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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    . This pleading should come from whoever is building the wheel for you, as wheelbuilders are valued customers for rim manufacturers, whereas individual tandem owners are not.
    Ritterview, thanks for the heads up with your original post. I called Enve today and they told me the same story "only available to Cannondale". So I called Calfee and asked them to plead my case. I should know tomorrow. If that doesn't work I will have my LBS (wheel builder) call. Great investigative work :-)

    Thanks,
    JH

  2. #27
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plowhorse View Post
    So I called Calfee and asked them to plead my case. I should know tomorrow. If that doesn't work I will have my LBS (wheel builder) call. Great investigative work :-)

    Thanks,
    JH
    Well, now that you know that 28 hole rims have been made, and that ENVE has the molds, you cannot purchase the 24 hole. You must source the 28 hole. Its too expensive to not have the ideal. Imagine if you find the 24-spoke wheel a wee bit flexy, that'd chafe. Your stoker would ask "How come the wheels are flexy, when we paid so much for them?" "Well, ENVE wouldn't sell me the 28 holes". "Why not?" "Uh...because I'm not Cannondale". You don't want that line of inquiry!

    The problem is that this is now beyond the capacity of your LBS, who (most likely) ENVE has never heard of. Your wheelbuilding business should go to he that can source the 28-hole. This should be a big customer of ENVE, and someone who might find it useful to sell 28 hole SES 3.4 rims in the future. Two that come to mind are Rich at Wheelbuilder (they build a lot of Calfee wheels) and Jason at Fairwheel (they built my wheels).

    The 28-hole ENVE 3.4 SES rim might be a super rim for tandems, and it would be a boon to tandems if these could be made available.

  3. #28
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    A Cannondale vendor that would forget to mention that the wheel is not intended as a replacement?

  4. #29
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plowhorse View Post
    Thomson stems
    Seatposts
    You'll want to see how your stem choice fares on the Fairwheel stem review.

    As long as you are spec'ing seatposts, I think that you'd want to consider a carbon suspension seatpost for the stoker, such as the Specialized CG-R or the Ergon CF3 Pro Carbon SetBack. Stoker comfort is everywhere and always important, and now you can get some with a minimal weight penalty.

  5. #30
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    You'll want to see how your stem choice fares on the Fairwheel stem review.

    As long as you are spec'ing seatposts, I think that you'd want to consider a carbon suspension seatpost for the stoker, such as the Specialized CG-R or the Ergon CF3 Pro Carbon SetBack. Stoker comfort is everywhere and always important, and now you can get some with a minimal weight penalty.
    Since riding our first Calfee, my stoker swears she does not need any form of suspension post. Regardless I have thought of installing something like a CG-R (~200gm there is no weight penalty), but would not be able to use that on tours where we typically mount a lightweight seatpost rack that can handle 10-15lbs... should not hang that off of any carbon post. Besides that, she is way under the rider weight range to activate the suspension characteristics of most posts. Even male riders 50 or 60lbs heavier have reported little to no benefit from some of those posts.

    As a more universal stoker butt coddling device, she is loving a Terry Butterfly Carbon saddle. For $130 (Amazon), it's a lot cheaper than the posts, light weight (215gm), works with virtually any post and it can stay on the tandem permanently. Tiny as she is, the FLX saddles were too firm.

    Keep it simple and try going without any suspension post at the start. Installing a saddle your stoker loves is the first priority.

    P1030929 (Large).JPG
    Last edited by twocicle; 04-29-14 at 10:24 AM.

  6. #31
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    We have 3 tandems and the one we ride the most has a suspension post (stiff cdale) but she wants to try the calfee without one to start and go from there. She to has a favorite saddle (Prologo Kappa) and that will be going in the new build for sure.

    Thanks
    JH

  7. #32
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Mine dropped the heavy suspension when we went to wide 75 psi tires. Net loss of weight. No road buzz in the handle bars either. It must be the carbon in the tire tread!

    That said a sprung leather brooks and standard post is lighter than a traditional suspension seat post and avoids installation issues for short stokers.

    The new flexible carbon post looks like a good option. I am interested to see how it holds up.
    Last edited by waynesulak; 04-29-14 at 04:13 PM.

