Schwalbe One update (tube and tubeless)
I posted an update on the front tubeless installation here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ess-update#top
This is an update on the new Schwalbe One tires. We had a long discussion over lunch and then later in the car. Chris, my dear wife and stoker, wanted a detailed update on the wheels and tires that I have on the bike. We have now ridden outside 3 times on the new Schwalbe One tires. The front is the tubeless and the rear is a tube type. Both tires are new for this riding season. The reason that she wanted to know is that she has noticed that the ride at her end is SIGNIFICANTLY improved. It feels like the tires are not hitting the ground, almost like we are just floating along. Her quote not mine. I have also made the observation that the bike is amazingly smooth and quiet. This is a bike that we have ridden almost 15,000 miles. The new Schwalbe One tires have done something very nice to the ride. I did not realize that changing tires could make such a dramatic difference. 23 front 25 rear. Your Results May Vary! |
Originally Posted by DubT
(Post 16536959)
I posted an update on the front tubeless installation here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ess-update#top
This is an update on the new Schwalbe One tires. We had a long discussion over lunch and then later in the car. Chris, my dear wife and stoker, wanted a detailed update on the wheels and tires that I have on the bike. We have now ridden outside 3 times on the new Schwalbe One tires. The front is the tubeless and the rear is a tube type. Both tires are new for this riding season. The reason that she wanted to know is that she has noticed that the ride at her end is SIGNIFICANTLY improved. It feels like the tires are not hitting the ground, almost like we are just floating along. Her quote not mine. I have also made the observation that the bike is amazingly smooth and quiet. This is a bike that we have ridden almost 15,000 miles. The new Schwalbe One tires have done something very nice to the ride. I did not realize that changing tires could make such a dramatic difference. 23 front 25 rear. Your Results May Vary! |
Wayne, I have been running Schwalbe ZX's both front and rear. 23 in the front and 25 in the rear. 115 psi in the front and 120 in the rear, latex tubes in both. On our ride today I lowered the from to 90 and it felt great, 117 in the rear, stoker just said that the ride was great.
Wayne, from Illinois, right now in North Little Rock, our daughter raced a road race and we rode the course in reverse (open course, with permission) |
Been using the Schwable "1" 700x28 clincher 245 grams, 80 gram tube on Hed Beligum C2 the last 2 months for training purposes, 90 psi front & rear, these are by far some of the smoothest rolling tires I've used, 28's probably factor into that, but up at speeds descending they are so rock solid feeling and fast I'm having second thoughts on throwing the 23's away. I think the "1"s will live up to the hype!
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Originally Posted by DubT
(Post 16536959)
Both tires are new for this riding season. The reason that she wanted to know is that she has noticed that the ride at her end is SIGNIFICANTLY improved. It feels like the tires are not hitting the ground, almost like we are just floating along.
The new Schwalbe One tires have done something very nice to the ride. I did not realize that changing tires could make such a dramatic difference. 23 front 25 rear. Geez, aren't these kind of narrow for a tandem? We switched from Conti GP4000S 25 mm to Schwalbe Ultremo 28 mm, and that was a SIGNFICANT difference. I attribute just about all this difference to increase in width. We have Schwalbe One 28's mounted now, but haven't had a chance to ride (changing the freewheel on our rear hub from Campy to Shimano so to be able to mount an 11-32 11-speed cassette, don't ask). I expect that the Schwalbe Ones will be nice, but not dramatically different than the width identical Ultremos. Comparing the ride quality between two different 23 mm tire models on a tandem, that's sort of like....
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Originally Posted by Ritterview
(Post 16540183)
23 front 25 rear?!
Geez, aren't these kind of narrow for a tandem? We switched from Conti GP4000S 25 mm to Schwalbe Ultremo 28 mm, and that was a SIGNFICANT difference. I attribute just about all this difference to increase in width. We have Schwalbe One 28's mounted now, but haven't had a chance to ride (changing the freewheel on our rear hub from Campy to Shimano so to be able to mount an 11-32 11-speed cassette, don't ask). I expect that the Schwalbe Ones will be nice, but not dramatically different than the width identical Ultremos. Comparing the ride quality between two different 23 mm tire models on a tandem, that's sort of like....
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Basic tubeless question. Why do bicycle tubeless tires need sealant when auto tires do not?
It seems like the same technology and even at some of the same pressures. Run 40 psi in my car tires and I hear of tubeless mountain bikes running the same. |
Originally Posted by Ritterview
(Post 16540183)
23 front 25 rear?!
Geez, aren't these kind of narrow for a tandem? We switched from Conti GP4000S 25 mm to Schwalbe Ultremo 28 mm, and that was a SIGNFICANT difference. I attribute just about all this difference to increase in width. We have Schwalbe One 28's mounted now, but haven't had a chance to ride (changing the freewheel on our rear hub from Campy to Shimano so to be able to mount an 11-32 11-speed cassette, don't ask). I expect that the Schwalbe Ones will be nice, but not dramatically different than the width identical Ultremos. Comparing the ride quality between two different 23 mm tire models on a tandem, that's sort of like....
|
Originally Posted by Ritterview
(Post 16540183)
23 front 25 rear?!
