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Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

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Old 03-24-14, 02:54 PM   #51
DubT
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PERFORMANCE OR COMFORT???

I am more interested in performance than in comfort! If comfort is your goal than the Schwalbe one tires are probably not the best tire to be using. They advertise them as fast and puncture resistant.

However our Calfee Tetra with 23/25 tires is very comfortable for us! But I announce bumps for my stoker and she is able to adjust so that bumps are not an issue.

if comfort is the goal then I agree big fat tires and maybe even front and rear suspension should be considered. Maybe Calfee will adapt their Manta (sp) suspension for use on a tandem.

on our 36 degree 15 mile ride today we both noticed again how smooth the bike is with the Schwalbe One tires.

We are senior citizens but we still enjoy a spirited ride. We own several Strava segments in our area. At times we poddle along but when we feel like we like to be able to hammer! That narrows my choice of tires/wheels, I do not want 28, 32 or 40mm tires on our tandem, maybe when we are old I might change my mind. Our current age is 70 and 71 years young!

Ritterview rides a super nice, super light Calfee Dragonfly. I think that this is a very stiff bike, from what I have read it sounds like the stoker is not happy with the ride. Thus the big tires, suspension seatpost etc. If I remember correctly the stoker stem was made longer which might have moved the stoker into a position that placed more weight on the seat. Maybe going back to a shorter stem might help transfer some weight off of the seat?
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Old 03-24-14, 03:42 PM   #52
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PERFORMANCE OR COMFORT???

I am more interested in performance than in comfort! If comfort is your goal than the Schwalbe one tires are probably not the best tire to be using. They advertise them as fast and puncture resistant.
^^^ Seems an odd statement to me, since we found the Schwalbe ZX are definitely way more comfortable than the Conti 4-Seasons in the same 25mm sizing and wheelset (as ridden last year) and relative firmness.

We have a lot of chip-seal in our area, which is a source of constant vibration and tire wear. Riding the Schwalbe ZX produced many a "oh my that is smooth" comments from both of us.

BTW, it doesn't matter which tires we use, we still jump the road tandem over the more abrupt curb transitions
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Old 03-24-14, 03:51 PM   #53
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PERFORMANCE OR COMFORT???
I am more interested in performance than in comfort! .......
A lot depends on how fast a team rides, how much they climb and how rough the road so skinny tires will be faster for some. Still before deciding some testing is needed not an assumption that one is faster than another. The only data available without testing them is how they look.

Rather than give more of my opinion and I will just say that Ritterview and I have tried them and been converted without giving up performance. Without testing them on your bike on your routes you will never know if they work better for you.

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Old 03-24-14, 04:24 PM   #54
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Was riding ZX before they hit the market & the same with the Schwable "0ne" so we train with Hed Beligum's C2 with Schwable One 28's,train heavy race lite one of our loops which is just short of being 50 miles, with climbing, was a fast group ride this last weekend, our new Macchiato build weight is 24 1/2lbs pedals and cages, knowing this weekend group ride was going to be if your off the back your gone, pulled out the Enve 45/65 with ZX 23's on, just saying 28's are smooth, but there is nothing better than a light fast wheelset build for speed!
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Old 03-24-14, 04:25 PM   #55
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^^^ Seems an odd statement to me, since we found the Schwalbe ZX are definitely way more comfortable than the Conti 4-Seasons in the same 25mm sizing and wheelset (as ridden last year) and relative firmness.

We have a lot of chip-seal in our area, which is a source of constant vibration and tire wear. Riding the Schwalbe ZX produced many a "oh my that is smooth" comments from both of us.

BTW, it doesn't matter which tires we use, we still jump the road tandem over the more abrupt curb transitions
Brian, our experience has been similar to yours, the Zx's were very smooth, I believe the Ones are even smoother. Schwalbe advertises both tires as racing tires. Schwalbe North America | Schwalbe North America They have a Marathon series that they designate touring/city tires. That was the point that I was attempting to make in my opening remark.
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Old 03-24-14, 04:30 PM   #56
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A lot depends on how fast a team rides, how much they climb and how rough the road so skinny tires will be faster for some. Still before deciding some testing is needed not an assumption that one is faster than another. The only data available without testing them is how they look.

Rather than give more of my opinion and I will just say that Ritterview and I have tried them and been converted without giving up performance. Without testing them on your bike on your routes you will never know if they work better for you.
Wayne, we rode 25/25 for about 1 1/2 years on this bike, i ordered some new tires and one of them was a 23 in a 25 box. I mounted it on the rear wheel and realized that something did not look right. I finally realized it was a 23 and put it on the front and mounted a 25 on the rear, I really did not notice a significant difference. I then bought a HED 3 front wheel and they suggested a 23 would be a better aero match than a 25 so I have stuck with 23's on the front and 25's on the rear. Works for us, your results may vary! We are Happy, Happy, Happy!
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Old 03-24-14, 06:09 PM   #57
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DubT, big differences in our rims,

Bad1's (above) are 24mm wide. Ritter's is 22mm.