  8. #33
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plowhorse View Post
    We have 3 tandems and the one we ride the most has a suspension post (stiff cdale) but she wants to try the calfee without one to start and go from there. She to has a favorite saddle (Prologo Kappa) and that will be going in the new build for sure.

    Thanks
    JH
    Having trialed the CG-R, I think that a carbon suspension seatpost would be worthwhile even if the stoker was an insensate cyborg. It is better that the load to the rear be suspended so to reduce the instability caused by the up-and-down movement of the stoker's mass.

  9. #34
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
    Mine dropped the heavy suspension when we went to wide 75 psi tires. Net loss of weight. No road buzz in the handle bars either. It must be the carbon in the tire tread!
    This is true. I omitted mentioning the (newly added benefit this year) of running our 25mm tires at only 106psi with 23mm wide rims rather than 118psi on the previous 18.5mm rims. Even though our new wheels are much more rigid than the Spinergys, the new tire ride quality characteristics more than compensate. Up till a couple years ago I never would have thought it possible to be running such "low" air pressure on a road tandem and still have better cornering performance. Progress

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    This is true. I omitted mentioning the (newly added benefit this year) of running our 25mm tires at only 106psi with 23mm wide rims rather than 118psi on the previous 18.5mm rims. Even though our new wheels are much more rigid than the Spinergys, the new tire ride quality characteristics more than compensate. Up till a couple years ago I never would have thought it possible to be running such "low" air pressure on a road tandem and still have better cornering performance. Progress
    And I am running 85-90psi in the front 700 X 23 Tubeless on a 19mm HED3 wheel. Great cornering and the ride is good.

  11. #36
    Senior Member diabloridr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    It is better that the load to the rear be suspended so to reduce the instability caused by the up-and-down movement of the stoker's mass.
    Why don't all bikes have suspension posts to reduce instability?

    If you suspend the stoker (or captain....) you will potentially affect power production/injury potential due to constantly changing seat to pedal distance.

    My stoker test drove a suspension post and gave it big thumbs down (YMMV).

    The only time I feel stoker movement is when she stands, but she is small (~100 pounds).

    Not saying suspension posts don't have their place, but there are negatives to weigh.

  12. #37
    Senior Member diabloridr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    This is true. I omitted mentioning the (newly added benefit this year) of running our 25mm tires at only 106psi with 23mm wide rims rather than 118psi on the previous 18.5mm rims.
    When did you last calibrate your pump?

  13. #38
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diabloridr View Post
    When did you last calibrate your pump?
    I have 3 floor pumps that all jibe, at least within a psi or so. Hope that is scientific enough.

    After some 400 miles of riding, the 25mm Conti 4-Seasons mounted on the 23mm wide rims are now measuring 27.7mm!! I guess that is equivalent to 28mm @ 106psi. We are at 265lbs as a team + ~35lbs for the tandem loaded with bottles, etc. For us, 106psi is right in line with the touted pressure adjustment of reducing 118psi by ~11% when moving from 19mm to the 23 or 24mm range.

    Here is a sample of my single bike wheels using 23mm Conti GP4000 tires:
    Mavic Ksyrium, rim: 19.6mm, 112psi. tire width: 23.6mm
    Shimano 9000 C24, rim: 21mm, 108psi. tire width: 24.7mm
    Rolf Vigor A, rim: 22mm, 105psi. tire width: 25.9mm

    Other than width, bed height in the rims vary so not all rims of the same width allow the same amount of air volume.
    Last edited by twocicle; 04-30-14 at 02:40 PM.

  14. #39
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    Even though our new wheels are much more rigid than the Spinergys, the new tire ride quality characteristics more than compensate.
    This gets me going about the supposed ride quality of Spinergys, with their PBO spoke technology.



    The function of spokes on tandem wheels are to provide the most lateral stiffness and strength with the least weight and aerodynamic drag. Spokes are a weak point on tandems, and they are hard pressed to do even this function.

    If you are to go rooting around a tandem to look for someplace to absorb buzz, it is (IMO) ill-advised to settle on spokes, the most stressed and problematic component of all.

    If you want to improve ride, install wider tires. Leave the spokes alone. If after wider tires you want further improvement, then get still even wider tires. If you want your wheels to give you a smoother ride, get wheels with wider rims that will allow wider tires.

