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  1. #1
    Senior Member chojn1's Avatar
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    Carbon tandem wheelset questions.

    I am exploring the idea of building another tandem wheelset.
    The ENVE SES 6.7 is an interesting possibility, but the front rim only comes with 20 holes and the rear rim with 24 holes. The White Industries MI6 tandem hubs do not have the same hole count. Can I use a front hub with a 40 hole count and a rear hub with a 48 hole count utilizing half the holes?

    Also, where can I find an 11 speed hub?
    If I build a 10 speed wheelset now, how difficult would it be to upgrade to an 11 speed later?
    Thanks,
    CJ

  2. #2
    PMK
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    Yes, it will work and save weight.

    To prevent confusion, mark the holes with bright crayon to lace it easier.

    PK
    2006 Co-Motion Roadster, flat bars, discs and carbon fibre fork, size 22 / 19
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    W.I. M 16 11 speed rear hub will come with a spacer to use as needed for a 10 speed cassette, just remove for use as a 11 speed set up. Also you need to address what rear spacing you plan to use.

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    Senior Member chojn1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Yes, it will work and save weight.

    To prevent confusion, mark the holes with bright crayon to lace it easier.

    PK
    Thanks PK,
    I thought so but was worried that lacing the spokes this way would significantly weaken the hubs. The stress on the hub as a whole should be unchanged, but the stress on the individual holes would double. We're a relatively light team at 250lb and not that powerful; the WI MI6s are pretty stout, so I think it should be OK.
    CJ

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    Senior Member chojn1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad1 View Post
    W.I. M 16 11 speed rear hub will come with a spacer to use as needed for a 10 speed cassette, just remove for use as a 11 speed set up. Also you need to address what rear spacing you plan to use.
    Bad,
    We are using QR145 rear spacing with disc brakes. Part of the reason for the new wheelset is to move to 11 speed. Backward compatibility is nice, but once I install an 11 speed drivetrain, I doubt if I'll need that 10 speed spacer.

    I did notice from your previous posts, that you are using that 11 speed hub. Where is your source? Mine (Prowheelbuilder) insisted that it does not exist. They contacted WI and relayed that there are no plans in the immediate future for such a hub.

    Thanks,
    CJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by chojn1 View Post
    Bad,
    We are using QR145 rear spacing with disc brakes. Part of the reason for the new wheelset is to move to 11 speed. Backward compatibility is nice, but once I install an 11 speed drivetrain, I doubt if I'll need that 10 speed spacer.

    I did notice from your previous posts, that you are using that 11 speed hub. Where is your source? Mine (Prowheelbuilder) insisted that it does not exist. They contacted WI and relayed that there are no plans in the immediate future for such a hub.

    Thanks,
    CJ
    W.I. Should be able to configure the M16 disc rear hubs to a 145 spacing, which they do for the M15 rear hub,
    40/48 hole spoke count, have your LBS contact to see if they'll provide this service on the M16 QR disc 135 mm.

    White Industries - Disc Brake Rear Hubs

  7. #7
    Clipless in Coeur d'Alene twocicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad1 View Post
    W.I. Should be able to configure the M16 disc rear hubs to a 145 spacing, which they do for the M15 rear hub,
    40/48 hole spoke count, have your LBS contact to see if they'll provide this service on the M16 QR disc 135 mm.

    White Industries - Disc Brake Rear Hubs
    WI will not provide a Mi6 145mm hub with 11spd - at least in the near future - per direct call to them. This info has been posted repeatedly. The 135mm Mi5 has no disc mount, whereas Mi6 does. The disc mount requires a certain offset from the dropout, which is why they cannot simply space out their 135mm CX-11spd-Disc to a 145mm. The existing Mi6 flanges do not provide sufficient room for a wider 11spd freehub shell - at least according to WI. I suspect a little machining on a 11spd shell might (move it closer to the spokes) might make it fit, but WI won't do that for you.
    Last edited by twocicle; 07-30-14 at 10:35 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member chojn1's Avatar
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    Bad,
    MI6 are readily available with QR130, QR135, Thru 12 135&142, and QR145 spacing. All with disc brake. The problem is finding one with an 11 speed hub.
    Another option I thought about was to use a campy 11 speed hub which is available with a campy cassette. I just don't know how the shifting performance will be affected with mixed cassette/rear derailleur components.

    CJ

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    Senior Member chojn1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    WI will not provide a Mi6 145mm hub with 11spd - at least in the near future - per direct call to them. This info has been posted repeatedly. The 135mm Mi5 has no disc mount, whereas Mi6 does. The disc mount requires a certain offset from the dropout, which is why they cannot simply space out their 135mm CX-11spd-Disc to a 145mm. The existing Mi6 flanges do not provide sufficient room for a wider 11spd freehub shell - at least according to WI. I suspect a little machining on a 11spd shell might (move it closer to the spokes) might make it fit, but WI won't do that for you.
    Any one attempted this mod? Love see examples before I try it out on a new wheel.