The Conti 4-Season 25mm we have mounted on a 23mm rim, actually measures 26.8mm at its widest points. I have not mounted/measured a 28mm on these rims yet, but I bet it's going to have a "huge" width - maybe near 30mm.

Your rims are 19mm?

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Old 03-24-14, 07:54 PM   #58
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Wayne, we rode 25/25 for about 1 1/2 years on this bike, i ordered some new tires and one of them was a 23 in a 25 box. I mounted it on the rear wheel and realized that something did not look right. I finally realized it was a 23 and put it on the front and mounted a 25 on the rear, I really did not notice a significant difference. I then bought a HED 3 front wheel and they suggested a 23 would be a better aero match than a 25 so I have stuck with 23's on the front and 25's on the rear. Works for us, your results may vary! We are Happy, Happy, Happy!
Happy is what counts. We are doing this for fun after all.

Narrower is always less frontal area. As discussed in a prior thread, even the new wider rim shapes are designed to be fastest with 23 or even narrower tires.
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Old 03-24-14, 07:54 PM   #59
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DubT, big differences in our rims,

Bad1's (above) are 24mm wide. Ritter's is 22mm.

The Conti 4-Season 25mm we have mounted on a 23mm rim, actually measures 26.8mm at its widest points. I have not mounted/measured a 28mm on these rims yet, but I bet it's going to have a "huge" width - maybe near 30mm.

Your rims are 19mm?
Just measured the 28's on the Hed's rear wheel came out to be 29.84mm at 90 psi. That's why they feel so dang good!
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Old 03-24-14, 09:16 PM   #60
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Just measured the 28's on the Hed's rear wheel came out to be 29.84mm at 90 psi. That's why they feel so dang good!
That's great. My stoker, having become spoiled by the plush 1.25" (32 mm) Specialized Fat Boy tires on our Burley Tandem asks if we can have wider tires on the Dragonfly. Now I can tell her our tires are (nearly) 30 mm.

I just told her.

Yay, that makes be feel better...excellent!

Heh, heh...nothing but the best for my stoker.

Edit, addition:

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But I announce bumps for my stoker and she is able to adjust so that bumps are not an issue.
I've found that as I go to fatter, plusher tires, and so too with the CG-R seatpost, that this calling out of bumps, and scanning of road ahead for things to avoid is a hindrence. Riding sort of becomes like walking barefoot on a hot day. Instead of moving most efficiently, I'd wend around irregularities, call out bumps apologetically, etc. With the bump abatement I could concentrate more on going fast, and hold our line. If that goes over something, no worries, I'd not hear any reaction (through my Cardo BK), and things were all smiles.

So, something the Continental graph above doesn't show, is that stoker coddling slows you down. I invite others to make the switch to 28's (or 29.86 mm), and see if they can't ride with greater efficiency (i.e. faster) just due to greater stoker comfort.
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Old 03-25-14, 06:05 PM   #61
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Been riding either 23mm and 25mm tires for decades.
For the past several years have had great luck with Maxxis Re-Fuse tires. A couple years ago managed to have only 2 flats (one was a patch that came loose) in 5,200 miles! Usually get +/- 2,000 miles on rear tire and a couple hundred more off front tires.
Back in the 'old days' we usually rode 1 1/8 tires to up to 1 1/4 inch on our tandems.
Watching where you ride (debris/gravel/glass/torn off steelbelted car tire debris)
is a bonus.
We are a rather light team (just under 250 lbs) and run up to 120 PSI.
Pedal on!
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Old 03-28-14, 06:43 PM   #62
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Just measured the 28's on the Hed's rear wheel came out to be 29.84mm at 90 psi. That's why they feel so dang good!
We measured our 28 mm Schwalbe One's on our 22 mm ENVE rims at 115 psi. They measured 27.35 mm on the front and 27.6 mm on the rear.

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Old 03-28-14, 07:59 PM   #63
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We measured our 28 mm Schwalbe One's on our 22 mm ENVE rims at 115 psi. They measured 27.35 mm on the front and 27.6 mm on the rear.
Narrower, hmmm. Wonder what the inner width is for your (ENVE 65 Classic) carbon rims?
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Old 03-28-14, 10:51 PM   #64
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That is narrower than our 28mm ZX on a 19mm Mavic Cosmic rim.
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Old 03-29-14, 01:00 PM   #65
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Must be the difference in rims, I remeasured just to be sure & measurement was accurate.

