Bike Forums

Bike Forums (http://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Tandem Cycling (http://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cycling/)
-   -   Schwalbe One update (tube and tubeless) (http://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cycling/936163-schwalbe-one-update-tube-tubeless.html)

waynesulak 03-03-14 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16545065)
^ it's not like we've never had a pinch flat, but it's pretty rare. (last one I remember was hitting a major pothole while motor pacing behind a truck, not my brightest moment)

Some people just seem to ride "heavier" than others. We rode with a couple in Hawaii that couldn't have weighed more than 240lbs combined, and they pinched flatted 3 times in one ride.


In spite of being big, I tend to be light on wheels, avoiding crap, standing with loose knees and elbows when you do have to hit something.

Now if I could just convince my stoker to bunny hop the tandem.

I agree about some people riding lighter than others. We avoid a lot but hit some too. Latest item was at night heading home after our ride on an unlit multi-use trail rounding a corner at 13-15 mph when an opossum decided to cross the road. By the time it appeared in my headlight beam just in front of my wheel I had little time but called out to my stoker and adjusted the line to 90 degrees to the direction of the animal. We were both standing on bent knees when there was a big thud and the front end jumped then another thud and the rear end lifted. Of course our momentum carried us right over. Tires and wheels were fine while the opossum lay motionless on the road. It never turned its head and I never saw his eyes reflect the light. Sometimes I like having big tires and strong wheels.

Carbonfiberboy 03-03-14 05:30 PM

We don't do 30 on the flat very often, but we can pull at 24 when we're in good shape. That's down on our aero bars. We can use every watt we can get. Our oversized PRO4 tires don't look so stupid on 23mm rims. I think just replacing the front with a Kinlin and CxRays made a little difference on the flat. The bike seem to run just a little free-er. I'll do the rear when I wear that rim out, not too long if it keeps raining.

UnfilteredDregs 03-07-14 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 16542033)
On group rides, so far my impression of tubeless is negative. Of course we only get to see the sealant failures. But what a mess to fix! Doesn't seem to take much of a hole for the sealant not to work. I just look on in horror. I can see it for MTB.

What sealant?

UnfilteredDregs 03-07-14 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Fab (Post 16541687)
tubeless tires blow off the rim much easier than using a tube if you over pressurize. and roll off the rim easily at low pressures. i would not risk running ultra low pressures on road tubless ever. the cost of rolling a bead on a high speed corner is to great.

If the rim is tubeless ready, as well as the tire, and the bead is properly locked into place, it should be extremely difficult to blow the tire off the rim. Then again over pressurizing a tubeless tire/wheel doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Lower pressures is one of the distinct advantages.

Regarding bead roll off...your experience is with off road? The folks at HED tell me that it's perfectly fine to run at moderate versus high pressures on their rims due to the design of the bead shelf. I'm running 70psi-f/85psi-r on 28mm tires that spec to 110 psi.

Carbonfiberboy 03-07-14 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs (Post 16558542)
What sealant?

Couldn't tell ya.

twocicle 03-07-14 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs (Post 16558560)
Rain, oh rain, come wash thee snow away!
The impetuous glee of velocipede rapidity beckons!
Wanton quary petrification of travailed pedestrians calls the sporting marauder...
Melt! Dammit, melt!
Enough skittering about!
Abandon, and banish, such cross ice that I may come speedily about
ne'er to break thine arse indubitably thrice on the causeway! - U.D.

Man, if I had a nickel for every time I heard or read that, I'd have... a nickel :)
Said as sun blocked by incessant dark cloud looming over wigwam.

Team Fab 03-07-14 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs (Post 16558560)
If the rim is tubeless ready, as well as the tire, and the bead is properly locked into place, it should be extremely difficult to blow the tire off the rim. Then again over pressurizing a tubeless tire/wheel doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Lower pressures is one of the distinct advantages.

