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Shimano Di2 Triple

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Shimano Di2 Triple

Old 08-02-14, 05:29 PM
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[QUOTE=Team Fab;16998724]Also, look at Chris Horners climbing while standing, seems to work quite well for him.[/QUOTE
C.H. Lives in the neighbor hood, we've done his Gran Fondo's the last two years with him participating, Chris had to cancel this years Fondo due to complications. It's amazing how many different ways a bicycle can be rode to achieve what ever you seek!
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Old 08-02-14, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 2frmMI
Does -having- a right side drive make one a -proponent- of right side drive? I don't recall ever having taken a position other than with my checkbook. I would put us squarely in the camp of "gathering data" on this. The data so far are that stoker thinks we climb much better. And at whose peril shall we debate what the stoker thinks?
Originally Posted by waynesulak
Well said. My inference was made from your statement that you use it and were unlikely to ditch it. I did not give due consideration to your stokers possible input into the matter.
Not sure what Right-Side-Drive (or SSD) has to do with missing gears... basically nothing. Really, it's just a matter of chainring count as dictated by the currently available road Di2 FD limitations.

Even in a triple setup, the new mtn Di2 FD won't give you more range in the chainrings because of its severe ring capacity limitations as mentioned earlier in this thread.
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Old 08-02-14, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by twocicle
Not sure what Right-Side-Drive (or SSD) has to do with missing gears... basically nothing. Really, it's just a matter of chainring count as dictated by the currently available road Di2 FD limitations.

Even in a triple setup, the new mtn Di2 FD won't give you more range in the chainrings because of its severe ring capacity limitations as mentioned earlier in this thread.
True it is the ring count that limits the gears but the primary reason for giving up a triple is often to allow for the right side sync. It seems that the main reasons two rings get used on tandems are either Di2 or right side sync ruling out a triple. I haven 't seen too many posts about a modern double ring, left side sync, mechanical shifting tandem.
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Old 08-03-14, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by waynesulak
True it is the ring count that limits the gears but the primary reason for giving up a triple is often to allow for the right side sync. It seems that the main reasons two rings get used on tandems are either Di2 or right side sync ruling out a triple. I haven 't seen too many posts about a modern double ring, left side sync, mechanical shifting tandem.
Thats what we have. 39/56 and 11-32, 11 speed cassette. Campag shifters.
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Old 08-03-14, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean V
Thats what we have. 39/56 and 11-32, 11 speed cassette. Campag shifters.
In addition earlier you posted that you love your 56 x 11 top gear. You seem to a have a team strong enough to use that gearing. My guess is you are much stronger than most.
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Old 08-03-14, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by waynesulak
True it is the ring count that limits the gears but the primary reason for giving up a triple is often to allow for the right side sync. It seems that the main reasons two rings get used on tandems are either Di2 or right side sync ruling out a triple. I haven 't seen too many posts about a modern double ring, left side sync, mechanical shifting tandem.
IMO, those assumptions are debatable and I've mostly been ignoring mechanical because this thread is about Di2. I will say that after running the Shimano Dura-Ace 9000 mechanical 11spd on my single, the drivetrain is very finicky and no way I would run that on a tandem. Conversely, since Di2 shifting is so precise and headache free (re: auto trims the FD and maintains RD cage alignment without constant tweaking wire tension) that if running Shimano 11spd, Di2 is the only sane choice.

There is only one mfr who promotes RSD/SSD, otherwise it's not that typical of an implementation. I believe Di2 is much more prevalent regardless of what crankset (crossover or SSD) is installed and the primary reasons for using Di2 are entirely unrelated.

Last edited by twocicle; 08-03-14 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 08-25-14, 09:42 AM
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Latest BikeRumor "first impressions" update:
First Impressions: Shimano XTR Di2 & Mechanical Mountain Bike Groups
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Old 08-26-14, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mstyer
With an available 11-40 cassette, who needs a triple? Use a DA Di2 double up front and an XTR rear to get a 2x11 with a really wide but evenly stepped gear range.

https://www.gear-calculator.com/#KB=3...5&UF=2130&SL=2
Just came off a 50 mile tandem ride and saw this setup on a brand new BEYOND......it worked without a hitch.....rolling terrain, about 1500-1800 ft of climb and no issues.....we rode next to them on a triple and was jealous......

Would like to test that on climbs over 3,000 ft though with grades >10% - 12%

Last edited by TeamG; 08-26-14 at 03:43 PM. Reason: added copy
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Old 08-26-14, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamG
Just came off a 50 mile tandem ride and saw this setup on a brand new BEYOND......it worked without a hitch.....rolling terrain, about 1500-1800 ft of climb and no issues.....we rode next to them on a triple and was jealous......

