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Old 07-11-14, 12:12 PM   #1
joe@vwvortex
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Yet another new wheel thread - but I'm interested to hear more about rim widths

After my latest episode with my Rolfs I'm going to build a new set of wheels. Right now the two rims under consideration are the HED Belgium C2's Disc and Pacenti SL23. I run dual discs and will be using White Industries MI6 hubs with the Ti Campy freehub as I run full Campy 10 on the bike. Going to do 32h front and rear as the weight savings for 28 spokes in the front is negligible. Most likely going with Sapin CX-ray spokes with alloy nipples. These will go on our CoMo Speedster.

My biggest question is the new wider rim widths. We run GP4000 28's on the bike and even if we consider changing to a different tire - I see us sticking with a 28 width. HED offers the C2 disc in a new + 25mm with.

I've noticed several teams are moving to the 23mm width and running a 25mm tire and liking that combo. Which leads me to think that I might be better of going with the 25mm wide C2 plus rims. So before I pull the trigger on a 23mm wide rim - I'm looking for feedback on 28mm tires on 25mm rims.
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Old 07-11-14, 02:04 PM   #2
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My experience is on my single bike so this may be of limited use. Early last year I switched to HED Ardennes fr
on my single road bike. That is the 23mm version and I run 25mm Vittorias. The first ride was truly enlightening.
I went from 100lb in the old 23mm tires to 90lb. in the 25s. That first ride, my first and immediate response was,..wow
these are really soft. Felt really smooth,..but really slow. But that was deceiving. I am actually at least as fast and
in some instances I am faster. Not by much, but still. AND the corning stability is great.

I weigh 160 so I don't know how that all plays out on the tandem with higher weights and just generally greater forces.
I do buy into the "wide rim" cool aid and I think the tandem would benefit, but mostly in bike handling. I think the added
weight of the tandem already creates that subtle feel I have with the wide rims but the added weight wouldn't necessarily
create any additional stability on twisty downhills.

GOOD LUCK!

Rich

Last edited by vtrich; 07-11-14 at 02:09 PM. Reason: forgot to delete in first draft
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Old 07-11-14, 03:15 PM   #3
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I have run the same 28mm wide tires on both Velocity (19mm wide) and Velocity Dyad (24mm wide) rims. I see very little downside to the wider rim. For the same rim profile there is a little extra material which adds a little to the weight but with a 28mm tire the 23-24mm rim will better support the tire when cornering (especially at lower pressures) plus you get a little increase in tire volume which brings many of the benefits often mentioned. There may also be some aero benefit to the wider rim which has a smoother transition between tire and rim than the narrower rim. Other than weight I see no benefit to a rim width narrower than 23-24mm when using a 28mm or wider tire.

I would however hesitate to run 25mm or narrower tires on a 24mm rim on a daily basis. I think once the rim width approaches the tire width the sidewalls are too exposed to road debris especially when leaning hard in a corner. That is a bias on my part and others will probably disagree.

While I am suggesting the wider rim, I would also like to add that this is assuming both rims are of good quality and meet whatever other criteria you have in a rim. The added width is nice but not as important as the general quality of the rim's design, material and manufacture.

Please let us know how you wheels come out. I would like to hear how stiff the wheels are in comparison with others you have run on the same tires at the same pressure.

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Old 07-11-14, 03:57 PM   #4
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I have run the same 28mm wide tires on both Velocity (19mm wide) and Velocity Dyad (24mm wide) rims. I see very little downside to the wider rim. For the same rim profile there is a little extra material which adds a little to the weight but with a 28mm tire the 23-24mm rim will better support the tire when cornering (especially at lower pressures) plus you get a little increase in tire volume which brings many of the benefits often mentioned. There may also be some aero benefit to the wider rim which has a smoother transition between tire and rim than the narrower rim. Other than weight I see no benefit to a rim width narrower than 23-24mm when using a 28mm or wider tire.

I would however hesitate to run 25mm or narrower tires on a 24mm rim on a daily basis. I think once the rim width approaches the tire width the sidewalls are too exposed to road debris especially when leaning hard in a corner. That is a bias on my part and others will probably disagree.