Regarding bead roll off...your experience is with off road? The folks at HED tell me that it's perfectly fine to run at moderate versus high pressures on their rims due to the design of the bead shelf. I'm running 70psi-f/85psi-r on 28mm tires that spec to 110 psi.

experience has been with off road (xc all mountain and downhill) and cross.

i have a few times over inflated by 5 psi and had tire blow off. once in the middle of the night sounded like a gun shot.

waynesulak 03-08-14 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Fab (Post 16558930)
experience has been with off road (xc all mountain and downhill) and cross.

i have a few times over inflated by 5 psi and had tire blow off. once in the middle of the night sounded like a gun shot.

Not much margin for error. Good thing no tandems riders over inflate tires. :D

UnfilteredDregs 03-08-14 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Fab (Post 16558930)
experience has been with off road (xc all mountain and downhill) and cross.

i have a few times over inflated by 5 psi and had tire blow off. once in the middle of the night sounded like a gun shot.


What rim/wheel combo?

Team Fab 03-08-14 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs (Post 16560059)
What rim/wheel combo?

Mavic and Shimano UST Rims(variety)
Maxxis UST Tires(variety) plus a few other brands

Note for tires to get UST designation tires must go on by hand and inflate without compressor, and hold air without Sealant.

I found that inflating to max helped seal tire to rim, and as a habit I would try to inflate nite before if I changed tires for conditions.

Also, note that due to roll offs in cross I switched to tubulars.

DubT 03-08-14 03:18 PM

FWIW, the 700 X 23 Schwalbe tubeless tires show a pressure range of 70-120psi on the sidewall. I am happy with 90/95. I have ridden the wheel hard on my single and it feels great, corners extremely well. I have also ridden it hard on the tandem with absolutely no issues. So far so good!

Team Fab 03-08-14 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubT (Post 16560573)
FWIW, the 700 X 23 Schwalbe tubeless tires show a pressure range of 70-120psi on the sidewall. I am happy with 90/95. I have ridden the wheel hard on my single and it feels great, corners extremely well. I have also ridden it hard on the tandem with absolutely no issues. So far so good!

team weight please

DubT 03-08-14 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Fab (Post 16561187)
team weight please

Approx. 290.

DubT 03-22-14 08:31 AM

We now have over 300 miles on the Schwalbe One tires and give them 2 thumbs up. As soon as the tubeless 25's are available here in the US, I will upgrade the rear wheel on the tandem to tubeless and move the tandem wheel to my single. I have converted the front wheel of both of my bikes to tubeless and will eventually update both rear wheels. I do however have some tires to wear out first.

Ritterview 03-22-14 06:25 PM

We have just a few rides on our 28 mm Schwalbe One's, but both captain and stoker agree that they have a nice feel. I don't know if we could pass a blind test to differentiate between the Schwalbe One and Ultremo. They do provide a robust, confident feeling.

The whole point of Schwalbes is their availability in 28 mm, whereas the Continental GP4000s is not (yet). Choosing Schwalbe One's but selecting 23 mm is like going back in time to purchase a MKIII AC Cobra, but telling Shelby that instead of the 427 cubic inch FE V8, you'd like a 170 cu in straight six.;)

1speeder 03-22-14 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritterview (Post 16542593)
Our 295 lb team never suffered a pinch flat blow out with our Continental GP4000S 25 mm tires inflated at 120 psi until we did. Riding over a joint on a freeway overpass at 18 mph. Before I knew it, we went down, albeit quite slowly with just scrapes. Now while descending at 35 mph and hitting a road irregularity I think (and my stoker asks) ---was that a pinch flat? Should I stop to check? I'm more confident that it is not with 28 mm tires.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/703/e1fc.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/30/mgts.jpg

If 140 lb. UCI cyclists are on 25 mm tires, then a 300 lb. tandem team has no business being on a 23 mm tire. The risk of pinch flat by itself is enough to go wider. If they'll fit, I don't see any drawbacks to 28 mm tires. Doff those 23/25 mm's and don 28 mm's. Once riding these, even if you wanted to return to what you had, your stoker would forbade.

