tandemTourRace

We are weights 150 ( me ) + 110 ( wife ) + 30 ( Calfee ) + 15 ( misc load ) = 305 pounds total. We saw this on Continental, Vredenstein, and Vittoria, at widths 28, 25, and when we could get nothing else, 23mm widths. We run 120psi, ( plus or minus pressure gauge accuracy). We were on steep terrain and in the course of 2.5 weeks rode a bit short of 2000 kilometers. The Vredenstein Fortezza might have withstood it ( they got a glass cut, unfortunately ) but the damage was visible. I have also run Gatorskins on sweet 16's and seen similar but this is a different issue. It is inside the rim.

twocicle

That is a fairly extensive test bed of tire combos. Very suspicious rim issue indeed.

Not that a higher tire psi would cause the issue, but with tire sizes ranging between 23-28mm there is a vast difference in psi required. For example, I bet you could run most 28mm tires @ 110psi (+/- 4 psi) on those Rolf rims. For comparison, my wife & I are in the same team weight range, and run ~107-108psi with 25mm 4-Season on 23mm wide BHS/Kinlin rims, and any higher psi becomes too harsh. Of course, tire brand+model requirements vary.

Give Rolf product support a call?

merlinextraligh

Agree that tire pressure probably has nothing to do with it, but that sounds pretty high. FWIW, we outweigh you by 90lbs, and run 110psi in 25mm tires with no pinch flats.

twocicle

I see an old set of Rolfs for sale on eBay. The cobwebs in the rear hub photo... priceless.

Rolf Prima Vigor Tandem Wheels 700c Set Front Rear Rim Brake | eBay

joe@vwvortex

How do you like your new wheelset? I'm contemplating some new wheels - and looking at HED's 23mm offering with White Industries hubs - but had never heard of the Kinlin's before.

twocicle

I posted about these in a couple other threads.

I think these rims are great for tandem usage. 23mm wide X 28mm tall, and approx. 495gm. $60/ea.
BHS C472w Clincher Rim - 23mm wide - 28mm deep!!!

They do have a pinned seam, which while can be stronger than a welded rim (heat weakens), does give a "tick" when using rim brakes. If using disc brakes, then you wouldn't notice anything with the seam.

Originally posted in this thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...ld-2014-a.html

and more recently:
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...e-ind-hub.html

I had my LBS build these up using DT Aerolite spokes cross-2 on the rim brake front, and DT Aero Comp spokes cross-3 on the disc rear. The Aerolites saved maybe 48gm on the front wheel, but cost is much higher. The Aero Comps look virtually identical, have a slightly beefier spec, and are more economical. 32 spokes, silver brass nipples. Build weight for the original set with the 145mm WI Mi6 rear hub was ~1850gm. The new 135mm CLD hub is ~100 lighter, so guessing ~1750gm for the weight. Add some lightweight Zipp rim strips + skewers and you're all set to go.

There are at least a few others here that have built up these rims... Colotandem (see pic) and Carbonfiberboy. Have yet to hear any negative reports here or any other forum.

joe@vwvortex

Thanks - it would be a dual disc setup so no worries on the braking surface. I did see your other threads - but wanted to get your impression on them. Price is definitely right.

twocicle

USPSPRO can share his experience with HED Ardene rims. I seem to recall he crushed one on the tandem, or maybe it was a tire blow out that did it.

The Kinlin/BHS seem to have a grippy bead lip and no issues yet with either Conti or Schwalbe tires. LOVE the fatter tire profile from the 23mm rims.

Carbonfiberboy 

Oh man oh man oh man, that is just terrifying. We are loving our Kinlin 279/BHS c472w rim. Only one so far as we are replacing our Deep-V rims with these as they wear. We used Sapim CX-Ray spokes, 36H rims because our CK hubs are 36 and we sure aren't changing those out. We use rim brakes and I think the aluminum may be wearing a bit better on the Kinlin rim, too. Tires go on and off by hand.

As long as I mentioned rim brakes, we recently switched to Swisstop GHP2 V-Brake pads, the green ones. The blue pads aren't available for V-brakes. We're liking them very much. Silent, smooth application, good in wet. We were using Koolstop combo pads. The Swisstop are better.

For tandems, I sure am a fan of speccing and building your own wheels.

Eddie50

I agree, had a set of wheels built too for my tandem after reading so many stories like that on boutique tandem wheels.
Went with Deep V, White Ind disc hubs, 32h, since its a double disc setup, the rims are non machined, smooth, clean, looks good and bulletproof.

robmitchell

Hi,

Wow, this report on the new Rolf tandem wheel rims being too sharp and cutting tires is a concern.
Is there any response from Rolf on this issue? We have used the new wheels for about 10-12 rides with no issues so far, but we have only ridden the flats and our longest ride has been 63 miles. We are about 320 lbs and have been using the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX 700x28 at 115 psi. The ride was much smoother than the old style Rolfs, I thought about going back to 25c width.

If anyone hears anything else let me us know for our own safety.

