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  1. #1
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Wheel build: Kinlin 279 (BHS C472w) rims w/DT Swiss Aero spokes

    Thread title TYPO. Title should read Kinlin 279 (BHS C472w)
    ------------------


    One of my winter projects was to build up some wider/semi-aero wheels. To be more correct, my LBS - Two Wheeler Dealer sourced the spokes and built up the wheels. I simply did all the research, ordered the hubs from Wheelbuilder.com, and wrote the checks.

    Rims:
    For this wheeset I decided to go with the BHS C472w. These rims are from BikeHubStore who source the rims directly from the Kinlin factory. 32 hole, 23mm wide, 28mm tall, ~490gm. Brandon (BHS) is great to work with... responsive to questions and offer suggestions, plus quick shipping. I recommend BHS.

    A few teams ("Colotandem" for one) already have these built up and run them for a year. Feedback from those people and many single bikers lent some credence to these rims. I also pinged a few well known builders (Fairwheels, Wheelbuilder, Prowheelbuilder) who reported these Kilins as being a very strong rim.
    C472w-4T.jpg
    Hubs:
    White Industries 32h MI6 (disc) rear w/Ti freehub body 145mm spacing. MI5 front non-disc.

    Spokes:
    Rear: DT Swiss Aero Comp, 282mm
    Front: DT Swiss Aerolite, 280mm

    To compare with Sapim spokes, think of the Aero Comp as a flattened Sapim Race (round, double-butted), and the Aerolite as the CX-Ray. To mitigate the risk of me ordering the wrong length spokes, the LBS handled this end. Cost a little more, but I consider it an insurance premium.

    I chose the DT aero spokes because of the thickness selections, plus I like the elbow lengths and round-to-aero transitions. The Aero Comps are actually a fairly good deal @ ~$40/box of 20. We could have used those for the front wheel too, but I wanted to optimize it with lighter & skinnier CX-Ray equivalents.

    Lacing:
    Cross-3 rear (disc or rim brake), cross-2 front (rim brake only). After spending some time researching lacing patterns and "guru" feedback, elected to do the front in a somewhat less used cross-2 pattern for a number of reasons. The tangents are close to what a cross-3 would be, slightly shorter/stiffer spokes, side bracing angles are actually improved when you use a shorter spoke run, ride compliance but not flexy, and so on. Didn't want to risk going with radial, just too many issues there (spoke & hub stress, rougher ride, etc).


    Nipples:
    12mm brass. I was hoping to get the DT Prolock (come with locktite) but nobody in N. America had the silver version in stock. Resorted to having the LBS use threadlock instead. Turned to be out much cheaper option too.

    Rim strip / plugs:
    Veloplugs yellow. Somewhat of a pain to install and require special attention/technique when mounting the first tire bead, but otherwise lighter than most tapes. By the time I got to mounting the 2nd tire, it occurred to me to ensure the 1st bead was sitting entirely between the veloplugs and the rim sidewall. By doing so, the tire mounted completely by hand without resorting to levers (I shamefully admit to using one lever for the first bead on the first tire. lol).

    Wheelset weight:
    Taking the standard weighing config (without tires, skewers, tape/plugs, disc rotor, etc), I weighed them at: 1078gm rear, 788gm front = 1864gm for wheelset. My LBS weighed them at 1850gm, but I trust my scale more than theirs. I think going any lighter (spokes, nipples, count, etc) would have compromised an otherwise solid setup.

    Tires:
    Mounted up some lightly used 25mm Continental 4-Season tires with Michelin AirComp 700c x 23c tubes. Once the roads clear of wet & icy stuff, we typically have a lot of chip rock remaining until May or so. Saving the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires for use on cleaner roads. The 25mm 4-Seasons mounted on these 23mm rims and pumped to 100psi feel surprisingly firm. Measured max width: 26.7mm.