sorry about crack in caliper screen too many waterski fin adjustments at ski course site
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Old 03-30-14, 10:42 AM   #66
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Must be the difference in rims, I remeasured just to be sure & measurement was accurate.[29.84]
Our measurement of 27.35 and yours of 29.84 mm, 2.49 mm, that's a big difference, like different size tires. I can't imagine putting ours on a different rim would add 2.5 mm. The One production just started, it must reflect variability in early lots. More caliper pics on different Ones are needed!
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Old 03-30-14, 10:47 AM   #67
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Our measurement of 27.35 and yours of 29.84 mm, 2.49 mm, that's a big difference, like different size tires. I can't imagine putting ours on a different rim would add 2.5 mm. The One production just started, it must reflect variability in early lots. More caliper pics on different Ones are needed!
Wondering if a lower tire pressure of 90 psi would produce a difference?
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Old 03-30-14, 10:47 AM   #68
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And there's stretch-out time. I put on a new PRO4 Endurance and complained over in the 41 that it was 2mm smaller than my older PRO4s. They correctly pointed out that they stretch. In a couple weeks and couple hundred miles, it stretched out that 2mm to exactly the same size as the older tires.
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Old 03-30-14, 01:20 PM   #69
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Schwalbe tire inflation chart: Inflation Pressure | Schwalbe North America

[TABLE="class: Text, width: 60%"]
[TR="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]
[TD="width: 40%, bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]Tire section width[/TD]
[TD="width: 60%, colspan: 2"]Recommended inflation pressure[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]20 mm[/TD]
[TD]
9,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]130 psi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]23 mm[/TD]
[TD]
8,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]115 psi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]25 mm[/TD]
[TD]
7,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]100 psi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]28 mm[/TD]
[TD]
6,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]85 psi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCCCCC"]30 mm[/TD]
[TD]
5,5 bar
[/TD]
[TD]80 psi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
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Old 03-30-14, 02:15 PM   #70
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Schwalbe tire inflation chart: Inflation Pressure | Schwalbe North America

[TABLE="class: Text, width: 60%"]
[TR="bgcolor: #cccccc"]
[TD="width: 40%, bgcolor: #cccccc"]Tire section width
[/TD]
[TD="width: 60%, colspan: 2"]Recommended inflation pressure
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]20 mm
[/TD]
[TD]
9,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]130 psi
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]23 mm
[/TD]
[TD]
8,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]115 psi
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]25 mm
[/TD]
[TD]
7,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]100 psi
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]28 mm
[/TD]
[TD]
6,0 bar
[/TD]
[TD]85 psi
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #cccccc"]30 mm
[/TD]
[TD]
5,5 bar
[/TD]
[TD]80 psi
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
^^^ Not really sure how to apply those numbers to a tandem. They say these numbers must be adjusted for weight != 75kg...
Quote:
The list of inflation pressure recommendations on the right can only provide a very general guide. The recommendations are for an “average rider” weighing about 165 lb (75 kg).
If the rider is heavier or carries luggage, a higher inflation pressure should be used. For each additional kilogram that the tire must carry (bike, rider, luggage), the inflation pressure should be increased by approx. 1%. It is recommended that higher inflation pressures are used on very small diameter tires such as recumbants and folding bikes.
So for example, a (270lb team weight + 30lb bike) / 2.2lbs/kg = 136kg (rounded down)
136 - 75 = +61kg differential = +61% ?

Ouch, that is pretty high psi!
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Old 03-30-14, 02:38 PM   #71
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Difference of 2.5mm has to be in the tyres. Rim width or pressure doesn't effect it that much.
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Old 03-30-14, 02:40 PM   #72
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^^^ Not really sure how to apply those numbers to a tandem. They say these numbers must be adjusted for weight != 75kg...


So for example, a (270lb team weight + 30lb bike) / 2.2lbs/kg = 136kg (rounded down)
136 - 75 = +61kg differential = +61% ?