Rob

twocicle

The "problem" I have with Deep Vs is the skinny width. It's an old design and not keeping up with modern thinking. Wishing Velocity had more options in the 23mmW x +28mmH range.

Ritterview

Not that Rolf should be selling rims with thin, sharp tire-cutting hook beads, but if the wheels for whatever reason cannot be returned, and you don't want to toss them, as an expedient, wouldn't the application of rim tape up over the bead obviate this problem? Thin, strong rim tape like this.



Posting a photo of this hooked bead would be helpful, but not everyone is technically proficient. Do you know anything about cameras, tandemTourRace?

twocicle

^^^ rim tape isn't meant for application on the bead hook, plus it would be near impossible to mount the tire without snagging the tape and make a mess of it.

Ritterview

Shows you what I know.

Here's a blog post at Red Kite Prayer that describes visits in Eugene to both Co-Motion and Rolf.

I don't see one, but I'll bet Rolf has a telephone there somewhere!

seely

Might I suggest the Aileron? It's 25x28 and pretty bomb proof, and a ~460g, actually lighter than the Deep V.

twocicle

Ah great. Guess I didn't keep up with their list. Glad to hear they came out with a rim in this type of profile. It may be a bit wider than I would want (we mostly run 25mm tires and only run 28mm on trips with paths, cobbles, etc), but still a nice light weight. I think the 25mm rim width would better suit a +28mm tire.

Rims only link: https://store.velocityusa.com/p/ailer..._aileron?pp=12

seely

It's actually optimized to work with 23-28c tires, as the internal width is around 20mm. It is disc only, which may or may not be a dealbreaker for some riders. I believe this is a 23c mounted up in this picture:

joe@vwvortex

Why would that be better than say a HED Belgium C2 Disc? Roughly the same price. The Kinlin is similar in spec - but not disc specific and half the price - but you pay the penalty in extra weight.

chriskmurray

I can second how well the Aileron works with 23mm wide tires. A co-worker built up a set for his road bike with 23's and they work fantastic.

Bad1

In my opinion Hed Beligum C2 are one of the best rims made period, perfectly round, strong & fast were a 285# team that use these regularly! fast drops of 40mph + like your on rails! did I say strong had 1 aero comp spoke break non drive side removed it coming back in on a loop 20 miles from home rode it at speed with the wheel only going out not even enough to open rear brake. Here's a good article on C2s: HED Belgium C2 Clincher Rim review | Drummond Custom Cycles

agriskman

1000 miles on our2014 co-motion carrera with rolf tandem wheels and all I can say is that they have been 100 percent trouble free. Running 28mm gatorskins and the ride is high quality. Of course, this is our first tandem so maybe what do I know? But I am enjoying the ride much more than I anticipated and the wheels are contributing positively to my enjoyment. (My stokers attitude is probably the biggest contributor but having a nice set of wheels helps also!) I notice when I go out on my single that the ride is much less enjoyable. Love the wider tires. Running them at 95 to 100 psi. Great ride. Don't know if up I can go wider but will if I can.

seely

Not necessarily saying it's better or worse. I haven't built up any C2's yet, but have built a few dozen Ailerons. I'm really, really impressed with how easily they build. I will say that I would say we took the aerodynamic tuning of the rim quite seriously. Instead of using a traditional "A" shaped section, the widest point of the rim is not actually at the bead, similar to the design of an airplane wing:



It's specifically designed to have an aerodynamic advantage with 23 to 28c tires, and is incredibly stiff. Having not tested the competition, I can't really make an accurate comparison, but I would be willing to bet that in terms of weight, build quality, aero advantage and vertical/lateral stiffness, it stacks up favorably against if not superior to the competition.

twocicle

A taller profile provides more strength and the stiffness is more noticeable on tandem wheels as they hold their shape better during rotation where the contact patch meets the road. The duty cycle (1 revolution) on a tandem puts a lot of pressure onto the rim, and if that rim flexes too much it stresses the spokes excessively... meaning failure. Bad1's spoke failure with C2 rims is something I would expect, even on a set of fairly new tandem wheels when combined with a rim that flexes vertically a bit too much under tandem loads.

Regarding weight of the Kinlin/BHS (495gm), this is rim material. Rim design/engineering is one thing, but there is a point where removing too much material creates a flimsier structure. This is why Jason @ Fairwheel recommended not to use the Pacenti SL23, spoke bed too thin, rim too thin for tandem duty cycle. I bought a couple spare BHS rims "just in case", but the joke here is that I might not ever get to use them unless I build up another set of wheels... we'll see.

The Velocity Aileron shape looks interesting. As much as I like lightweight stuff, 460gm alloy tandem rims make me nervous. My comfort level is ~500gm.

As far as Rolf bashing... yeah, I wouldn't use those on our tandem, but having great success with the Vigor Alpha on my single as they are stiff and have a great rim profile (stable in crosswinds) plus I get them discounted from our team. Criterium corning with the Vigor A has been awesome.

joe@vwvortex

Thanks - I looked into them further and price wise they are actually around the mid point between the HED's and the Kinlins. The more I look at them and read about them - they have definitely found a place on my list.