While I am suggesting the wider rim, I would also like to add that this is assuming both rims are of good quality and meet whatever other criteria you have in a rim. The added width is nice but not as important as the general quality of the rim's design, material and manufacture.

Please let us know how you wheels come out. I would like to hear how stiff the wheels are in comparison with others you have run on the same tires at the same pressure.
Both rims (HED and Pacenti) appear to be of good quality and have received a lot of good reviews. After reading what you wrote - it would appear that the 23mm width would give the ability to run a 25mm tire. I know I've stated that I would continue to use 28mm tires no matter what - but a 25mm rim would require me to.....
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Old 07-14-14, 01:44 PM   #5
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Both rims (HED and Pacenti) appear to be of good quality and have received a lot of good reviews. After reading what you wrote - it would appear that the 23mm width would give the ability to run a 25mm tire. I know I've stated that I would continue to use 28mm tires no matter what - but a 25mm rim would require me to.....
Both rims are great quality. However, both are somewhat in the "lightweight" category and not really up to tandem use. Jason @ Fairwheel recommended the Kinlin 279 (BHS has same rim) as a stronger rim over either of those other two rims, and from what I've seen I tend to agree.

As far as rim width goes, you wouldn't have any issue with a 23-24mm wide rim + 28mm tire. No need to go wider unless you are setting up a pair of TT wheels with bulbous shaped rims.
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Old 07-14-14, 04:09 PM   #6
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Both rims are great quality. However, both are somewhat in the "lightweight" category and not really up to tandem use. Jason @ Fairwheel recommended the Kinlin 279 (BHS has same rim) as a stronger rim over either of those other two rims, and from what I've seen I tend to agree.

As far as rim width goes, you wouldn't have any issue with a 23-24mm wide rim + 28mm tire. No need to go wider unless you are setting up a pair of TT wheels with bulbous shaped rims.
The price is definitely right on the Kinlin's. I've had no experience with any of these rims - I've run Mavic's for many years (still have them on the MTB) and Campy Eurus on my road bike for the last 8 years or so. Then Rolfs on the Tandem for the last 10. So I'm open to suggestion. One of the things I like about the HED's (and I was leaning towards those) is they are a disc specific rim and have no braking surface - not a big deal but was one of the things I liked about them.
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Old 07-15-14, 12:20 AM   #7
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If it is width, 32 spoke holes, and disc specific rims that you seek, these wheels on a just-delivered carbon Landshark may be of interest. The rims are ENVE 29 XC (cyclocross) with a width of 24 mm. By way of comparison, the widths of the ENVE 6.7 SES and 65 classic are 24 and 22 mm, respectively. Note that ENVE's has a patent for molded in spoke holes, which is of interest only if you have ever heard of tandem rim problems at the spoke holes.
  • Depth....31 mm
  • Width.......24 mm
  • Hole Count....28,32
  • Weight: Rim Only....382 gms





Wheelbuilder has it that the Pacenti SL23 has at most 28 spokes. Would you have 4 more holes drilled?
  • Weight- 450 grams per rim
  • External Width- 24mm
  • Depth- 26.2mm
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Old 07-15-14, 09:07 AM   #8
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^^^ Both Fairwheel and BikeHubStore have the Pacenti SL23 with 32h, $104. ENVE 29XC is $899.
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Old 07-15-14, 09:19 AM   #9
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If it is width, 32 spoke holes, and disc specific rims that you seek, these wheels on a just-delivered carbon Landshark may be of interest. The rims are ENVE 29 XC (cyclocross) with a width of 24 mm. By way of comparison, the widths of the ENVE 6.7 SES and 65 classic are 24 and 22 mm, respectively. Note that ENVE's has a patent for molded in spoke holes, which is of interest only if you have ever heard of tandem rim problems at the spoke holes.
  • Depth....31 mm
  • Width.......24 mm
  • Hole Count....28,32
  • Weight: Rim Only....382 gms





Wheelbuilder has it that the Pacenti SL23 has at most 28 spokes. Would you have 4 more holes drilled?
  • Weight- 450 grams per rim
  • External Width- 24mm
  • Depth- 26.2mm
That is a sweet looking ride!
Do you know what fork they are using? Is it an Enve? Road or CX?
Also, I can't tell from the pics, but is that hydraulic disc? Di2?