Ouch, that is pretty high psi!
30.5%...Based on the above numbers, there are two tires. 111psi (7.8bar) for the 28s.
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Old 03-30-14, 06:50 PM   #73
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Max inflation pressure on a 28mm One V-guard is 115 lbs. So depending on team weight, 100-115 lbs. We run 110 on our PRO4 25mm which measure a hair under 28. 295 lb. team.
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Old 04-01-14, 08:37 AM   #74
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[h=2]In-depth look at Schwalbe One Tubeless blowouts[/h]Dear Lennard,
I wonder what thoughts you might have on my problem. I have several sets of wheels with Stan’s No Tubes Alpha 400 rims. I’ve run them without incident for two years with various Hutchinson Fusion 3 tubeless tires (23s), Hutchinson Intensive tubeless tires (25s), and even Hutchinson Secteur tubeless tires (28s) on my cyclocross bike.
I decided last week to try some Schwalbe One Tubeless tires (23s) on my road bike. Mounted them on one set of my wheels (without using a tire lever) without problems and put Stan’s sealant in them and pumped them to about 105 psi. Within five miles of my first time using them (at about 22 mph on a straight stretch of road, about a 60-degree Fahrenheit day … I’m about 220 pounds) the rear tire blew off the rim. I was able to ride it upright to a stop. The tire was outside the rim on both sides of the wheel.
I spoke to Schwalbe on the phone — very nice and helpful — and they are going to speak with Stan’s No Tubes with whom they have a good relationship (in fact, Stan’s makes Schwalbe’s sealant) to discuss any possible incompatibility issues. Although Stan’s has already told me there are none of which they are aware. Further, my inspection of the tire shows no punctures and although I am not going to ride the tire again, I was able to remount the tire and pump it to about 80 psi just to make sure there was no hole I missed. A day later, it is holding air. By the way — the front tire is fine, so far.
I am really paranoid now. I am very experienced at mounting tubeless tires so I don’t think it was anything I did, but if I did do anything wrong, I don’t know what it might be and I think it would likely be repeated — all I know is this never has happened before when mounting all the Hutchinson tires. Anything peculiar about Schwalbe One tubeless tires about which I should be aware when mounting? They are supposed to be good tires.
Other Questions:
— On the outside chance there is an incompatibility between this particular rim and model of Schwalbe tire, would you suggest going back to using the Hutchinson tires? I know Schwalbe makes good tires but this really spooks me not to be able to pinpoint the reason for the blowout.
— Everyone keeps telling me that only a “true tubeless wheel” when used with a “true tubeless tire” is foolproof (as distinguished from a “tubeless ready” wheel or tire). As I understand it, my Stan’s rims would be considered true tubeless rims except for the fact that their spoke holes in the bed of the rim are exposed and must be covered with mylar tape. I rather doubt that would make any difference from a safety perspective.
— Phil
Dear Phil,
A “true tubeless wheel” features a critical distinction from your wheels beyond simply the difference you mention between holes not piercing the rim bed vs. holes covered by sealing tape. A “true tubeless wheel” has a “hump” along the medial edge of the bead-seat ledge on either side of the rim. This hump not only seals along the medial rubber edge of each tire bead, but it also is intended to act as a beadlock; the tire bead snaps in between it and the bead wall. Photos of this can be seen here. The tubeless rim and tubeless tire system was designed as a system (by Hutchinson) to work together.
I have intentionally ridden a flat rear Hutchinson tubeless road tire down mountain switchbacks to see if it would stay on the rim (a tubeless-compatible Dura-Ace Scandium wheel, which does have the bead humps). It stayed on for over two kilometers of switchbacks before finally coming off on one side.
A tubeless road (TR) tire, like a standard clincher, has high pressures inside trying to yank it straight off of the rim, but, unlike a standard clincher, it lacks an inner tube pushing outward against the beads, and it has tire sealant lubricating its exit from the rim. I know from personal experience that mounting a standard road clincher that stays on the rim just fine with a tube inside will blow right off the rim within a few pedal strokes when ridden without an inner tube and inflated with sealant inside (whether it’s a tubeless-specific rim or any other road rim sealed with a rim strip).
Needless to say, because of that experience, using tubeless road tires is something I went into very carefully. But when my flat TR tire stayed on the rim better than standard clinchers stay on their rims when they are flat, I consider that in the case of a sudden casing cut, they could actually be safer than standard clinchers. I also never run mine higher than 90psi; one of the reasons I use them is that I can run them at lower pressures for increased comfort and decreased rolling resistance without fear of pinch flats. On the other hand, I weigh almost 50 pounds less than you do and understand that you need to run them at higher pressure.
Stan’s design is different from a tubeless-specific rim in that it has low bead walls, a rim-sealing strip, and no “hump.” I don’t know how well the square bead of a TR tire fits into that low bead wall, but I have successfully used Hutchinson Atom tubeless road tires on Stan’s rims for a full season, and many times I’ve run mountain bike and cyclocross tubeless tires on Stan’s rims without problems.
I don’t know if your problem is the tire, the rim, or both. Below are some answers from related manufacturers on this.
― Lennard
From Schwalbe:
I’ve been talking and corresponding with [Phil] about this issue. After we spoke for about 30 minutes yesterday, I agreed to get in touch with Stan’s to see if there was anything about their rim design and our road tubeless tires that suggested that there might be a compatibility issue. I sent an e-mail to Shawn VanEtten at Stan’s, and here is his response:
We try to test all new tires on the market as they come out and the Schwalbe One tire has been one of them. We don’t know too many riders on these tires but do know that we have not had any issues reported back to us until Philip. There seems to be no compatibility issues between the two.
To date, this is the first of our road tubeless tires that have come off the rim. I don’t have precise numbers but we’ve easily sold 2,500-3,000 of the Schwalbe One and the Ultremo ZX Tubeless tires. I ran the ZX tubeless on a set of DA C-24 Tubeless wheels this past summer and they performed flawlessly, and I’m a little north of 200 pounds myself.
I’m not sure what other assurances I can give to this customer. I certainly understand being squeamish about something that didn’t quite work out, especially given the nature of the issue (a water bottle failure would be not as distressing I’m sure) but we simply haven’t had an issue like this crop up. I have offered to warranty the tire in spite of the fact there is no real evidence that it was in fact a tire failure.
On the Schwalbe.com website is listed a number of Road Tubeless rims. The clarification from Germany is that this is a list of “known tubeless rims,” and not specifically a list of rims that Schwalbe has tested and approved. Reading between the lines here, I would say that the engineers at Schwalbe are reluctant to provide assurance about any specific rim when we are not the manufacturer; that responsibility lies with the wheel/rim manufacturer (my interpretation).
— Guy Browne
Customer Service and Tech Support
SCHWALBE NORTH AMERICA
schwalbetires.com