Wow, I'm not new to tandem's, been on and off of one since 1989, off road and on road (Ritchey Skyliner). After seeing your picture of the tire coming off the rim, I must admit, now I am thinking of going with a 28mm tire verses the 25 or even 23mm tires I have used way in the past. I only remember one pinch flat on the rear, coming down the front of Monitor pass back in 1997 (Death Ride, The Detour). Yes we hit 65mph at one point, braked before the steel cattle grates and when we came to the stop at the bottom, I realized we had a flat rear tire. Now a few years older and wiser, I want to ditch the 25mm Conti Gater's that are a few years old to the 28mm Schwalbe One, just because it will give us some extra cush before we pinch flat (Ok, we are now a 350 # team in our late 50's). I can run 23's all day long, heck, even something smaller on my road bike, but on a tandem, it is very hard to bunny hop over a slight road imperfection (yes, with a little bit more lag time due to age). So I guess one question I have on the picture of the tire unseated from the rim, how tight was the fit of the tire to the rim? Compared to how tight the Schwalbe One's fit on the rim.

Thanks, Mike

Ritterview 03-23-14 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1speeder (Post 16602427)
So I guess one question I have on the picture of the tire unseated from the rim, how tight was the fit of the tire to the rim? Compared to how tight the Schwalbe One's fit on the rim.

Thanks, Mike

Conti 4000s fit moderately tight on an ENVE rim, and the Schwalbe One's around the same. I've not had any particular problems with these getting on or staying on the rim. I've had other flats of course, but no roll offs like this. I don't know why it happened, as our course was straight after the pinch. It just makes for a dramatic photo.

Avoidance of pinch flats is an excellent reason to go to 28's.

28 mm tires: Get them for the pinch flat avoidance; stay for the ride comfort.

DubT 03-23-14 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritterview (Post 16602740)
Conti 4000s fit moderately tight on an ENVE rim, and the Schwalbe One's around the same. I've not had any particular problems with these getting on or staying on the rim. I've had other flats of course, but no roll offs like this. I don't know why it happened, as our course was straight after the pinch. It just makes for a dramatic photo.

Avoidance of pinch flats is an excellent reason to go to 28's.

28 mm tires: Get them for the pinch flat avoidance; stay for the ride comfort.

Pinch flat resistance is one of the main reasons for going tubeless. The other significant reason is the fact that there is no tube to heat up on a long down hill run and cause a blow out.

In the past 15,000+ miles of tandem riding we have NOT had a pinch flat, front or rear. 23mm or 25mm tube or tubeless therefore for now I will stay with the 23/25 setup. The 23 on the front is supposed to provide a slight aero advantage. We are happy with the ride comfort!

twocicle 03-23-14 01:13 PM

Of course, Wayne-DubT is riding 19mm rims (HED) vs. Will-Ritterview riding 22mm rims (ENV Classic 65?). Big difference in wheel specs.

Increased air volume = comfort and lower required pressure. Tubless has more room (no tube) for more air, so less pressure needed. A wider rim also allows for more air volume so it too can achieve comfort and a lower required pressure.

As a direct comparison, we moved from 18.5mm Spinergy rims with 25mm Conti 4-Season tires pumped up to 116-118psi. This pressure was necessary to retain the tire shape especially during hard cornering. The Spinergy rims were the narrowest we have ever had on a tandem. Now we are riding 23mm Kinlin 279/BHS472 rims with the same 25mm tires & tubes pumped to a firm but more compliant 105 psi. Cornering is actually better as the tire does not tend to deflect and it has a larger contact patch providing more grip (not to mention having a significantly laterally stiffer wheelset which track infinitely better). Surprisingly, we are feeling less road surface vibration with the new stiffer wheels vs the Spinergy, which I attribute directly to the reduced tire pressure required with the wider rims.

Bio specs: our current team weight is 265lbs + 30lb tandem. Other: euro touring (unloaded) we use 28mm tires to help span the varied surfaces (gravel, cobbles, etc) we encounter there.

Ritterview 03-24-14 01:05 AM

Now to spice things up vs. the Schwalbe One is the Continental GP 4000 S II, analyzed here.