    When it comes to the function of being aero, the Spinergy wheel cannot be good, its 24(?) spokes being 3 mm in diameter, whereas Sapim CX-Ray spokes in comparison are 0.9 x 2.2 mm. 3 mm vs. 0.9 mm is a big difference.

    Tandem wheels have more forces impacting lateral flex. In this one generally positive half-bike review the wheels appear to be considered flexy. If body English causes flex on a half-bike, a tandem's two bodies are going to flex these all the more.

    Cornering feel
    The PBO spokes help keep the wheels tracking through a corner by helping soak up hits that might normally throw a wheel off its line. But when really diving hard into a corner, or throwing some body English into an out-of-the saddle acceleration, there is some side to side flex that is more evident in the rear wheel.
    So, aside from being non-aero and flexy, Spinergy wheels are great at absorbing buzz, a job that should be left up to the tires.
    Last edited by Ritterview; 04-30-14 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Added link

  15. #40
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Amen. The humble stainless steel spoke is hard to beat in all is various shapes and sizes. The Spinergy wheels do get the prize for most humble product because of the ad copy clearly states that

    "All this delivers a wheel that is lighter, stronger, faster and superior in every way."



    PBO Fiber Spoke Technology - Available only from Spinergy

    Spinergy engineers have invented a revolutionary technology for stronger, lighter and faster wheels. Introducing PBO Fiber Spoke Technology. Every PBO spoke contains over 30,000 strands of polyphenylene bensobisoxazole fiber, delivering 3-times the strength of stainless steel at just half the weight.

    Giving you the ultimate edge

    The PBO fiber strands are encased in a chemical resistant, water / UV proof composite offered in a variety of colors. The outcome is a flexible spoke with incredible strength that will absorb impact more efficiently while staying in true. Our patented PBO spokes are lighter than traditional steel spokes which results in less rotational weight and a faster responding wheel ’ giving you the ultimate edge. All this delivers a wheel that is lighter, stronger, faster and superior in every way.
    Since I don't see any other wheels mentioned I infer that Spinergy means "lighter, stronger, faster and superior in every way" when compared to every other wheel on the market. no data is given to back up this all inclusive claim.

    The wheels look like some thought has gone into the design and may be good wheels but that type of sales hype turns me off.

    Added a link here to an older thread about the wheels.

    Spinergy Wheels and Average Speed?
    Last edited by waynesulak; 04-30-14 at 03:27 PM.

  16. #41
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    ... Wider symmetrical hubs make stronger front wheels. The same goes for rear wheels.
    unfortunately all that gets wider is the axle , the hubshells for the 11 speed cassette hubs are dished less

    by moving their flanges centered under the rim but no wider apart ..

  17. #42
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    I was referring to using 135mm rear spacing mentioned above. That narrow spacing requires a narrow dished wheel and if the user is concerned about with wider spacing for a stronger wheel then 145 or 150 or 160mm would be preferred.

    Are referring to 145mm drop out Spinergy wheels?

  18. #43
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Me? Im talking about the hubshell itself , AFAIK, Shimano freehubs dont use a different one .

    the axle is wider, and the width is added on the left end , so the hub shell is shifted to the right .

    No greater base width, as the hubshell itself remains the same but the rim is over the middle of the centerline in beween those flanges

    so spoke tensions are pretty close to dishless equal ..



    now If you instead were fitting A Rohloff hub in the rear wheel .. then they are wider apart and a bigger diameter too ..

    though 'just' a 135.. axle

    in the last couple years for tandem users they added a 36 hole hubshell to make a 3 cross (maybe 4) build possible ..

    people were using them in tandems and the 32 hole 2 cross did have some spoke flange cracks ,

    when couples were touring to places in Peru over the Andes and such on Dirt roads carrying a full camping kit,

    so they got a second hub shell option made ..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 04-30-14 at 06:26 PM.

  19. #44
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diabloridr View Post
    Why don't all bikes have suspension posts to reduce instability?

    If you suspend the stoker (or captain....) you will potentially affect power production/injury potential due to constantly changing seat to pedal distance.

    My stoker test drove a suspension post and gave it big thumbs down (YMMV).

    The only time I feel stoker movement is when she stands, but she is small (~100 pounds).

    Not saying suspension posts don't have their place, but there are negatives to weigh.
    The stoker, being closer to the rear wheel than the more centrally situated captain (or half-bike rider) gets more road jarring.