Maybe there is another post I just missed, but interested to hear about that bike. I don't want to hyjack - possibly for another thread...
Thanks!
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Old 07-15-14, 10:53 AM   #10
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^^^ Both Fairwheel and BikeHubStore have the Pacenti SL23 with 32h, $104. ENVE 29XC is $899.
Yup as do a couple other places. I can get a full set of Kinlin based wheels for the price of one Enve rim. Would LOVE to try them someday - but WAY out of my current budget.
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Old 07-15-14, 09:33 PM   #11
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That is a sweet looking ride!
Do you know what fork they are using? Is it an Enve? Road or CX?
Also, I can't tell from the pics, but is that hydraulic disc? Di2?

Maybe there is another post I just missed, but interested to hear about that bike. I don't want to hyjack - possibly for another thread...
Thanks!
Correct - it is an Enve CX fork
The brakes are the new Ultegra Di2 785 - works really well
Chris
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Old 07-15-14, 10:53 PM   #12
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Correct - it is an Enve CX fork
The brakes are the new Ultegra Di2 785 - works really well
Chris
Dan
I got your private message - but I do not have enough posts to reply
It is a new tandem, so experience is limited. I did ride down a mile descent at 10 deg+ - no issues
The guy who helped build the tandem has contacts within Shimano and he mentioned they had tested the brakes with the chosen disc.
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Old 07-16-14, 12:01 AM   #13
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Yup as do a couple other places. I can get a full set of Kinlin based wheels for the price of one Enve rim. Would LOVE to try them someday - but WAY out of my current budget.
Obviously, ENVE rims are expensive. I do not think, however, they are extravagant. Especially compared to Rolfs.
  • A Rolf tandem disc wheelset is $1179.
  • The Rolf thread has many tales of breakage. Thus the Rolf owner usually needs a more robust wheelset and saves the Rolfs for some occasions.
  • The wheelsets at Tandems East range from $500 up. Its $550 for a Wheelsmith 40-spoke with Mavic rims.
  • Two wheelsets means one is stored, transported, etc. A second cassette. Two more tires, tubes. All not free.
  • There are tales on the Rolf thread of ruined rides, even ruined European tours. European tours are expensive. Do you take the Rolfs? You don't want to ruin the trip, but you don't want your iconic photo on Alpe d'Huez to be with 40-spoke wheels, either.

Wheels are a prominent weak link on a tandem. With aluminum, as the wheel is made lighter it tends to be less reliable. Wheel breakage is very disruptive, which means costly. There are costs to protecting yourself from the risk of wheel breakage. The way out of this conundrum is through stronger material in the rims, which are lighter but resist breakage. That means carbon. Generic carbon rims can be relatively inexpensive, but there isn't the confidence in them. ENVE's with their molded in spoke holes (and excellent heat management for those with front calipers) are especially attractive in comparison to aluminum. Lighter, stiffer, stronger, more reliable, great warranty support, more aero.

If they weren't expensive, everyone would have them. However, I think we've shown that they are hardly more expensive than a high-end aluminum wheel that is so unreliable that it requires a second wheelset.
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Old 07-16-14, 09:28 AM   #14
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Sure a high zoot carbon rim can be "justified" against inferior or much less performance oriented products. However his point is still valid... you can build a full set of very good quality and fairly lightweight wheels for the price of one Enve rim, plus use rim brakes on the tandem (if desired) without any issue unlike any full carbon rim which you would only want to use disc brakes if doing any descending. It isn't just about the cost, but about intended use too.
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Old 07-16-14, 09:37 AM   #15
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Obviously, ENVE rims are expensive. I do not think, however, they are extravagant. Especially compared to Rolfs.