Geez, aren't these kind of narrow for a tandem? We switched from Conti GP4000S 25 mm to Schwalbe Ultremo 28 mm, and that was a SIGNFICANT difference. I attribute just about all this difference to increase in width. We have Schwalbe One 28's mounted now, but haven't had a chance to ride (changing the freewheel on our rear hub from Campy to Shimano so to be able to mount an 11-32 11-speed cassette, don't ask). I expect that the Schwalbe Ones will be nice, but not dramatically different than the width identical Ultremos. Comparing the ride quality between two different 23 mm tire models on a tandem, that's sort of like....
As they say here in OK, it is what it is, I am happy, happy, happy and so is my stoker, which as you know is the most critical component of the equation! I am beginning to believe that tubeless truly has advantages for tandem use. If I can ride tubeless and not have a blowout and if tubeless will withstand more heat than a tube type tire when braking then it is a win, win! Wayne |
Originally Posted by waynesulak
(Post 16540628)
Basic tubeless question. Why do bicycle tubeless tires need sealant when auto tires do not?
It seems like the same technology and even at some of the same pressures. Run 40 psi in my car tires and I hear of tubeless mountain bikes running the same. wayne |
I raced tubeless for years offroad and have yet to see sealant work on 1/4 inch hole. That being said sealant seems to help with smaller holes. However actual UST tires come with the inside of the tire coated with a rubber that seals the holes(maxxis anyway). UST tires are heavier than tubeless ready etc... so people convert regular tires to tubless using sealent(regular tires are not air tight) to save weight.
a trick to help seal the tires without sealant is to uses liquid soap on the bead. tubeless tires blow off the rim much easier than using a tube if you over pressurize. and roll off the rim easily at low pressures. i would not risk running ultra low pressures on road tubless ever. the cost of rolling a bead on a high speed corner is to great. |
Originally Posted by Team Fab
(Post 16541687)
I raced tubeless for years offroad and have yet to see sealant work on 1/4 inch hole. That being said sealant seems to help with smaller holes. However actual UST tires come with the inside of the tire coated with a rubber that seals the holes(maxxis anyway). UST tires are heavier than tubeless ready etc... so people convert regular tires to tubless using sealent(regular tires are not air tight) to save weight.
a trick to help seal the tires without sealant is to uses liquid soap on the bead. tubeless tires blow off the rim much easier than using a tube if you over pressurize. and roll off the rim easily at low pressures. i would not risk running ultra low pressures on road tubless ever. the cost of rolling a bead on a high speed corner is to great. I am running 90psi, what do you consider to be ultra low pressure for a road application? |
On group rides, so far my impression of tubeless is negative. Of course we only get to see the sealant failures. But what a mess to fix! Doesn't seem to take much of a hole for the sealant not to work. I just look on in horror. I can see it for MTB.
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Originally Posted by DubT
(Post 16540901)
Will, the difference between 23mm and 25mm is ONLY 2mm, really insignificant.
BTW, that 2mm change increases the tire volume by ~ 18% - not insignificant in my book. |
Originally Posted by diabloridr
(Post 16542060)
If that's the case, why not simply run 23mm front and rear?
BTW, that 2mm change increases the tire volume by ~ 18% - not insignificant in my book. But insignificant in mine! Your book, my book. |
Originally Posted by DubT
(Post 16540901)
Our combined weight is under 300 pounds hence 23 front and 25 rear. When running tube type tires on the front we never had any pinch flats.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/703/e1fc.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/30/mgts.jpg If 140 lb. UCI cyclists are on 25 mm tires, then a 300 lb. tandem team has no business being on a 23 mm tire. The risk of pinch flat by itself is enough to go wider. If they'll fit, I don't see any drawbacks to 28 mm tires. Doff those 23/25 mm's and don 28 mm's. Once riding these, even if you wanted to return to what you had, your stoker would forbade. |
if they will fit From what type of bike, mountain, cyclocross, rough road, smooth road or track. Tires and wheel size will determine a lot of the fork and fame design. It should be the first decision made when deciding on a custom bike and one that cannot be easily upgraded later. |
Originally Posted by DubT
(Post 16541737)
The tire that I am using is a tubeless tire! I used the Schwalbe installation fluid on the beads to help with the seating/sealing.
I am running 90psi, what do you consider to be ultra low pressure for a road application? Does your set up lose air over a 24 hour period. If so take that into consideration on long ride days. |
We used to run 23mm on our tandem because they were fast. It was noticeable, coming from 28mm Gatorskins. Very light tires, very high pressure: 140 front and rear. Also a 300 lb. team.