From Stan’s NoTubes:
I have not had any of the Schwalbe tubeless road tires to measure or test. I make a simple bead-checking device that can measure the bead size of the tire. It puts very little force on the bead but can measure the size exactly.
I can tell you a few things. In the past few years we have had at least 10 Hutchinson tubeless road tires snap beads and blow off rims. Hutchinson has always covered them under warranty. It can happen with any tire.
1. If the tire bead snaps you usually cannot get home with a tube unless you run low pressures. Once the bead has snapped that side of the tire will stretch and blow off the rim even with tubes.
2. If the bead just stretches off, it should still work with a tube to at least get you home.
3. Once a tire blows off the rim I would never use it again.
My guess is one bead stretched or snapped.
— Stan Koziatek
Founder, Stan’s NoTubes

From Hutchinson PR:
Speaking only about clinchers as a generic product class, we’ve all seen tires that were difficult to mount or blew off of rims. Was it sloppy ETRTO dimensional standards for the tire, the rim or a combination of the two?
From the beginning with Road Tubeless, Hutchinson was insistent that wheel manufacturers work in partnership to assure that the bead profile on the rim was compatible and offered the mechanical characteristics to properly seal the tire-bead and work with a carbon fiber beaded tire (tighter ETRTO standards).
Now with the growing tubeless tire and wheel presence in the market, what’s happened to that tire-wheel collaboration standard? Hard to say from Hutchinson’s perspective without knowing manufacturing standards and protocols across the market.
Stan’s 400 series wheels use what they call BST technology, which effectively shortens the distance from the top inner section of the rim channel to the top of the bead. Does the bead of the Schwalbe tire not fit as well in this reduced space thus not seating properly?
It’s all speculation at this point as to what actually happened, but with many tire and wheel players in the game, there’s no reason that tubeless tires won’t suffer from some of the same fit problems we see from time to time with normal clinchers.
My recommendation to this particular cyclist would be to stick with Hutchinson tires to allay his fears.
— Richard Goodwin
PR & Marketing Liaison
Hutchinson Tire North America