Wheels are a prominent weak link on a tandem. With aluminum, as the wheel is made lighter it tends to be less reliable. Wheel breakage is very disruptive, which means costly. There are costs to protecting yourself from the risk of wheel breakage. The way out of this conundrum is through stronger material in the rims, which are lighter but resist breakage. That means carbon. Generic carbon rims can be relatively inexpensive, but there isn't the confidence in them. ENVE's with their molded in spoke holes (and excellent heat management for those with front calipers) are especially attractive in comparison to aluminum. Lighter, stiffer, stronger, more reliable, great warranty support, more aero.

If they weren't expensive, everyone would have them. However, I think we've shown that they are hardly more expensive than a high-end aluminum wheel that is so unreliable that it requires a second wheelset.
I paid $1099 for my disc Rolfs back in 2011. They were pretty much problem free until the recent episode. My biggest problem is I couldn't just buy a new rim and fix the problem. I HAVE to send them to Rolf for a rebuild. Which is why I want to go to a set with a standard rim and spoke which can be purchased anywhere and I can fix myself.

I priced out the Enve's complete with hubs and spokes etc. the same as the other rims I'm considering from the same place - $2,380 for the set. How is less than half the cost almost as expensive? HED's would be around $1025 and the Kinlins just under $900. The funny thing is - the HED's weigh in at 1,727 grams and the ENVE's 1,787. In part because I built up the HED's with X-rays and alloy nipples and that option wasn't available for the ENVE's which required brass nipples and regular DB spokes - but it had the 135mm rear WI hub because the configurator I was using didn't have the 145 which I need. So it's a pretty fair comparison.
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Old 07-16-14, 11:09 AM   #16
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Basically wheels with Enve rims will more than twice as much as a good set of custom aluminum wheels while weighing about the same, limiting rim braking and delivering some aero benefit. Do they deliver enough benefit to justify the price? What is worth it to some is not to others. Value judgments are in the eye of the cash holder.
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Old 07-16-14, 11:58 AM   #17
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OH, but I do love that cool carbon wheel sound
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Old 07-16-14, 12:07 PM   #18
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Basically wheels with Enve rims will more than twice as much as a good set of custom aluminum wheels while weighing about the same, limiting rim braking and delivering some aero benefit. Do they deliver enough benefit to justify the price? What is worth it to some is not to others. Value judgments are in the eye of the cash holder.
I'm often on the slow side to embrace new tech - CF wheels is one of the things I'm still not so sure about. If I had unlimited funds I think I'd be more apt to try them out - and more than likely on my single bike first.
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Old 07-16-14, 12:26 PM   #19
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I paid $1099 for my disc Rolfs back in 2011. They were pretty much problem free until the recent episode. My biggest problem is I couldn't just buy a new rim and fix the problem. I HAVE to send them to Rolf for a rebuild. Which is why I want to go to a set with a standard rim and spoke which can be purchased anywhere and I can fix myself.

I priced out the Enve's complete with hubs and spokes etc. the same as the other rims I'm considering from the same place - $2,380 for the set. How is less than half the cost almost as expensive? HED's would be around $1025 and the Kinlins just under $900.
I think I mentioned something in my post about the practice of Rolf wheelset users ($1175) having to purchase and equip a second, more reliable wheelset ($550).

Maybe the HED's or Kinlin's will be so reliable as to be used every day, all conditions, no problems. No spoke breakage at the most inopportune time. If so, great. Tandem wheelset issues definitively solved for all time.

Because a redundant wheelset isn't particularly inexpensive, and require require tubes/tires ($100), a cassette ($100), a 1-2 rotors ($75), a bag ($50), etc. You've got to store it, transport it, switch it out, etc. That inconvenience is a cost, too.

If we look at a European tour, it would be costly to transport the extra wheelset, or costly to ruin the trip with wheel problems for lack of a back-up wheelset. The unreliable wheelset becomes the horseshoe nail, for want of which the kingdom was lost. Its all got to factor.
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Old 07-16-14, 12:32 PM   #20
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I think I mentioned something in my post about the practice of Rolf wheelset users ($1175) having to purchase and equip a second, more reliable wheelset ($550).