    P1030643 (Large).JPGP1030650 (Large).jpgP1030648 (Large).jpgP1030646 (Large).JPGP1030651 (Large).JPG
    P1030654 (Large).JPGP1030655 (Large).JPGP1030656 (Large).JPG

    I'm looking forward to test riding these wheels. They seem sturdy, mid-aero, and with the wider tire profile running at a lower PSI I'm hoping will prove comfortable and corner like fiends. Should be an interesting comparison to the 200gm lighter Spinergy Tx2 wheels we have been riding for the last couple years.
    Last edited by twocicle; 01-16-14 at 04:25 PM. Reason: tidied up some thoughts

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    One of my winter projects was to build up some wider/semi-aero wheels. To be more correct, my LBS - Two Wheeler Dealer sourced the spokes and built up the wheels. I simply did all the research, ordered the hubs from Wheelbuilder.com, and wrote the checks.

    Rims:
    For this wheeset I decided to go with the Kinlin 276. These rims are actually from BikeHubStore (BHS C472w) who source the rims directly from the Kinlin factory. 32 hole, 23mm wide, 28mm tall, ~490gm. Brandon (BHS) is great to work with... responsive to questions and offer suggestions, plus quick shipping. I recommend BHS.

    A few teams ("Colotandem" for one) already have these built up and run them for a year. Feedback from those people and many single bikers lent some credence to these rims. I also pinged a few well known builders (Fairwheels, Wheelbuilder, Prowheelbuilder) who reported these Kilins as being a very strong rim.
    C472w-4T.jpg
    Hubs:
    White Industries 32h MI6 (disc) rear w/Ti freehub body 145mm spacing. MI5 front

    Spokes:
    DT Swiss Aero Comp - rear, Aerolite - front. For Sapim comparisons, think of the Aero Comp as a flattened Sapim Race, and the Aerolite as the CX-Ray.

    I chose the DT aero spokes because they were available in thicknesses I wanted, plus I like the elbow lengths and transitions. For example, the Sapim CX-Ray has a long elbow that depending on the hub flange thickness can result in breakage if washers are not used. The Aero Comps are actually a fairly good deal @ ~$40/box of 20. We could have used those for the front wheel too, but I wanted CX-Ray equivalents there.

    282mm spokes for rear, 280mm for front. To mitigate the risk of me ordering the wrong length spokes, the LBS handled this end. Cost a little more, but I consider it an insurance premium.

    Lacing:
    Cross-3 rear (disc or rim brake), cross-2 front (rim brake only).

    Nipples:
    12mm brass. I was hoping to get the DT Prolock (come with locktite) but nobody in N. America had the silver version in stock. Resorted to having the LBS use threadlock instead. Turned to be out much cheaper option too.

    Rim strip / plugs:
    Veloplugs yellow. Somewhat of a pain to install and require special attention/technique when mounting the first tire bead, but otherwise lighter than most tapes. By the time I got to mounting the 2nd tire, it occurred to me to ensure the 1st bead was sitting entirely between the veloplugs and the rim sidewall. By doing so, the tire mounted completely by hand without resorting to levers (I shamefully admit to using one lever for the first bead on the first tire. lol).

    Wheelset weight:
    Taking the standard weighing config (without tires, skewers, tape/plugs, disc rotor, etc), I weighed them at: 1078gm rear, 788gm front = 1864gm for wheelset. My LBS weighed them at 1850gm, but I trust my scale more than theirs.

    Tires:
    Mounted up some lightly used 25mm Continental 4-Season tires with Michelin AirComp 700c x 23c tubes. Once the roads clear of wet & icy stuff, we typically have a lot of chip rock remaining until May or so. Saving the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires for use on cleaner roads. The 25mm 4-Seasons mounted on these 23mm rims and pumped to 100psi feel surprisingly firm. Measured max width: 26.7mm.

    P1030643 (Large).JPGP1030650 (Large).jpgP1030648 (Large).jpgP1030646 (Large).JPGP1030651 (Large).JPG
    P1030654 (Large).JPGP1030655 (Large).JPGP1030656 (Large).JPG

    I'm looking forward to test riding these wheels. They seem sturdy, mid-aero, and with the wider tire profile running at a lower PSI I'm hoping will prove comfortable and corner like fiends. Should be an interesting comparison to the 200gm lighter Spinergy Tx2 wheels we have been riding for the last couple years.
    Similar build with W.I. M15, Hed's 23mm wide, Belgium C2 platform, 28 up front & 32 rear, & DT Aero Lites, coming off Spinergys myself difference is in my case like comparing day to night, noticeably more power transmitted, especially out of the saddle, and faster all the way around without Spinergy's big bulbous spokes, aero lites make a difference. Try 90 psi up front & 93 psi rear more volume = less psi. Enjoy!
    Last edited by Bad1; 01-10-14 at 08:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Thanks for the psi feedback!