Read more at Technical FAQ: Sealing tubulars, riding tubeless - VeloNews.com

[h=2]In-depth look at Schwalbe One Tubeless blowouts[/h]Dear Lennard,
I wonder what thoughts you might have on my problem. I have several sets of wheels with Stan’s No Tubes Alpha 400 rims. I’ve run them without incident for two years with various Hutchinson Fusion 3 tubeless tires (23s), Hutchinson Intensive tubeless tires (25s), and even Hutchinson Secteur tubeless tires (28s) on my cyclocross bike.
I decided last week to try some Schwalbe One Tubeless tires (23s) on my road bike. Mounted them on one set of my wheels (without using a tire lever) without problems and put Stan’s sealant in them and pumped them to about 105 psi. Within five miles of my first time using them (at about 22 mph on a straight stretch of road, about a 60-degree Fahrenheit day … I’m about 220 pounds) the rear tire blew off the rim. I was able to ride it upright to a stop. The tire was outside the rim on both sides of the wheel.
I spoke to Schwalbe on the phone — very nice and helpful — and they are going to speak with Stan’s No Tubes with whom they have a good relationship (in fact, Stan’s makes Schwalbe’s sealant) to discuss any possible incompatibility issues. Although Stan’s has already told me there are none of which they are aware. Further, my inspection of the tire shows no punctures and although I am not going to ride the tire again, I was able to remount the tire and pump it to about 80 psi just to make sure there was no hole I missed. A day later, it is holding air. By the way — the front tire is fine, so far.
I am really paranoid now. I am very experienced at mounting tubeless tires so I don’t think it was anything I did, but if I did do anything wrong, I don’t know what it might be and I think it would likely be repeated — all I know is this never has happened before when mounting all the Hutchinson tires. Anything peculiar about Schwalbe One tubeless tires about which I should be aware when mounting? They are supposed to be good tires.
Other Questions:
— On the outside chance there is an incompatibility between this particular rim and model of Schwalbe tire, would you suggest going back to using the Hutchinson tires? I know Schwalbe makes good tires but this really spooks me not to be able to pinpoint the reason for the blowout.
— Everyone keeps telling me that only a “true tubeless wheel” when used with a “true tubeless tire” is foolproof (as distinguished from a “tubeless ready” wheel or tire). As I understand it, my Stan’s rims would be considered true tubeless rims except for the fact that their spoke holes in the bed of the rim are exposed and must be covered with mylar tape. I rather doubt that would make any difference from a safety perspective.
— Phil
Dear Phil,
A “true tubeless wheel” features a critical distinction from your wheels beyond simply the difference you mention between holes not piercing the rim bed vs. holes covered by sealing tape. A “true tubeless wheel” has a “hump” along the medial edge of the bead-seat ledge on either side of the rim. This hump not only seals along the medial rubber edge of each tire bead, but it also is intended to act as a beadlock; the tire bead snaps in between it and the bead wall. Photos of this can be seen here. The tubeless rim and tubeless tire system was designed as a system (by Hutchinson) to work together.
I have intentionally ridden a flat rear Hutchinson tubeless road tire down mountain switchbacks to see if it would stay on the rim (a tubeless-compatible Dura-Ace Scandium wheel, which does have the bead humps). It stayed on for over two kilometers of switchbacks before finally coming off on one side.
A tubeless road (TR) tire, like a standard clincher, has high pressures inside trying to yank it straight off of the rim, but, unlike a standard clincher, it lacks an inner tube pushing outward against the beads, and it has tire sealant lubricating its exit from the rim. I know from personal experience that mounting a standard road clincher that stays on the rim just fine with a tube inside will blow right off the rim within a few pedal strokes when ridden without an inner tube and inflated with sealant inside (whether it’s a tubeless-specific rim or any other road rim sealed with a rim strip).
Needless to say, because of that experience, using tubeless road tires is something I went into very carefully. But when my flat TR tire stayed on the rim better than standard clinchers stay on their rims when they are flat, I consider that in the case of a sudden casing cut, they could actually be safer than standard clinchers. I also never run mine higher than 90psi; one of the reasons I use them is that I can run them at lower pressures for increased comfort and decreased rolling resistance without fear of pinch flats. On the other hand, I weigh almost 50 pounds less than you do and understand that you need to run them at higher pressure.
Stan’s design is different from a tubeless-specific rim in that it has low bead walls, a rim-sealing strip, and no “hump.” I don’t know how well the square bead of a TR tire fits into that low bead wall, but I have successfully used Hutchinson Atom tubeless road tires on Stan’s rims for a full season, and many times I’ve run mountain bike and cyclocross tubeless tires on Stan’s rims without problems.
I don’t know if your problem is the tire, the rim, or both. Below are some answers from related manufacturers on this.
― Lennard
From Schwalbe:
I’ve been talking and corresponding with [Phil] about this issue. After we spoke for about 30 minutes yesterday, I agreed to get in touch with Stan’s to see if there was anything about their rim design and our road tubeless tires that suggested that there might be a compatibility issue. I sent an e-mail to Shawn VanEtten at Stan’s, and here is his response:
We try to test all new tires on the market as they come out and the Schwalbe One tire has been one of them. We don’t know too many riders on these tires but do know that we have not had any issues reported back to us until Philip. There seems to be no compatibility issues between the two.
To date, this is the first of our road tubeless tires that have come off the rim. I don’t have precise numbers but we’ve easily sold 2,500-3,000 of the Schwalbe One and the Ultremo ZX Tubeless tires. I ran the ZX tubeless on a set of DA C-24 Tubeless wheels this past summer and they performed flawlessly, and I’m a little north of 200 pounds myself.
I’m not sure what other assurances I can give to this customer. I certainly understand being squeamish about something that didn’t quite work out, especially given the nature of the issue (a water bottle failure would be not as distressing I’m sure) but we simply haven’t had an issue like this crop up. I have offered to warranty the tire in spite of the fact there is no real evidence that it was in fact a tire failure.
On the Schwalbe.com website is listed a number of Road Tubeless rims. The clarification from Germany is that this is a list of “known tubeless rims,” and not specifically a list of rims that Schwalbe has tested and approved. Reading between the lines here, I would say that the engineers at Schwalbe are reluctant to provide assurance about any specific rim when we are not the manufacturer; that responsibility lies with the wheel/rim manufacturer (my interpretation).
— Guy Browne
Customer Service and Tech Support
SCHWALBE NORTH AMERICA
schwalbetires.com

From Stan’s NoTubes:
I have not had any of the Schwalbe tubeless road tires to measure or test. I make a simple bead-checking device that can measure the bead size of the tire. It puts very little force on the bead but can measure the size exactly.
I can tell you a few things. In the past few years we have had at least 10 Hutchinson tubeless road tires snap beads and blow off rims. Hutchinson has always covered them under warranty. It can happen with any tire.
1. If the tire bead snaps you usually cannot get home with a tube unless you run low pressures. Once the bead has snapped that side of the tire will stretch and blow off the rim even with tubes.
2. If the bead just stretches off, it should still work with a tube to at least get you home.
3. Once a tire blows off the rim I would never use it again.
My guess is one bead stretched or snapped.
— Stan Koziatek
Founder, Stan’s NoTubes

