Carbonfiberboy 

In our team, Stoker calls the standing butt breaks every 10 minutes by her Garmin. Sometimes we get to stand and coast, but usually we stand on the flat or hills. We've gradually lengthened our stands as Stoker has gotten stronger. We did the 200 mile STP one-day this year. Both our butts were a little tender by the end, but still OK. Stoker is using a Specialized Oura Expert saddle which she says simply disappears. They are female specific and come in widths. Seatpost is a carbon Specialized CG-R, which she also loves. CoMo Speedster, the Racing Limo.

joe@vwvortex

Definitely looking at getting the CG-R as we have the old Specialized Pave post on there now, which she likes.

Bill G

The Wife and Stoker loves the Thudbuster short travel seat post by Cane Creek, started using them several years back now. We have one on our Co Motion tandem and our Da Vinci Joint Venture 700 tandem. She says it really takes the edge off the bumps plus the Thudbuster does not knock your knee geometry out of whack as it works. We also use the Tandem talk wireless headsets they work well and keep communications clear and crisp.

Take Care All,
Bill G

WPH

Bill


Slightly off-topic here, but how do your v-brakes work with the Campagnolo brake lever? Normally some sort of adaptor (eg Travel Agent) is needed to adjust the cable-pull ratio so that v-brakes can be used with roadbike levers. I couldn't spot an adaptor in your photo.


W

Bill G

WPH,

The front brake is a TRP CX8.4 brake it is designed for road levers and no travel agent is required. The brake works great with the road levers, it's a strong brake with good modulation. The rear is an Avid road disk brake. My Co Motion on the other hand has Avid single digit V brakes and they require the travel agents. They work pretty darn good with the travel agents but the travel agent has to be installed correctly. The TRP brake on the other hand is really the cats meow with road levers.

Take Care,
Bill G

Ludkeh

I posted earlier when we had just gotten our DaVinci with my observations after a few rides. Now that we've got half a summers worth of riding in we've found that we no longer use or need our Bluetooth intercom system. Since I don't have to relay my every move, it makes for a much nicer riding experience. Again we're totally happy, satisfied with our DaVinci and will not be going back to locked tandem riding.

Bill G

Its funny you say that and I can agree for sure in a lot of ways. We have the two tandems our Co Motion and our Da Vinci Joint Venture 700 and like I have stated many times we like both tandems and ride both on a regular basis. With that said I find the Da Vinci the more we ride it to be an awesome and fast tandem, great handling and I or we really like the ICS system, slow speed handling going around things the ICS shines big time. Up hill gearing is awesome as well as the high end gearing. The gear spacing is super nice and has close ratios and our Da Vinci shifts really smooth. We have the Campy shifter and 4 cog front set up with the Scram X-9 rear derailleur and a 11-34 rear cassette.

Some folks on the forum (never having ridden a Da Vinci) have tried to make the case with merit for the ICS drive train being heavy and complicated and the Da Vinci tandems are never seen in tandem races ( not everyone wants to race a tandem you got to pick your medicine for the task). For sure not seen in races this is true at least not in any races I have seen (being locked together would probably be better for a top race team.) Yes they are correct that the ICS system weighs a few oz more and would look to be less efficient by all standards. With that said I can tell you yes the ICS system weighs a few oz's more but we don't really find it less efficient feeling when riding that we can really tell or let me say that the average tandem team could tell and we have put the Da Vinci Joint Venture 700 and the ICS system through the paces comparing it heads up to our Co Motion. We find our Da Vinci just as fast and it handles just as good as our Co Motion in fact with the tighter gear ratios the Da Vinci actually is a little not much but a little easier to maintain top speed on rolling hills or slightly up and down bike paths. I believe this is because you can manage the tighter gear ratios that the ICS system has to your advantage allowing you to maintain your top speeds. Also climbing steep hills the gear ratios are a big benefit for an average or above average team and I suppose power house tandem teams would not care.

A few years with the Da Vinci now and about 14 years on different Co Motions a Cannondale and a KHS tandem.