    With our previous wheels and 25mm tires, those were always pumped to 115-118psi (team weight ~270lbs and no loaded touring). This last fall touring Bavaria we had 28mm tires inflated to a comfortable 110psi, mainly because of the many bike paths and cobbles. Our 25mm tires have always burned through to the threads on a narrow center strip. I'm also hoping the larger tire contact patch achieved with these wider rims will improve that wear pattern. Pumping the 25mm tires to 100psi on the new rimss may be a bit too firm, we'll see once we get riding them. Interestingly, when we had the 28mm 4-Seasons mounted on the Spinergy wheels (18.5mm wide rim), the tire profile didn't look much wider than the 25mm on that same rim. However, mounting the 25mm on the 23mm wide rims makes the tires look quite fat at 26.7mm. Unfortunately I can't go back and measure the tire profiles on the Spinergys as I sold them to help pay for this new wheel project (WAF).

    I used the slightly thicker DT Aero Comp spokes on the rear to give it a bit more strength for drive and disc braking (when installed). Even though these rims are stronger (albeit a tad heavier) than the HED Belgiums, I went with 32 AeroLites on the front for safety factor and better tracking when driving hard into higher speed corners. Cornering performance is one of the critical factors I look for, as it allows us to maintain more speed and not brake so much. The AeroLites were approx $1/ea more than the AeroComps, and approx 48gm less per wheel. However, once I got both wheels built up, I was surprised how similar both spoke types looked with the same 2.3mm aero (flat) profile. Maybe 28 AeroComps on the front would have worked ok, but decided to go with 32 spokes all round.

    Not sure yet how our current stash (Conti 4-Season and Schwalbe Ultremo ZX) of 25mm tire sidewalls will hold up on the wide rims. The Conti tread rubber doesn't wrap very far around the sidewalls, and the Ultremo ZX sidewalls are a bit thin. Likely the new Schwalbe One would be the best choice, but we'll start out with what we have in stock and see how it goes.
    Last edited by twocicle; 01-12-14 at 04:41 PM.

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    Having trouble finding reference to Kinlin 276. Is this different from the 279?

  5. #5
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Sorry, typo. Editing the thread title does not show the update there. Updated the first thread.

    yes, the correct Kinlin model number is 279 (http://fairwheelbikes.com/kinlin-xc2...im-p-5431.html)

    BikeHubStore has a better selection of their version, the BHS C472w, and that includes 32 & 36 hole rims which are harder to get in the Kinlin brand. http://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/162.htm
    Last edited by twocicle; 01-13-14 at 11:09 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member colotandem's Avatar
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    Looks like you've got yourself a nice wheel set! I think you'll be happy with that setup!

  7. #7
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post

    I'm looking forward to test riding these wheels. They seem sturdy, mid-aero, and with the wider tire profile running at a lower PSI I'm hoping will prove comfortable and corner like fiends. Should be an interesting comparison to the 200gm lighter Spinergy Tx2 wheels we have been riding for the last couple years.
    Looks like a good performance set of tandem wheels that will last you many miles.

    If my understanding that your rear hub has a steel axle and Ti freehub is correct then that makes up most of the 200gm increase in weight over the Spinergy Tx2 wheels which have aluminum axles and freehubs. The Steel axel will probably be much stiffer and the Ti freehub will definitely be more durable.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 01-13-14 at 10:00 AM.

  8. #8
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    Looks like a good performance set of tandem wheels that will last you many miles.

    If my understanding that your rear hub has a steel axle and Ti freehub is correct then that makes up most of the 200gm increase in weight over the Spinergy Tx2 wheels which have aluminum axles and freehubs. The Steel axel will probably be much stiffer and the Ti freehub will definitely be more durable.

    Yup. The hubs have 15mm cromo axles front & rear, plus easy to maintain cartridge bearing of standard sizes. Hoping these are stiffer and will add to the cornering performance.