From Hutchinson PR:
Speaking only about clinchers as a generic product class, we’ve all seen tires that were difficult to mount or blew off of rims. Was it sloppy ETRTO dimensional standards for the tire, the rim or a combination of the two?
From the beginning with Road Tubeless, Hutchinson was insistent that wheel manufacturers work in partnership to assure that the bead profile on the rim was compatible and offered the mechanical characteristics to properly seal the tire-bead and work with a carbon fiber beaded tire (tighter ETRTO standards).
Now with the growing tubeless tire and wheel presence in the market, what’s happened to that tire-wheel collaboration standard? Hard to say from Hutchinson’s perspective without knowing manufacturing standards and protocols across the market.
Stan’s 400 series wheels use what they call BST technology, which effectively shortens the distance from the top inner section of the rim channel to the top of the bead. Does the bead of the Schwalbe tire not fit as well in this reduced space thus not seating properly?
It’s all speculation at this point as to what actually happened, but with many tire and wheel players in the game, there’s no reason that tubeless tires won’t suffer from some of the same fit problems we see from time to time with normal clinchers.
My recommendation to this particular cyclist would be to stick with Hutchinson tires to allay his fears.
— Richard Goodwin
PR & Marketing Liaison
Hutchinson Tire North America


Read more at Technical FAQ: Sealing tubulars, riding tubeless - VeloNews.com

[h=2]In-depth look at Schwalbe One Tubeless blowouts[/h]Dear Lennard,
I wonder what thoughts you might have on my problem. I have several sets of wheels with Stan’s No Tubes Alpha 400 rims. I’ve run them without incident for two years with various Hutchinson Fusion 3 tubeless tires (23s), Hutchinson Intensive tubeless tires (25s), and even Hutchinson Secteur tubeless tires (28s) on my cyclocross bike.
I decided last week to try some Schwalbe One Tubeless tires (23s) on my road bike. Mounted them on one set of my wheels (without using a tire lever) without problems and put Stan’s sealant in them and pumped them to about 105 psi. Within five miles of my first time using them (at about 22 mph on a straight stretch of road, about a 60-degree Fahrenheit day … I’m about 220 pounds) the rear tire blew off the rim. I was able to ride it upright to a stop. The tire was outside the rim on both sides of the wheel.
I spoke to Schwalbe on the phone — very nice and helpful — and they are going to speak with Stan’s No Tubes with whom they have a good relationship (in fact, Stan’s makes Schwalbe’s sealant) to discuss any possible incompatibility issues. Although Stan’s has already told me there are none of which they are aware. Further, my inspection of the tire shows no punctures and although I am not going to ride the tire again, I was able to remount the tire and pump it to about 80 psi just to make sure there was no hole I missed. A day later, it is holding air. By the way — the front tire is fine, so far.
I am really paranoid now. I am very experienced at mounting tubeless tires so I don’t think it was anything I did, but if I did do anything wrong, I don’t know what it might be and I think it would likely be repeated — all I know is this never has happened before when mounting all the Hutchinson tires. Anything peculiar about Schwalbe One tubeless tires about which I should be aware when mounting? They are supposed to be good tires.
Other Questions:
— On the outside chance there is an incompatibility between this particular rim and model of Schwalbe tire, would you suggest going back to using the Hutchinson tires? I know Schwalbe makes good tires but this really spooks me not to be able to pinpoint the reason for the blowout.
— Everyone keeps telling me that only a “true tubeless wheel” when used with a “true tubeless tire” is foolproof (as distinguished from a “tubeless ready” wheel or tire). As I understand it, my Stan’s rims would be considered true tubeless rims except for the fact that their spoke holes in the bed of the rim are exposed and must be covered with mylar tape. I rather doubt that would make any difference from a safety perspective.
— Phil
Dear Phil,
A “true tubeless wheel” features a critical distinction from your wheels beyond simply the difference you mention between holes not piercing the rim bed vs. holes covered by sealing tape. A “true tubeless wheel” has a “hump” along the medial edge of the bead-seat ledge on either side of the rim. This hump not only seals along the medial rubber edge of each tire bead, but it also is intended to act as a beadlock; the tire bead snaps in between it and the bead wall. Photos of this can be seen here. The tubeless rim and tubeless tire system was designed as a system (by Hutchinson) to work together.
I have intentionally ridden a flat rear Hutchinson tubeless road tire down mountain switchbacks to see if it would stay on the rim (a tubeless-compatible Dura-Ace Scandium wheel, which does have the bead humps). It stayed on for over two kilometers of switchbacks before finally coming off on one side.
A tubeless road (TR) tire, like a standard clincher, has high pressures inside trying to yank it straight off of the rim, but, unlike a standard clincher, it lacks an inner tube pushing outward against the beads, and it has tire sealant lubricating its exit from the rim. I know from personal experience that mounting a standard road clincher that stays on the rim just fine with a tube inside will blow right off the rim within a few pedal strokes when ridden without an inner tube and inflated with sealant inside (whether it’s a tubeless-specific rim or any other road rim sealed with a rim strip).
Needless to say, because of that experience, using tubeless road tires is something I went into very carefully. But when my flat TR tire stayed on the rim better than standard clinchers stay on their rims when they are flat, I consider that in the case of a sudden casing cut, they could actually be safer than standard clinchers. I also never run mine higher than 90psi; one of the reasons I use them is that I can run them at lower pressures for increased comfort and decreased rolling resistance without fear of pinch flats. On the other hand, I weigh almost 50 pounds less than you do and understand that you need to run them at higher pressure.
Stan’s design is different from a tubeless-specific rim in that it has low bead walls, a rim-sealing strip, and no “hump.” I don’t know how well the square bead of a TR tire fits into that low bead wall, but I have successfully used Hutchinson Atom tubeless road tires on Stan’s rims for a full season, and many times I’ve run mountain bike and cyclocross tubeless tires on Stan’s rims without problems.
I don’t know if your problem is the tire, the rim, or both. Below are some answers from related manufacturers on this.
― Lennard
From Schwalbe:
I’ve been talking and corresponding with [Phil] about this issue. After we spoke for about 30 minutes yesterday, I agreed to get in touch with Stan’s to see if there was anything about their rim design and our road tubeless tires that suggested that there might be a compatibility issue. I sent an e-mail to Shawn VanEtten at Stan’s, and here is his response:
We try to test all new tires on the market as they come out and the Schwalbe One tire has been one of them. We don’t know too many riders on these tires but do know that we have not had any issues reported back to us until Philip. There seems to be no compatibility issues between the two.
To date, this is the first of our road tubeless tires that have come off the rim. I don’t have precise numbers but we’ve easily sold 2,500-3,000 of the Schwalbe One and the Ultremo ZX Tubeless tires. I ran the ZX tubeless on a set of DA C-24 Tubeless wheels this past summer and they performed flawlessly, and I’m a little north of 200 pounds myself.
I’m not sure what other assurances I can give to this customer. I certainly understand being squeamish about something that didn’t quite work out, especially given the nature of the issue (a water bottle failure would be not as distressing I’m sure) but we simply haven’t had an issue like this crop up. I have offered to warranty the tire in spite of the fact there is no real evidence that it was in fact a tire failure.
On the Schwalbe.com website is listed a number of Road Tubeless rims. The clarification from Germany is that this is a list of “known tubeless rims,” and not specifically a list of rims that Schwalbe has tested and approved. Reading between the lines here, I would say that the engineers at Schwalbe are reluctant to provide assurance about any specific rim when we are not the manufacturer; that responsibility lies with the wheel/rim manufacturer (my interpretation).
— Guy Browne
Customer Service and Tech Support
SCHWALBE NORTH AMERICA
schwalbetires.com