Not all 23mm tires will take that pressure, so yes, 23mm tire model does make a difference. TG used to run 23mm. A local long distance racing team, heavier than we are, ran the identical tires with great success. I'd call a record a great success. However, a thin casing, high pressure, and a lot of weight per tire made for a delicate tire. Too many flats, too many sudden deflations from cuts. We went to 25mm at 115 lbs. Much better and still fast. Now we are running PRO4 Endurance 25mm, which measure 29mm on our new 23mm rim. We run the PRO4 tires at 110 on 19mm rims and 100 on 23mm. Bike still feels fast, and way fewer flats, which increases our real-time speed. 2 minutes is forever on a group ride, and 10 minutes is never see them again. The only times we've had a pinch flat with any of these tires was when Captain screwed up and rode over a large rock with one side of a tire. Since one runs a smaller tire at an appropriately higher pressure, pinch flat likelihood remains the same. I do call "up" if I see it coming. I use tire size * pressure = 3000 for a tandem approximation. So we've had a couple pinch flats on the tandem as well as on my single bikes. Never an blow-off sort of pinch flat. I can't imagine how that could happen. If a tire can hold air pressure inside a tube, the tire should be able to hold pressure outside a tube. I don't see the difference. We had 3 heat blow-offs before we went to Deep-Vs, all with 25mm 4000s, but never had a tire come off the rim. Always got it stopped. We still carry a 23mm light tire for a spare. Works fine. Gotta have a good pump, though. |
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
(Post 16542921)
Never an blow-off sort of pinch flat. I can't imagine how that could happen. If a tire can hold air pressure inside a tube, the tire should be able to hold pressure outside a tube. I don't see the difference. We had 3 heat blow-offs before we went to Deep-Vs, all with 25mm 4000s, but never had a tire come off the rim. Always got it stopped.
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We've been riding Schwalbe One's (25mm) for about a month now, and they've been great. Noticeably better ride than Continental GP4000s.
The reason for narrow tires is aerodynamic. We usually TT on Zipp808 wheels with 23mm rims. According to the Zipp rep, the difference between 23mm and 25mm tires on our wheels (pre Firecrest) is about 8 watts per wheel, not insignifcant. The aerodynamics of newer, wider rims, changes the issue a bit, in that some are optimized to work with 25mm tires. Zipp still recommends 23mm for their firecrest rims, but the difference between 23 and 25 on them is much smaller, than on the older Zipps. This is one of the main reasons you're seeing some pros go to wider tires, and they're still not doing it for TT's. At a 350lb team weight, we don't have trouble with pinch flats on 23mm at 120psi, or 25mm at 110psi. I do, however, like the 25mm for sharp cornering, just to have a bigger contact patch. To put this in perspective, back in the day, we use to TT on 18mm tires on single bikes, and 20mm was not unusual for road races. |
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
(Post 16543748)
We've been riding Schwalbe One's (25mm) for about a month now, and they've been great. Noticeably better ride than Continental GP4000s.
The reason for narrow tires is aerodynamic. We usually TT on Zipp808 wheels with 23mm rims. According to the Zipp rep, the difference between 23mm and 25mm tires on our wheels (pre Firecrest) is about 8 watts per wheel, not insignifcant. The aerodynamics of newer, wider rims, changes the issue a bit, in that some are optimized to work with 25mm tires. Zipp still recommends 23mm for their firecrest rims, but the difference between 23 and 25 on them is much smaller, than on the older Zipps. This is one of the main reasons you're seeing some pros go to wider tires, and they're still not doing it for TT's. At a 350lb team weight, we don't have trouble with pinch flats on 23mm at 120psi, or 25mm at 110psi. I do, however, like the 25mm for sharp cornering, just to have a bigger contact patch. To put this in perspective, back in the day, we use to TT on 18mm tires on single bikes, and 20mm was not unusual for road races. I like wide tires but must agree that aerodynamics is the one great reason to go as narrow as possible. If aero is a big concern then go as narrow as you can keeping in mind that one pinch flat and gets you dropped, kills the TT time or (for us) reduces the enjoyment of the ride. I guess I am not sure of the 8 watts per wheel for us. Usually when I read the protocol for that kind of measurement, it is a 30 mph and often without a real rider. This applies to us only when we are in an aero tuck on a down hill or going into a 15+ mph headwind. No doubt wide tires cost us an aero penalty but with high drag riding positions I wonder how small a percentage. |
Originally Posted by waynesulak
(Post 16544363)
I guess I am not sure of the 8 watts per wheel for us. Usually when I read the protocol for that kind of measurement, it is a 30 mph and often without a real rider.
I'd bet the wattage difference at the speeds most teams ride fades to noise. |
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
(Post 16543748)
At a 350lb team weight, we don't have trouble with pinch flats on 23mm at 120psi, or 25mm at 110psi.
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^ it's not like we've never had a pinch flat, but it's pretty rare. (last one I remember was hitting a major pothole while motor pacing behind a truck, not my brightest moment)
Some people just seem to ride "heavier" than others. We rode with a couple in Hawaii that couldn't have weighed more than 240lbs combined, and they pinched flatted 3 times in one ride. In spite of being big, I tend to be light on wheels, avoiding crap, standing with loose knees and elbows when you do have to hit something. Now if I could just convince my stoker to bunny hop the tandem. |
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