not skid ( at least with the mechanical discs we all presently use). The failure was sudden when the melting temp was hit however the good part is I still had brakes as it just did it in one area but now pulsed significantly as the disc essentially got narrower in that spot. If I had stopped to allow it to cool when it first started squealing loudly it probably would not have melted. Us and our riding partners are not foolish and frequently stop to allow the brakes to cool however I did not expect the melting on the this descent as it was not that long and we could see the bottom. We both pointed to the road sign at the top that said 15% grade as we started so we were not surprised going into it. the other team that melted had a special machined Saint Ice tech rotor modified to fit a standard 6 bolt hole pattern with the cooling fins ;and they had the same failure and the cooling fins melted also. He is very experienced and we descended Mt Ventoux with them and he only had rim brakes and extra water bottles that they used for cooling the rims as they descended ( his guest stoker was pretty terrified that his job on the way down was to spray the rim!!!). We are a 320 lb team and they are probably a few pounds lighter. We have used Avid, Bengal and now the TRD Hy/ RD for calipers in our quest for the best brake setup. The ICE rotor is probably fine for normal riding but not an advantage then because it it touted to dissipate the heat which really is not a problem in that riding. My recommendation for your event if it starts squealing really loud stop and allow it to cool. I do not know much other then the website about D2R2 i so I am not much help for you.
    Mark

  6. #6
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    I've been following the TRP Spyre thread and read with interest the reports of the melting ICE rotors as we've been running them on our tandem. We spent 5 weeks this summer riding in the Italian Alps and the Dolomites and did lots of long relatively steep descents without any problems. I was more concerned about the calipers than the rotors as they have one piece of plastic on them that I was worried might heat up and melt, so I would stop about halfway down any descent to check them. The rotors would be too hot to touch at times and the steel portion definitely got discolored from the heat but we had no issues with melting. In one 4 day period we descended close to 25,000 feet including the east side of Passo Fedaia which had ramps of 14% and 16% off the top and prolonged sections of 10-11% grade. Our second to last ride was the east side of Passo Stelvio which we descended with no issues. It's average gradient over 14.7 miles was 7.9% with 48 hairpin turns that require hard breaking before each. On that descent it was rare that I wasn't on the brakes. We wore out the original set of pads by the end of the trip and I replaced them before we did the Stelvio. On the first set of pads when the brakes would heat up we would get screeching from the rear disc and pads. After changing pads that went away. I'm left wondering why we didn't experience melting of our rotors while others have had the issue?

    After reading Mark's (akexpress) post above I'm wondering if those folks who are reporting the melting aluminum on the ICE rotors are using just a single disc on the rear of their tandems? I'd also be interested in knowing combined team and bike weight, make of caliper and type of pad used and what the brake setup is/was.

    Our weight: Team plus bike, water bottles, and gear probably pushing 345-350 lbs.
    Calipers: Shimano CX75 (mechanical)
    Pads: Shimano G01A resin pads
    Setup: Dual discs, 203mm XT ICE rotors front and rear.

    My only negative experience with the ICE rotors was that they seemd to warp a bit when they heated up on a long descent. They would make a pinging noise as they rubbed lightly against the pads. Once they cooled back down this would go away.

    Curt
    Last edited by Krenovian; 08-21-13 at 02:59 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenovian View Post
    I've been following the TRP Spyre thread and read with interest the reports of the melting ICE rotors as we've been running them on our tandem. We spent 5 weeks this summer riding in the Italian Alps and the Dolomites and did lots of long relatively steep descents without any problems. I was more concerned about the calipers than the rotors as they have one piece of plastic on them that I was worried might heat up and melt, so I would stop about halfway down any descent to check them. The rotors would be too hot to touch at times and the steel portion definitely got discolored from the heat but we had no issues with melting. In one 4 day period we descended close to 25,000 feet including the east side of Passo Fedaia which had ramps of 14% and 16% off the top and prolonged sections of 10-11% grade. Our second to last ride was the east side of Passo Stelvio which we descended with no issues. It's average gradient over 14.7 miles was 7.9% with 48 hairpin turns that require hard breaking before each. On that descent it was rare that I wasn't on the brakes. We wore out the original set of pads by the end of the trip and I replaced them before we did the Stelvio. On the first set of pads when the brakes would heat up we would get screeching from the rear disc and pads. After changing pads that went away. I'm left wondering why we didn't experience melting of our rotors while others have had the issue?