    Spinergy has an 11 speed hub for the TX2. The switch is relatively easy to do per Ric at HOT. But, I am looking for something a little different on the next wheelset.
    CJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by chojn1 View Post
    Another option I thought about was to use a campy 11 speed hub which is available with a campy cassette. I just don't know how the shifting performance will be affected with mixed cassette/rear derailleur components.

    CJ
    Lennard Zinn has stated on Velonews several times that the cassette spacing is identical and therefore they are interchangeable.

  11. #11
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
    WI will not provide a Mi6 145mm hub with 11spd - at least in the near future - per direct call to them. This info has been posted repeatedly. The 135mm Mi5 has no disc mount, whereas Mi6 does. The disc mount requires a certain offset from the dropout, which is why they cannot simply space out their 135mm CX-11spd-Disc to a 145mm. The existing Mi6 flanges do not provide sufficient room for a wider 11spd freehub shell - at least according to WI. I suspect a little machining on a 11spd shell might (move it closer to the spokes) might make it fit, but WI won't do that for you.
    Before machining the 1mm or so from the the freehub, and worrying about the splines on the freehub, I suggest taking the 11 speed cassette and grinding 1mm off the flat inboard side of the aluminum carrier. This would move the cassette closer to the spokes. Check chain to spoke distance. Hopefully with a true 145mm spaced hub the spoke angle is enough to leave more room than a 130mm or 135mm hub and it will work. If it does not work then you or someone else can still use the cassette with a 1mm spacer. Worst case you loose the cost a a Shimano cassette.

  12. #12
    Senior Member chojn1's Avatar
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    I just got the following email from Prowheelbuilder:

    "I called White industry yesterday and the rep told me that there was not going to be an 11 speed option for awhile released then I spoke with the tech department today and they told me that they are going to release a Mi6 145 tandem hub in black and silver option with 11 speed and that it will not be avail. until the end of Sept. He did not have the pricing on it as of yet but he did explain to me that the driver body will be ti so there is going to be an increase in cost compared to the already made Mi6 hub for tandem now. It will be offered in a 28,32,36,40 hole options. He also said I can put one on back order for the new releasing but again was not sure of the cost yet. Keep in mind the release date is not solid as of yet because they can push it back if they have any production problems."

    Looks like my wheels will have to wait until September. Too bad, I was hoping to have new wheels for my next trip to Colorado.
    CJ

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    But no 48h so how you going to lace to a 24h rim? I have machined the back of a 11-32 11sp cluster so that it fits on a 10sp freewheel. Only a few minutes work. Just need to check for clearance to spokes as has been mentioned.
    You could also use a 135 hub with a 10mm spacer on the left hand side. Then either move calliper in 10mm or add 10mm spacer behind disc.

  14. #14
    Senior Member chojn1's Avatar
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    Wayne & Dean,
    That is a great idea. But I don't have access to a CNC machine. The best tool I have for the job would be a Dremmel. And my hands are not steady enough to get a consistent 1.8mm depth through the entire rim of the spider/carrier. What did you use for your cassette mod?
    And, no, I still haven't figure out how to solve the new hole count problem.
    CJ

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    Any engineering workshop could do it in a few minutes with a lathe. No fancy CNC required.

  16. #16
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chojn1 View Post
    I am exploring the idea of building another tandem wheelset.
    The ENVE SES 6.7 is an interesting possibility, but the front rim only comes with 20 holes and the rear rim with 24 holes.
    The 24 hole limitation is a problem with the SES.

    • Cannondale has ordered a slew of SES 3.4 rims for OEM with 28 holes [on the SuperSix EVO Black] but these are not available for purchase. Maybe Prowheelbuilder can finagle sourcing these.
    • The ENVE 29 XC Clincher is wider and is available in 32 holes.
    • The Classic 65 is lighter and cheaper than the SES, has 28 holes, and has been great for us.
    Last edited by Ritterview; 07-30-14 at 07:36 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chojn1 View Post
    Wayne & Dean,
    That is a great idea. But I don't have access to a CNC machine. The best tool I have for the job would be a Dremmel. And my hands are not steady enough to get a consistent 1.8mm depth through the entire rim of the spider/carrier. What did you use for your cassette mod?
    And, no, I still haven't figure out how to solve the new hole count problem.
    CJ
    It seems to me that the soft aluminum carrier could be ground with a dremmel if it were done slowly and checked with a gauge often. Occasional deeper cuts would not effect the alignment of the cassette as long as a adequate number of proper depth sections are a spaced around the circumference of the carrier to allow proper tightening of the log ring. Shallower cuts would need to be avoided.

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