    My scale readings:

    WI Mi5 32h front = 124gm
    WI Mi6 32h rear disc w/Ti freehub body, 145mm = 360gm

    Spinning the built up rear wheel prior to mounting a tire, it freewheeled for a very, very long time. Slick

    ---

    FYI, White Industries is coming out with some Centerlock hubs for singles, but when I called them to inquire, they said they will never be making any Centerlocks for tandem. Same for Through-Axles. I tried to persuade them, indicating I would be the first in line and promote it, but no bites
    Last edited by twocicle; 01-13-14 at 10:59 AM.

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    You must have a brave stoker if she doesn't mind you cornering so hard that axle flex is an issue!

  10. #10
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Axle flex, tire scrub, etc... as long as we don't need to use our brakes!!! LOL.

    It's another reason why we use stoker drop bars most of the time... lower and stable. She can't get that with cowhorns.
    Last edited by twocicle; 01-13-14 at 02:16 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
    You must have a brave stoker if she doesn't mind you cornering so hard that axle flex is an issue!
    I will say my stoker is pretty brave compared to some. With our limited power we try to avoid any loss of momentum. Large volume tires with less pressure help maintain our speed around washboard corners, over cattle guards and railroad tracks. Really good fun and worth a little weight in a wheels, skewers and tires. Besides when it comes to sprinting out of a corners to catch back on we are pretty much toast.

    It helps that we have been successful staying safe for seven years. Sometimes we go full speed over railroad tracks and stay off the brakes more than others but sometimes we are slowing more than she expects in a wet corner or I tell her to let a group go because I feel uncomfortable with someone's riding. I try to remember that we are not actually racing and don't have to risk our skin and bones.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 01-13-14 at 02:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    I will say my stoker is pretty brave compared to some. With our limited power we try to avoid any loss of momentum. Large volume tires with less pressure help maintain our speed around washboard corners, over cattle guards and railroad tracks. Really good fun and worth a little weight in a wheels, skewers and tires. Besides when it comes to sprinting out of a corners to catch back on we are pretty much toast.

    It helps that we have been successful staying safe for seven years. Sometimes we go full speed over railroad tracks and stay off the brakes more than others but sometimes we are slowing more than she expects in a wet corner or I tell her to let a group go because I feel uncomfortable with someone's riding. I try to remember that we are not actually racing and don't have to risk our skin and bones.
    Takes a clear mind not to get caught up in the"moment"

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    Nice wheels. Not too long ago we wore out our Velocity Fusion rims and I opted to replace them with the same.
    I recently rebuilt my single wheels using Pacenti SL23 rims.
    Knowing what I know now, I would have gone with the wider rims on the tandem.

  14. #14
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnbrown View Post
    Nice wheels. Not too long ago we wore out our Velocity Fusion rims and I opted to replace them with the same.
    I recently rebuilt my single wheels using Pacenti SL23 rims.
    Knowing what I know now, I would have gone with the wider rims on the tandem.
    The Pacenti SL23 rims are a great option for singles, but Jason @ Fairwheels cautioned against those for tandems citing rim strength. The Pacenti's are designed well for their intended use, but are a bit too thin to withstand tandem mass & abuse.

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    You look at the Hed Belgium+ rim?

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    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Yes. The HED is preferable over the Pacenti for tandem use.

    HED...
    Upsides: a little lighter weight, welded seam may be smoother braking.
    Downsides: 2x cost, availability problems, could be stronger especially for tandem abuse, not as aero (profile height).

    FWIW, I'm not sure about the HED rim lip. I did find the BHS rim lip has a wicked grip factor. It think that is due to the tubeless compatibility spec. Maybe HED has that too, but I've read some feedback about ppl with HEDs having blowoff issues.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Turbotandem's Avatar
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    I'm a fan of the kinlin 279 / BHC 472w rim. The aero profile is very akin to the zipp 101 rim. I like the wider rim profile of the kinlin 279 over the XR 300 or 380. In 2013 I had a 32h set built up for a rear disc wheel to swap in for foul weather riding (in lieu of my normal rim brake wheel). The DT hub I felt had too small a hub diameter, so I am on a shimano 6 bolt disc hub, 135mm. CX Ray spokes. For disc braking 32 spoke is appropriate. 3x lacing for 32 spoke disc braking also appropriate. For rim braking serving a moderate weight team one could argue 20 to 24 spoke if the hub flange is large enough and the rims strong enough. I don't believe the welding of the rim seam is important as the tension from the lacing drives the seem together with great force. With a strong plug/shim/filler within the rim at that seam there is plenty of force holding the seam tight.
    Andy
    Boulder Colorado

  18. #18
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    While welded seams can yield smoother braking surfaces (rim brake), pinned seams (as with the Kinlin/BHS rim) can be stronger. One of the reasons for this is that welding can weaken the rim due to the heating cycle(s). This is another reason why I chose this rim.