    After reading Mark's (akexpress) post above I'm wondering if those folks who are reporting the melting aluminum on the ICE rotors are using just a single disc on the rear of their tandems? I'd also be interested in knowing combined team and bike weight, make of caliper and type of pad used and what the brake setup is/was.

    Our weight: Team plus bike, water bottles, and gear probably pushing 345-350 lbs.
    Calipers: Shimano CX75 (mechanical)
    Pads: Shimano G01A resin pads
    Setup: Dual discs, 203mm XT ICE rotors front and rear.

    My only negative experience with the ICE rotors was that they seemd to warp a bit when they heated up on a long descent. They would make a pinging noise as they rubbed lightly against the pads. Once they cooled back down this would go away.

    Curt
    The difference is the dual disc setup that you utilize. We and all of our riding partners have only rear discs and front calipers (Dura ace on mine). We definitely favor the rear brake so as not to heat the front rim and the possiblity of a front tire failure at speed and descending. I(we) all do alternate front and rear but more time is on the rear brake. One other factor that I have started to consider as a cause of the melting is the use of semi=metallic pads (EBC gold) that may generate more heat for the increased pad life. As pads are relatively cheap it may be worth using a softer pad which may actually brake better with less heat but a significant increase in pad wear.

    weight 360 with bike etc
    caliper TRD Hy/rd
    pads EBC gold semi metallic
    setup Rear Disc/ front Dura Ace caliper w/cool stop pads Ultegra DI2 levers
    Bike Calfee tetra w/couplers

    Mark

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    Well, I'll report back on Monday if we survive D2R2

    Total team and bike weight would be about the same as yours, Curt. We are running the 203 mm ICE rotor on the front with the CX75 mechanical caliper. V brakes on the rear. Your report makes me feel a little bit better but I'll be watching for funny noises and checking the temperature periodically.

    I'm running the standard organic pads.
    Last edited by bikeinxs; 08-21-13 at 03:22 PM. Reason: additional info

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    Ah, well that probably explains the problem, dragging the rear rotor.

    We switched our front disc to ICE last Spring ('12) and rode in France. Used Avid G2 disc on the back. EBC Gold pads front and rear. Some of the descents were 10+ miles long and hitting 50+mph was not a problem. We don't drag, just slam on the brakes before the turns. Try as I might, I did not over heat the front disc or BB7 caliper.

    The ICE disc won me over and I purchase another for the rear.

    Not liking the Avid BB7 caliper and will probably try the Spyre shortly.

    Our team weight is roughly 310lbs. Add another 45lbs for bike, liquids, eats and more than normal clothing items.

  10. #10
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Man, I love the Shimano Ice Rotor. I guess its great until it melts. It's survived Montebello, but I guess this Saturday we will put it to the Page Mill test. Not Mt. Ventoux, but narrow, serpentine, and varbiable grade with many steep pitches.

    Page Mill Descent - Montebello to Altamont

    • Los Altos, CA
    • Distance............4.7mi
    • Avg Grade.......-5.7%
    • Lowest Elev.....689 ft
    • Highest Elev....2,108 ft
    • Elev Difference....1,419 ft



  11. #11
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    So - do we know if the Hope Vented Rotor works with the TRP Spyre mechanical? I'm thinking of switching to the TRP spyres and it would be good to know if they vented rotor works with them for potential future purchases.

    I've got new ICE rotors on the bike front and rear and have had no heating issues at all. I threshold brake so I don't drag my brakes at all on steep descents. I have not had an opportunity to do a lot of fast long descents yet though with the Ice Rotors. However - I'd opt for the vented ones when the ICE need replacing.
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    Like i stated before front and rear disc is like comparing apples to oranges vs rear disc/ front caliper. BTW this is not our first rodeo and we don't drag the rear disc. If I was the only one then i would feel like it was our technique. The two others are very experienced tandem teams with lots of mountain descents. We all have road and mountain tandem experience . As Ritterview stated the Ice rotor is great up until it fails, I thought we had the great setup until this. Of course your results will vary. Those of you running front discs are you running carbon forks and it so what brand? Slamming on a front disc brake at 50+ mph must put huge twisting loads on the one fork leg.

  13. #13
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
    So - do we know if the Hope Vented Rotor works with the TRP Spyre mechanical? I'm thinking of switching to the TRP spyres and it would be good to know if they vented rotor works with them for potential future purchases.
    Thinking? There is nothing to think about! Get a Spyre on there, and your Avid BB7 will soon be headed to the landfill.