Would like to test that on climbs over 3,000 ft though with grades >10% - 12%
You got me curious.
Did that team have a DA DI2 front and XTR DI2 rear? Or is it a mechanical system?
What did you like about that setup?
Smoother shifting? Wider range? More lower gear? Or more higher gear?
Thanks,
CJ
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Old 08-27-14, 09:30 AM
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XTR Di2 is still reported to be unavailable to the general public. Must have been a mechanical setup (search "M9000", JensonUSA seems to have good availability, BikeBling better pricing through some avail not until Oct)?
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Old 08-27-14, 09:56 AM
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My bad...was not DI 2...in fact was a Ultegra mechanical triple with the 11-40 and the rear XTR........it is interesting as I was always advised the XTR would not work on the 10-spd, but his worked without a problem.....the upside with the 11-40 according the the captain was that there was more range in the middle to upper cogs......though he did not get a chance to utilize anything over 28....our max grade was only 4%.
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Old 08-27-14, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamG
My bad...was not DI 2...in fact was a Ultegra mechanical triple with the 11-40 and the rear XTR........it is interesting as I was always advised the XTR would not work on the 10-spd, but his worked without a problem.....the upside with the 11-40 according the the captain was that there was more range in the middle to upper cogs......though he did not get a chance to utilize anything over 28....our max grade was only 4%.
Ah, so it is mechanical Ultegra 11spd shifters with the mechanical XTR 11spd (M9000) RD

There was a compatibility gap in the 10spd groups - road vs mtn due to a different dynasys throw ratio. That required one to use the 9spd mtn XTR RD with the 10spd road shifters. Now with the 11spd groups, throw ratios are back in synch.

I still can't get my brain wrapped around the fact that Shimano is not releasing any 11spd cassettes with 34t or 36t max cogs. You only get a 32t or a 40t cassette choice for big cogs

Regardless, it's neat to hear someone has already jumped on the super-sized cog setup.

Last edited by twocicle; 08-27-14 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 08-27-14, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by twocicle
Ah, so it is mechanical Ultegra 11spd shifters with the mechanical XTR 11spd (M9000) RD

There was a compatibility gap in the 10spd groups - road vs mtn due to a different dynasys throw ratio. That required one to use the 9spd mtn XTR RD with the 10spd road shifters. Now with the 11spd groups, throw ratios are back in synch.

I still can't get my brain wrapped around the fact that Shimano is not releasing any 11spd cassettes with 34t or 36t max cogs. You only get a 32t or a 40t cassette choice for big cogs

Regardless, it's neat to hear someone has already jumped on the super-sized cog setup.
Thank you for making sense of this....now I get it...the mix and match of MTN bike cassettes with the non 36 tooth Road cog (Shimano) was making me nuts.....probably just stick with the mountain bike cassettes.

Did I hear right on the rumors that Shimano is coming out with a 36 tooth road cassette? Will require a longer hanger over the current Ultegra derailleur?
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Old 08-30-14, 10:43 AM
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Found this compatibility chart on Shimano website today:

https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/pdf...y_chart_en.pdf

Apparently you can design a "MTB" system with ultegra/DA road shifters, a DA front deraileur, and a XTR rear derailleur. Add on the XTR front junction box (SC-M9050), you can even get rear gear indicator and synchro shifting.

The 11 speed Ultegra FD is not considered compatible in this set up.

CJ
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Old 08-30-14, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by chojn1
Found this compatibility chart on Shimano website today:

https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/pdf...y_chart_en.pdf

Apparently you can design a "MTB" system with ultegra/DA road shifters, a DA front deraileur, and a XTR rear derailleur. Add on the XTR front junction box (SC-M9050), you can even get rear gear indicator and synchro shifting.

The 11 speed Ultegra FD is not considered compatible in this set up.

CJ
I am a little confused by the chart. The MTB column has two FD, M9050 & M9070. The M9050 is listed on the Shimano web site an is a double chainring FD. The M9070 is not on the web site. The link I am looking at is below and PDF of the page is attached.

Shimano XTR | shifting

I suppose the M9070 may be the triple FD?
The M9070 "User Manual" (attached) is so limited I can't tell from it if the M9070 is a triple or double FD. Basically the "User Manual" seems to be just a page with product warnings.

If the M9070 is a triple FD then I suppose the road shifters in chart would allow for setting up a Di2 mountain triple crank, mountain triple FD with road levers?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
Shimano XTR _ shifting.pdf (107.4 KB, 5 views)
File Type: pdf

Last edited by waynesulak; 08-30-14 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 08-30-14, 01:31 PM
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Wayne,
I think you're right.
I had mistaken the M9070 FD for their dura ace version but apparently that is probably their designation for the mountain triple. I guess there will not be inter mingling of derailleurs. They are very specific that any incompatibility will cause the entire system to stop working.
That's too bad because I don't think their mountain front derailleur is designed for larger road chainrings.
Shifters on the other hand can go on any setup.
CJ
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Old 08-30-14, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chojn1
Found this compatibility chart on Shimano website today:

https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/pdf...y_chart_en.pdf

Apparently you can design a "MTB" system with ultegra/DA road shifters, a DA front deraileur, and a XTR rear derailleur. Add on the XTR front junction box (SC-M9050), you can even get rear gear indicator and synchro shifting.