From Stan’s NoTubes:
I have not had any of the Schwalbe tubeless road tires to measure or test. I make a simple bead-checking device that can measure the bead size of the tire. It puts very little force on the bead but can measure the size exactly.
I can tell you a few things. In the past few years we have had at least 10 Hutchinson tubeless road tires snap beads and blow off rims. Hutchinson has always covered them under warranty. It can happen with any tire.
1. If the tire bead snaps you usually cannot get home with a tube unless you run low pressures. Once the bead has snapped that side of the tire will stretch and blow off the rim even with tubes.
2. If the bead just stretches off, it should still work with a tube to at least get you home.
3. Once a tire blows off the rim I would never use it again.
My guess is one bead stretched or snapped.
— Stan Koziatek
Founder, Stan’s NoTubes

From Hutchinson PR:
Speaking only about clinchers as a generic product class, we’ve all seen tires that were difficult to mount or blew off of rims. Was it sloppy ETRTO dimensional standards for the tire, the rim or a combination of the two?
From the beginning with Road Tubeless, Hutchinson was insistent that wheel manufacturers work in partnership to assure that the bead profile on the rim was compatible and offered the mechanical characteristics to properly seal the tire-bead and work with a carbon fiber beaded tire (tighter ETRTO standards).
Now with the growing tubeless tire and wheel presence in the market, what’s happened to that tire-wheel collaboration standard? Hard to say from Hutchinson’s perspective without knowing manufacturing standards and protocols across the market.
Stan’s 400 series wheels use what they call BST technology, which effectively shortens the distance from the top inner section of the rim channel to the top of the bead. Does the bead of the Schwalbe tire not fit as well in this reduced space thus not seating properly?
It’s all speculation at this point as to what actually happened, but with many tire and wheel players in the game, there’s no reason that tubeless tires won’t suffer from some of the same fit problems we see from time to time with normal clinchers.
My recommendation to this particular cyclist would be to stick with Hutchinson tires to allay his fears.
— Richard Goodwin
PR & Marketing Liaison
Hutchinson Tire North America


Read more at Technical FAQ: Sealing tubulars, riding tubeless - VeloNews.com
Great tubeless article in Velonews. Scroll down to second question.

Technical FAQ: Sealing tubulars, riding tubeless - VeloNews.com
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Old 04-01-14, 07:30 PM   #75
waynesulak
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Thanks for posting. I find the mentioning of bead snapping interesting. On tubed tires well overinflated this does not seem to happen.
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