We Love our Da Vinci as well and it gets more saddle time than not lately.

Take Care,
Bill G

Bornco

Bill,

Thanks for the nice review, your experience with both the ICS and regular systems are appreciated. We've finally decided to buy a new tandem next year for our 10th anniversary and I'm very interested in the DaVinci. Your slight favoring of the DaVinci just might tip the scales!!

Jack

Ludkeh

Like you Bill G, we also have a Co-Motion Java along with our DaVinci In-2-Ition Road bike! My stoker much prefers the In-2-Ition Road bike. My problem is that my mind can't seem to let the Co-Motion go! I worked hard to get it just right for our hilly countryside. I still enjoy seeing it hanging up there along with all my singles!

zonatandem

Have ridden 30+ brands/models of tandem bikes from A to Z . . . (Assenmacher to Zona) . . . including the daVinci in our 40+ years as tandemistas.
daVinci folks build a great and beautiful machine. However we are used to pedaling 90 degrees out-of-phase and the ICS system was not our preference.
Try several brands of tandems and see which suits your riding style.
Photo #1 our current Zona tandem
Photo #2 our Assennacher tandem (circa 1978)
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Bill G

Glad you liked it. Keep in mind when I review these tandems my wife and stoker is pretty sharp and gets it. She has no issues understanding how to get into sync, how to take off peddle set up on either tandem ( a little different with the ICS system but not much) not a word needs to be said. I think maybe it might be different with a lessor experienced stoker but all the things I said would still apply over all. Things again may be different for other tandem teams than our experience. Given time and understanding I believe all teams could shine with the ICS system and take advantage of some of its inharant advantages as mentioned by Da Vinci lovers. Again like old Zonatandem says may not be for everybody was not for them because of there style.

Take Care,
Bill G

Bill G

Got what your saying for sure but I do really like both tandems and the wife would shoot me if I got rid of either one. Lol

Take Care,
Bill G

merlinextraligh

I wouldn't expect that the efficiency loss would be enough that you could tell just riding the two back to back without power data.

I would expect however that its probable that the ICS system is costingabout 2% of power in efficiency loss.

Forum member ASU GT did testing with SRM cranks and a power tap hub, on a conventional tandem, to measure drive train loss, and found that power loss for the stoker was 1.8% and power loss for the captain was 6%. Other studies show driverain loss from a bike chain at 2-4% of power.

The Davinci adds another bottom bracket, 2 chainrings, freehub type mechanism, and chain. Conservatively, it would be reasonable to expect that the friction loss from all that would be in the range of the 1.8% power loss the stoker experiences on a conventional tandem. It could be in the 2-4% range found for drivetrain loss on singles.

There are additional reasons to believe that the loss could be higher. First, it's a known fact that smaller cogs have more friction loss than larger cogs. The tiny cogs the Davinci uses have to be adding some friction loss. Second, ASU Gt's study showed that the Captain's efficiency loss was greater than 6% if the stoker didn't pedal. Thus, to the extent, the ICS ends up with more time where the Captain pedals and the Stoker coasts, it increases the Captain's efficiency loss.

You could prove this out empirically with 2 sets of Vector pedals, and a power tap. Until someone does that we're limited to extrapolating from existing data.

Admittedly a 2% drivetrain loss would hardly be noticeable, but it is a tradeoff. Which is my whole point, the ICS system involves tradeoffs. For many those tradeoffs are worth it, for others not.

For us, we have no desire to independently coast, so any downside at all to ICS comes with on offsetting advantage. That's obviously not the case for anumbe of other who clearly love ICS.

Bill G

Thanks, I already new all this stuff when we got the Da Vinci. I had done the research and my point was like you said your self above most can't even tell the difference. A lot of folks like the coasting and wider gear ratios and many like you that all are into the weight thing don't. So I say people should by what they like and go ride and have a great time. Do the research try the tandems out and go ride the one you like.

Take Care,
Bill G

merlinextraligh

Agreed.