    You mention suspension posts in general, but I was specifically referencing the carbon posts, such as the CG-R. It doesn't bounce so much as absorb. I've seen oscillating stokers atop Thudbusters, but that isn't what I was talking about. Here's a video that shows both on a bike, I think I see more bouncing with the Thudbuster. When we actually used the CG-R, my experience was the stoker was more stable back there.

  20. #45
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    Since riding our first Calfee, my stoker swears she does not need any form of suspension post. Regardless I have thought of installing something like a CG-R (~200gm there is no weight penalty), but would not be able to use that on tours where we typically mount a lightweight seatpost rack that can handle 10-15lbs... should not hang that off of any carbon post. Besides that, she is way under the rider weight range to activate the suspension characteristics of most posts. Even male riders 50 or 60lbs heavier have reported little to no benefit from some of those posts.

    As a more universal stoker butt coddling device, she is loving a Terry Butterfly Carbon saddle. For $130 (Amazon), it's a lot cheaper than the posts, light weight (215gm), works with virtually any post and it can stay on the tandem permanently. Tiny as she is, the FLX saddles were too firm.

    Keep it simple and try going without any suspension post at the start. Installing a saddle your stoker loves is the first priority.

    P1030929 (Large).JPG
    Arkel makes a nifty randonneuring rack and a bag to go with it. The rack works great with a carbon post. We have one on Stoker's new CG-R and are very pleased with it. She says the CG-R damps better than her old telescoping post. Stoker also loves her Specialized Oura Expert saddle.

  21. #46
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    <snip>Based on research and talking to the great LBS manager, stay away from Chris King... far too much maintenance and costly proprietary parts, plus the freehub is quite draggy.<snip>
    We have CK hubs on our Speedster, original equipment and now 11 years old. They are absolutely the most trouble-free hubs I have ever used. We ride in the rain and grit all winter and considerable even in summer. When I open them up, they look like they were built in a space shuttle clean room. I do take them to a LBS that knows CK and have them gone over once a year. They've never needed anything beyond a little grease. They don't seem draggy to me. Too bad they don't build a greater variety of tandem rears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
    The stoker, being closer to the rear wheel than the more centrally situated captain (or half-bike rider) gets more road jarring.

    You mention suspension posts in general, but I was specifically referencing the carbon posts, such as the CG-R. It doesn't bounce so much as absorb. I've seen oscillating stokers atop Thudbusters, but that isn't what I was talking about. Here's a video that shows both on a bike, I think I see more bouncing with the Thudbuster. When we actually used the CG-R, my experience was the stoker was more stable back there.
    The proper elastomer Will take care of that bounce shown in that video with no problem, anyone familiar with the thudbuster would recognize that person was too heavy for that elastomer set up on your video, you can tailor the rebound on that particular seat post by simply switching the elastomer out.

  23. #48
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    More Carbon? ERGON BIKE ERGONOMICS

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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    I had procured one of the Ergon Setback Seatpost for the wife, she gave it a month trial run and didn't like it at all, too much bouncing in the 90/100rpm range and above when going hard, absolutely smooth horizontal pedal stroke, @130# no way to dampen it down maybe she was to lite to flex the post for optimal usage.

  25. #50
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    Just returned home from Santa Rosa, CA where I rode a Calfee demo tandem for the Wine Country Century. The trip couldn't have been better and everything went as planned. When I arrived at La Selva Beach (Calfee) to pick up the demo bike, Rob had it set up perfectly for our measurements and Jason gave us a great tour of the facility. We rented a Chrysler minivan with "stow and go" seating (per forum recommendation) and the bike slipped right in and we were off to Santa Rosa.

    We were faster over most of the route compared to previous years riding a Cannondale, but we were minutes faster on the climbs. The bike handled well and felt smooth and stable with great cornering ability (I felt like I had ridden the bike hundreds of times). We achieved a top speed of 47mph and the bike felt like it was on rails and my stoker even commented how comfortable she was at that speed.

    When we returned the bike on Monday Jason spent over an hour with us on the sizing machine fine tuning the build specs and we came to the conclusion that we will need to add 1" to the stoker compartment to allow my stoker's knees to clear when she is out of the saddle. So no timing belt for now. :-(

    Whiskey Carbon Road fork thru axle 43 degrees
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