    I'm wondering whether the Spyre's dual piston action might help spare the Shimano Ice from melting. In comparison to the Avid BB7, in which the outer piston rudely pins the rotor against the fixed inner pad, the dual-piston Spyre gently squeezes the rotor from both sides. This has got to be more even pressure/friction between the outer and inner rotor surfaces, and thus more even heat production on either side of the ICE's aluminum sandwich. It might be with the Avid that one side is spiking hot temperatures that become critical, whereas the same braking with the Spyre would spread the heat more evenly on both sides, and thus be less likely to reach critical.

  14. #14
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    Thinking? There is nothing to think about! Get a Spyre on there, and your Avid BB7 will soon be headed to the landfill.

    I'm wondering whether the Spyre's dual piston action might help spare the Shimano Ice from melting. In comparison to the Avid BB7, in which the outer piston rudely pins the rotor against the fixed inner pad, the dual-piston Spyre gently squeezes the rotor from both sides. This has got to be more even pressure/friction between the outer and inner rotor surfaces, and thus more even heat production on either side of the ICE's aluminum sandwich. It might be with the Avid that one side is spiking hot temperatures that become critical, whereas the same braking with the Spyre would spread the heat more evenly on both sides, and thus be less likely to reach critical.
    But consider the Avid fixed pad is more direct for thermal conductivity to dissipate heat. A dual action caliper dissipates through the mechanism.

    PK
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    IMHO they are not suitable for tandem use on big descents.
    So, IMOHO (in my OWN humble opinion...) we should be careful about making broad generalizations, since there are those of us who have had great results with the ICE rotor. As I reported in a couple of other threads, we descended Ventoux using a rear BB7/Ice/sintered pad combo AS A DRAG BRAKE along with front/rear calipers (DuraAce on DeepVs) and thought the setup was fantastic. Much superior to the BB7/Roundagon/organic pad combo that faded badly and heated dangerously (smoke) on Puy St. Mary some years prior. I really can't reconcile our two experiences with the ice. But, AK, you were potentially putting a LOT more heat into yours as the only brake (as you stated, you used in mostly, or something like that). We had 3 brakes controlling our speed. By your description, you were trying to do the same primarily with only one. Not sure it is fair to fault the disk. You might want to consider some sort of drag brake setup to compliment whatever you are using for normal braking. I'm thinking that maybe the data between us should be summarized: "Don't expect the Ice rotor to stand up to massive descents if used as your only or main brake." Or stated another way: "Hey, tandems have been using drag brakes to supplement their other brakes for a long time, and neither rim nor disk brakes obviates the value of adding in the drag brake, whatever technology that might be."

    Ooops: need to add these important data - 340-310 lb team (hey, we're losing... ask me about low carb) and ca. 45 lb bike yada yada.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2frmMI View Post
    So, IMOHO (in my OWN humble opinion...) we should be careful about making broad generalizations, since there are those of us who have had great results with the ICE rotor. As I reported in a couple of other threads, we descended Ventoux using a rear BB7/Ice/sintered pad combo AS A DRAG BRAKE along with front/rear calipers (DuraAce on DeepVs) and thought the setup was fantastic. Much superior to the BB7/Roundagon/organic pad combo that faded badly and heated dangerously (smoke) on Puy St. Mary some years prior. I really can't reconcile our two experiences with the ice. But, AK, you were potentially putting a LOT more heat into yours as the only brake (as you stated, you used in mostly, or something like that). We had 3 brakes controlling our speed. By your description, you were trying to do the same primarily with only one. Not sure it is fair to fault the disk. You might want to consider some sort of drag brake setup to compliment whatever you are using for normal braking. I'm thinking that maybe the data between us should be summarized: "Don't expect the Ice rotor to stand up to massive descents if used as your only or main brake." Or stated another way: "Hey, tandems have been using drag brakes to supplement their other brakes for a long time, and neither rim nor disk brakes obviates the value of adding in the drag brake, whatever technology that might be."

    Ooops: need to add these important data - 340-310 lb team (hey, we're losing... ask me about low carb) and ca. 45 lb bike yada yada.
    That is why i said it is MY opinion not a broad generalization but my and mine only opinion. As I said my experiment with the Ice is over. I probably should have said in my opinion if you only have a rear disc and front caliper the Ice MAY not be suitable for big descents on a tandem. I am quite sure that Shimano does not approve its use on tandems. In fact are there any tandem approved brakes other then Santana's endorsement of the Bengal caliper? Even at that Bengal does not list it as a tandem brake on there website. As this forum is all about opinions we can agree to disagree and have different opinions on what is suitable.