    I was sweating over gram count the whole time, but tried not to sacrifice wheel strength in the process. I wasn't comfortable using CX-Ray/Aerolite gauge caliber spokes for the rear w/disc brake torque in the mix. Ultimately hitting the Zipp 101 profile while keeping a sane spoke count and dealing with our 145mm spacing... it all seems to have come together fairly well in the end.

    The final tally was somewhere around $870 including a few extra spokes "just in case". I could have got the 2014 Rolf Tandem alloy wheels for that price and weight, but likely the cost could have been higher in the long run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    The Pacenti SL23 rims are a great option for singles, but Jason @ Fairwheels cautioned against those for tandems citing rim strength. The Pacenti's are designed well for their intended use, but are a bit too thin to withstand tandem mass & abuse.
    They have worked well on my single bike. I would be tempted to use them on the tandem being that we are fairly light weight but I think you right it might not be strong enough.

  20. #20
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    When I wore out my front Deep-V rim, I was inspired by this thread to build the wheel up with the Kinlin 279/BHC 472w rim. My front hub is a CK 36H which I love, and fortunately the 279 comes in 36H, so I used the CK and silver CX-Ray spokes. The spokes were a little more money, but they should see me through many rims. I used silver brass Sapim nipples and built the wheel myself. Spoke tension is ~100kgf. The build went very well. I like the feel of the new wheel and we sure did seem to be a little faster on it on our first outing. Funny how that is.

    I'm running 25mm Pro4 Endurance on it. Those tires look silly to me now on the rear Deep-V. I did buy 2 rims to save on shipping. Brandon at BHS said 115-120kgf DS is plenty. Probably don't need that much on a 145 rear hub. I'll probably use 110-115, but shouldn't have to build a new rear until next year.

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    Twocicle,

    Could you give us your opinion of the Kinlin's now that you've had a chance to put some miles on them? Have you had any problems? Anything you would change on the build if you could do it over again?

    Thanks for any input you may give,

    Jack

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    This is a question for Bad1, what rear wheel spacing is your tandem? It sounds like you have a White Industries (W.I.) M15 rear hub, what rear axle spacing is this hub, 135, 145, 130 or something else?
    On White Industries website, it seems to indicate that the M15 rear hub is O.L.D. 135 (meaning 135 spacing).

    Thank You.

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    W.I. has the M15 also in a 145 spacing, just have your LBS requests what spacing you need.

  24. #24
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad1 View Post
    W.I. has the M15 also in a 145 spacing, just have your LBS requests what spacing you need.
    The Mi5 145mm spacing is not a true 145mm hub, it is the standard 135mm flange spacing with a set of longer ends. Also as you may have noticed, the Mi5 is not a disc hub.

  25. #25
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bornco View Post
    Twocicle,

    Could you give us your opinion of the Kinlin's now that you've had a chance to put some miles on them? Have you had any problems? Anything you would change on the build if you could do it over again?

    Thanks for any input you may give,

    Jack
    These have been perfect. Stay true, no flat spots, etc. We are a lightweight team and so do not crush wheels even though we frequent do bunny hop the road tandem.

    I did post that the pinned seam can be noticed with rim brakes, but with disc brakes there is nothing to notice.

    We had our Calfee respaced to 135mm and so rebuilt the rear wheel moving from a Mi6 145mm 10spd hub to a CX-11 135mm disc 11spd hub. Still 32 spokes of course.

    The rear CX-11 wheel at cross-3 (DT Aero Comp spokes) is laterally stiffer than either of my single bike race wheels (Dura Ace 9000 C24 and Rolf Vigor Alpha). The front wheel remains the original build with cross-2 DT Aero Lite 32 spokes. Also no problems at all, handle great, dead quiet, etc.

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