The 11 speed Ultegra FD is not considered compatible in this set up.

CJ
Good find.

According to the chart, Road vs Mtn appear to be governed by the derailleur series being used. This jibes with the information & rumors posted earlier. The chart shows that the "M" (mtn) series derailleurs for the "Mtn" setup group must be used together. Mixing derailleur groups (ie: 1 road, 1 mtn) does not appear in the chart.
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Old 08-30-14, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by chojn1
Wayne,
I think you're right.
I had mistaken the M9070 FD for their dura ace version but apparently that is probably their designation for the mountain triple. I guess there will not be inter mingling of derailleurs. They are very specific that any incompatibility will cause the entire system to stop working.
That's too bad because I don't think their mountain front derailleur is designed for larger road chainrings.
Shifters on the other hand can go on any setup.
CJ
I am hopeful that the mtn triple FD cage can be modified to work with road rings. An expensive gamble unless one had a backup plan to use the Di2 mtn group if it did not work out. Even if modifying the FD works there is also the gamble that Shimano will later disable the road shifters. Hopefully someone will give it a try.
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Old 09-05-14, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamG
Thank you for making sense of this....now I get it...the mix and match of MTN bike cassettes with the non 36 tooth Road cog (Shimano) was making me nuts.....probably just stick with the mountain bike cassettes.

Did I hear right on the rumors that Shimano is coming out with a 36 tooth road cassette? Will require a longer hanger over the current Ultegra derailleur?
It is actually our Beyond the Team G was referring to and here are the specs on it:
All mechanical
FD Ultegra triple 53/39/29 (I believe this is correct)
RD XTR 40 -11 (10-speed)
Since we are a big team (pushing 400lbs) we elected to stay with the triple so that we would have a bail out gear. In the 29-40 combo we can spin at about 4.5mph and on the top end we spin out at about 35mph with the 53 -11. I typically ride it like a double using mostly the the big too rings and use the small ring for long climbs. I can trim the system so that doesn't make noise with in the middle ring throughout the full range in the back. I haven't measured the chain deflection to see how bad it is really crossed (anyone know what would be considered the max deflection you should use?) so I am not sure if this is a good idea or not.

When the triple DI gets worked out we may upgrade, then again I can do a lot of shifting for what it would cost for the upgrade.
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Old 09-05-14, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by waynesulak
True it is the ring count that limits the gears but the primary reason for giving up a triple is often to allow for the right side sync. It seems that the main reasons two rings get used on tandems are either Di2 or right side sync ruling out a triple. I haven 't seen too many posts about a modern double ring, left side sync, mechanical shifting tandem.

I am finally catching up on this thread. I wanted to comment that we do in fact have a double chainring, left side sync, with mechanical shifting. It works quite well.

Now one might ask "why"? The reason is that when spec'ing our new bike a year and a half ago, I really wanted to go with Di2. At the time, I was not sure if I'd like the wider gearing and if we would not like it in the long run. So I had the bike built with cable routing for electronic shifting, but set it up with mechanical (cheaper) to see how we liked the gearing. Turns out that the gearing works well for us. 52-34 chainrings with 11-36 cassette. SRAM Red shifters and X.O long cage deraileur. I think we could get away with 52-36 chainrings, but I like having the idea of an easier gear, just in case. Maybe if we were road racing or racing TTs, I'd want some tighter gears, but we spend most of our time going up and down hills where we live.

At some point we will likely switch to some kind of electronic shifting. Maybe once SRAM wireless is out for a while, that might be worth looking at.

My point of posting is that going with 2x works fine and chasing a right side drive does not need to be the rational for using it. Besides, the component manufacturers seem to be going more and more towards 2x. I don't mind the bigger jumps in gearing (I guess we're just not that sensitive to it, maybe due to spending more time on the mountain bike tandem?). A long cage deraileur and wide range cassette goes a long way!
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Old 01-21-15, 11:27 PM
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Did anyone ever figure out if the derailleur can be modified to work with road triples?
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Old 01-23-15, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mithrandir
Did anyone ever figure out if the derailleur can be modified to work with road triples?
We are all waiting for someone to give it a try.
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Old 01-27-15, 11:26 AM
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An update is in this thread in Post #6 .
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...fee-build.html

It provides a link to a blog here:

https://blog.tandemthings.com/2015/01...ad-tandem.html
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Old 01-27-15, 12:07 PM
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Groan.
Apparently, Shimano really, REALLY, does not want to sell me Di2 components.
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Old 01-27-15, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by waynesulak
An update is in this thread in Post #6 .
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...fee-build.html

It provides a link to a blog here:

TandemThings: XTR Di2 parts on a road tandem
I don't quite get why Joth bothered trying to mix a XTR Di2 RD with a DA Di2 FD since all available public info said you can't do this. How about trying it with a XTR Di2 FD too!!
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