  17. #17
    PMK
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    Metallic brake discs and pads are so 20th century, we need to get with the times and possibly generate enough heat to remove paint and melt frames...

    http://www.carlislecbf.com/products/carbon/

    PK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    I'm wondering whether the Spyre's dual piston action might help spare the Shimano Ice from melting. In comparison to the Avid BB7, in which the outer piston rudely pins the rotor against the fixed inner pad, the dual-piston Spyre gently squeezes the rotor from both sides. This has got to be more even pressure/friction between the outer and inner rotor surfaces, and thus more even heat production on either side of the ICE's aluminum sandwich. It might be with the Avid that one side is spiking hot temperatures that become critical, whereas the same braking with the Spyre would spread the heat more evenly on both sides, and thus be less likely to reach critical.
    I can see where there might be advantages to a dual piston setup, but unless the carrier holding the disc is quite stiff the pad forces on each side of the disc must be approximately equal, and therefore the friction and heat would be the same. A simple proof would be pad wear. I just changed out the pads on the Ibis last week (Shimano CX75 caliper) and as far as I could see without using a vernier there was the same amount of material left on each pad.

    I really appreciate this thread - very timely (for me) and great discussion.

  19. #19
    Senior Member joe@vwvortex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    Thinking? There is nothing to think about! Get a Spyre on there, and your Avid BB7 will soon be headed to the landfill.

    I'm wondering whether the Spyre's dual piston action might help spare the Shimano Ice from melting. In comparison to the Avid BB7, in which the outer piston rudely pins the rotor against the fixed inner pad, the dual-piston Spyre gently squeezes the rotor from both sides. This has got to be more even pressure/friction between the outer and inner rotor surfaces, and thus more even heat production on either side of the ICE's aluminum sandwich. It might be with the Avid that one side is spiking hot temperatures that become critical, whereas the same braking with the Spyre would spread the heat more evenly on both sides, and thus be less likely to reach critical.
    So - do they fit the Hope vented rotor?
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  20. #20
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
    So - do they fit the Hope vented rotor?
    I don't know! I don't have access to a Hope Vented Rotor. Chi Chi is in charge of figuring this out!

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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    Those of you running front discs are you running carbon forks and it so what brand? Slamming on a front disc brake at 50+ mph must put huge twisting loads on the one fork leg.
    Wound Up Duo with Rolf Prima Tandem Disc wheel set. The fork definitely flexes and there are times I wish it were a bit stiffer but it works and is comfortable. Our other tandem (CoMo DE from way back when and still a proper race tandem) has the original Wound Up tandem fork that rides quite a bit stiffer.

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    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    More excellent reading. Thank's everyone.

  23. #23
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2frmMI View Post
    . As I reported in a couple of other threads, we descended Ventoux using a rear BB7/Ice/sintered pad combo AS A DRAG BRAKE along with front/rear calipers (DuraAce on DeepVs) and thought the setup was fantastic.
    Everything I have ever read or heard is that you shouldn't use a disc as a drag brake. I can see the merit of a rear disc as a supplement to the calipers, allowing heat dissapation options, but I don't think dragging it down Mt Ventoux sounds like a great idea.

    My bet is the reason it didn't melt was that the calipers provided enough braking to avoid overheating the disc, even given its unintended use.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Krenovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akexpress View Post
    Those of you running front discs are you running carbon forks and it so what brand? Slamming on a front disc brake at 50+ mph must put huge twisting loads on the one fork leg.
    No brand/name on my fork to be found. It literally came in a brown wrapper. I purchased it from Bike Island for a touring single build but transferred it to the tandem when I couldn't find a carbon fork with PM caliper mount capable of handling a 203mm rotor for 1 1/8" headset. It is designed for cyclocross and touring/commuting with an AC length of 395 mm and a 45 mm rake and threaded inserts to mount fenders or possibly a rack. Other features include dropouts that are angled forward and reinforcing ridges moulded into the lateral surfaces of the legs to stiffen them up. No issues braking hard on very steep roads, no noticeable twisting, no noticeable change in steering but then again we've never seen the upper side of 50 mph. Our comfort level is not much over 40 mph descending unless it is a long straight smooth section of road.

    Curt

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Everything I have ever read or heard ...
    Well, one conclusion is: don't believe everything you read or hear. :^)
    I heard the same thing, long after our tandem builder (Glenn Erickson, who has also led many, many tours with tandems all over the mountains of Europe) recommended this setup and long after we had used it successfully and repeatedly in just this use. So, AKexpress melts his using as the main brake, I don't using it as a drag brake. If those are considered data, then one can formulate a conclusion. Of course there are many other factors, but there you go.

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