It comes in 28 mm in black and reflex.

http://www.conti-online.com/www/link...onlineData.png

A table at Slow Twitch I think shows that the 28's have the least resistance. Is this really for a 50 kg rider? Or is that 50 kg on maybe the rear tire? So with our 28's we are not only reducing the risk of pinch flats, and increasaing ride comfort, we are also reducing rolling resistance. This effect must be magnified with the greater weights of a tandem. We have 140 kg total, figuring 55% on the rear wheel makes it 77 kg.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/articles/i..._Crr_chart.png
Finally, letís talk rolling resistance. Similar to the story Iíve heard from Specialized and Schwalbe, Continental says that larger tires roll faster. Hereís a breakdown of their four width options in the GP4000 S II (Crr on the Y axis, pressure on the X axis)

twocicle 03-24-14 10:01 AM

^^^ yes, they are providing their rolling resistance stats based on a 50kg load on a single tire.

The GP 4-Season is also listed as a Conti "race" tire, and supposedly a slightly heavier version of the 4000. This one has "2-layer Vectran™breaker and DuraSkinģ sidewall reinforcement", otherwise the specs and performance are closer to the 4000 than the cheaper Gatorskin (lower tpi, much heavier, etc). No mention of the "Chili" compound on the 4-Seasons.

If you are concerned about blowouts, punctures, etc, then the GP 4-Season may be a better choice over the 4000. Over the last 2 years, we have not had a single flat when using the 4-Seasons. Now that we are running a lower 105 psi with the same 25mm tires (but on 23mm wide rims), it will be interesting to see how that effects the tread wear pattern especially on the rear tire. Previously, we always tended to burn through a narrow middle strip on any tire we used, but with the lower psi I expect a more even (and increased longevity) wear pattern.

To us, the Conti ride quality is definitely less plush than the Schwalbe ZX. If for example I try to sneak +1 psi more into a Conti, my stoker asks me during a ride if I pumped the tires up harder... and she is usually correct when she feels the diff in harshness. Pumped to a similar firmness, the Schwalbe ZX feel more compliant (smooth) and still have great tracking while cornering hard. However, I have heard from other friends of many more punctures with the Schwalbe ZX than they had been experiencing with the GP 4-Season. So, there is a balance / choice to make...

DubT 03-24-14 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritterview (Post 16605387)
Now to spice things up vs. the Schwalbe One is the Continental GP 4000 S II, analyzed here.

It comes in 28 mm in black and reflex.

http://www.conti-online.com/www/link...onlineData.png

A table at Slow Twitch I think shows that the 28's have the least resistance. Is this really for a 50 kg rider? Or is that 50 kg on maybe the rear tire? So with our 28's we are not only reducing the risk of pinch flats, and increasaing ride comfort, we are also reducing rolling resistance. This effect must be magnified with the greater weights of a tandem. We have 140 kg total, figuring 55% on the rear wheel makes it 77 kg.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/articles/i..._Crr_chart.png
Finally, let’s talk rolling resistance. Similar to the story I’ve heard from Specialized and Schwalbe, Continental says that larger tires roll faster. Here’s a breakdown of their four width options in the GP4000 S II (Crr on the Y axis, pressure on the X axis)

I would like to see a chart that also includes aero advantage. When does a larger diameter tire increase aero drag to the point that a narrower tire is actually faster.

waynesulak 03-24-14 11:31 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritterview (Post 16605387)
Now to spice things up vs. the Schwalbe One is the Continental GP 4000 S II, analyzed here.

It comes in 28 mm in black and reflex.

http://www.conti-online.com/www/link...onlineData.png

A table at Slow Twitch I think shows that the 28's have the least resistance. Is this really for a 50 kg rider? Or is that 50 kg on maybe the rear tire? So with our 28's we are not only reducing the risk of pinch flats, and increasaing ride comfort, we are also reducing rolling resistance. This effect must be magnified with the greater weights of a tandem. We have 140 kg total, figuring 55% on the rear wheel makes it 77 kg.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/articles/i..._Crr_chart.png
Finally, let’s talk rolling resistance. Similar to the story I’ve heard from Specialized and Schwalbe, Continental says that larger tires roll faster. Here’s a breakdown of their four width options in the GP4000 S II (Crr on the Y axis, pressure on the X axis)

I have to say I am loving reading this thread. Looks like 28s have less rolling resistance, smoother ride and should have less pinch flats than narrower tires. There seems to be a trend on that graph which unfortunately is cut off at 28mm wide tires, the widest good road tires offered by Schwalbe and Conti.