Maybe the HED's or Kinlin's will be so reliable as to be used every day, all conditions, no problems. No spoke breakage at the most inopportune time. If so, great. Tandem wheelset issues definitively solved for all time.

Because a redundant wheelset isn't particularly inexpensive, and require require tubes/tires ($100), a cassette ($100), a 1-2 rotors ($75), a bag ($50), etc. You've got to store it, transport it, switch it out, etc. That inconvenience is a cost, too.

If we look at a European tour, it would be costly to transport the extra wheelset, or costly to ruin the trip with wheel problems for lack of a back-up wheelset. The unreliable wheelset becomes the horseshoe nail, for want of which the kingdom was lost. Its all got to factor.
But - you are assuming that the Enve's will somehow be more reliable and won't have any issues. That MAY be the case - but as with anything - time will tell. Things fail - and yes while Rolf's have not been the most reliable wheels - the bottom line is that at least there is a history on them on a Tandem.
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Old 07-16-14, 01:37 PM   #21
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Has anyone posted a review of the carbon Rolfs?
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Old 07-16-14, 03:36 PM   #22
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OH, but I do love that cool carbon wheel sound
Different strokes for different folks. We like silent wheels and don't like riding in groups with more and more noise making carbon wheels. Other than notifying the world that the owner has high tech high dollar wheels how does the sound help?

(PS we don't like riding in a group with someone with a radio on their bike either).

We like it quite...well heavy breathing and tires lightly singing are ok.
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Old 07-16-14, 09:52 PM   #23
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Dan
I got your private message - but I do not have enough posts to reply
It is a new tandem, so experience is limited. I did ride down a mile descent at 10 deg+ - no issues
The guy who helped build the tandem has contacts within Shimano and he mentioned they had tested the brakes with the chosen disc.
Did Shimano know that these brakes were going on a tandem?
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Old 07-16-14, 09:57 PM   #24
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no, but they were using 300lb+ riders from what I was told - with no issues
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Old 07-18-14, 05:19 PM   #25
joe@vwvortex
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vacaville, CA
Bikes: Co-Motion Speedster Tandem, S-works 29r, Specialized Tarmac SL4
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Ordered the wheels today from prowheelbuilder.com - $810 shipped to my door. Opted to go with db spokes instead of the x-rays due to our team weight - with Sapim Strongs for the rear wheel. Wound up at 1,925 grams for the set. A bit heavier than originally planned but compared to the Rolfs which are currently listed at 1,885 not a big difference. I can live with the 40 gram increase in weight in exchange hopefully for a bit more durability and the ability to lace up a new rim myself if something happens.

Front Hub
WHITE INDUSTRIES MI6 DISK BLACK FRONT HUB
|Drillings 32
|Axle Width QR 100mm
Front Lacing Pattern
Lacing: Three Cross
Front Nipple
SAPIM POLYAX 14MM 14 GAUGE BLACK ALLOY NIPPLE
Front Rim
KINLIN XC279 FRONT 700C BLACK RIM
|Drillings 32
|Size 700c / 29er
Front Spoke
SAPIM RACE J BEND BLACK SPOKES 2 x 1.8 x 2

Wheel Build Weight
878.184

Rear Wheel
Rear Hub
WHITE INDUSTRIES MI6 TANDEM DISK BLACK REAR HUB
|Drillings 32
|Axle Width QR 145mm
|Ti Campy 9,10 or 11spd
Rear Lacing Pattern
Lacing: Three Cross
Rear Nipple
SAPIM POLYAX 14MM 14 GAUGE BLACK ALLOY NIPPLE
Rear Rim
KINLIN XC279 REAR 700C BLACK RIM
|Drillings 32
|Size 700c / 29er
Rear Spoke
SAPIM STRONG J BEND BLACK SPOKES 2 x 2.3
Wheel Build Weight
1047.184
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