We previously road 28mm tires and have moved to 40mm width kelvar bead flexible tires with a 3mm thick road tread similar to road tires discussed above. They roll fast, corner well and provide a smooth ride. Conti and Schwalbe are not in that tire market. Biggest downside is that most bikes can't run tires that wide. Food for thought when designing you next custom tandem. We slow guys are not the only ones that think so. Below is the Blayley's tandem with 42mm tires. Their blog is at: The Blayleys

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=370739

Aero is a concern as DubT point out. This would depend a lot on the surface. The bumper the road the more benefit from lower pressure hence from wider tires. On a very smooth road narrower harder tires should be faster. There is however a huge advantage on a bumpy road to lower pressure. Unlike small aero changes the lower pressure advantage is large enough to be readily seen and causes cobbled racers to ride very low pressures risking a often getting pinch flats on tubular tires in the process.

Ritterview 03-24-14 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynesulak (Post 16606599)
Below is the Blayley's tandem with 42mm tires. Their blog is at: The Blayleys

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=370739

The Bayley's blog is well worth reading, and tracks along well with what we have been discussing.


Tires

Some marketing folks and bike reviewers will have you believe the different grades of materials and butting have a big influence in bike comfort, but IMNSHO, any difference in materials is absolutely dwarfed by different width tires and tire pressure. In a blind test with the same frame geometry and tires, but different materials (steel, aluminum, carbon, titanium), I believe most riders will struggle to tell much, if any difference. But change the tires from 18 to 23 to 28 to 35mm, and I believe most riders will instantly notice a significant a difference in comfort.

This experiment can be tricky in practice though, when many production bikes are not designed for tires fatter than 25mm.

This isn't to say that one cannot fine-tune the ride of a bike with different materials, or butting or geometry, but tire volume differences don't (necessarily) require a new bike, and will likely give a bigger bang for the buck!

New England roads take a beating in the winter. Snowplows and the freeze-thaw cycle do their best to rip up our roads. Anyone who has ever ridden BMB can confirm that the roads can be brutally rough (and sometimes the pavement is missing completely). Skinny tires, 750 miles and rough pavement on the BMB course will beat up any rider. A 25mm or bigger tires can make a tremendous difference. My recommendation is to mount the widest tire you can get in your frame!

waynesulak 03-24-14 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritterview (Post 16606830)
The Bayley's blog is well worth reading, and tracks along well with what we have been discussing.


Tires

Some marketing folks and bike reviewers will have you believe the different grades of materials and butting have a big influence in bike comfort, but IMNSHO, any difference in materials is absolutely dwarfed by different width tires and tire pressure. In a blind test with the same frame geometry and tires, but different materials (steel, aluminum, carbon, titanium), I believe most riders will struggle to tell much, if any difference. But change the tires from 18 to 23 to 28 to 35mm, and I believe most riders will instantly notice a significant a difference in comfort.

This experiment can be tricky in practice though, when many production bikes are not designed for tires fatter than 25mm.

This isn't to say that one cannot fine-tune the ride of a bike with different materials, or butting or geometry, but tire volume differences don't (necessarily) require a new bike, and will likely give a bigger bang for the buck!

New England roads take a beating in the winter. Snowplows and the freeze-thaw cycle do their best to rip up our roads. Anyone who has ever ridden BMB can confirm that the roads can be brutally rough (and sometimes the pavement is missing completely). Skinny tires, 750 miles and rough pavement on the BMB course will beat up any rider. A 25mm or bigger tires can make a tremendous difference.My recommendation is to mount the widest tire you can get in your frame!

I am a big proponent of wide tires but not just any wide tires. Only wide tires of the same or better quality as the narrow tires they replace. Many people have a bad opinion of wide tires because all they have ridden are heavy stiff wide tires. I like this thread because it is comparing the same tires in differing widths. This highlights the effects of the added width by holding the other factors constant.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:33 PM.