Options for 11-speed cassettes on tandems - hubs and cassettes
#1
Likes to Ride Far
Thread Starter
Options for 11-speed cassettes on tandems - hubs and cassettes
It would be nice to upgrade the transmission on our tandem with an 11-speed cassette, possibly even Di2 like I have on my single bike that I really like. The problem is finding a 145mm tandem rear hub that can take an 11-speed cassette but that doesn't cost several hundred US$, or finding an 11-speed cassette that can fit on our 10-speed hub.
Our current hub is a Shimano model, so there is no chance of changing the freehub body for an 11-speed version. I've seen that the top-end American hub manufacturers (Chris King, White Industries, and Phil Wood) all offer an 11-speed Shimano tandem rear hub, but the prices are US$300 to $600. Since we live in Europe, I don't really care if something is made in the US or in Taiwan (or in Europe actually, it's all the same to me). Isn't there an Asian option at half the price? I couldn't find one. I guess it's because these are not really a mass-production item.
I've read conflicting info about whether the DT Swiss 540 tandem hub has an 11-speed compatible Shimano body. Can anyone confirm whether this is correct? I know that it can take a Campagnolo 11-speed body, but that limits cassette range to Campy's new 12-30 11-speed cassette, which is much narrower than what you can get with Shimano 10-speed cassette, so it wouldn't be worth taking a DT Swiss hub if it can only use a Shimano-10 or Campy-11 body. In addition, I'm not a big fan of DT Swiss hubs due to the difficulty involved in disassembling them, but it would be nice to know whether or not it is an option. EDIT: The confusion was caused by DT Swiss listing the hub as being Shimano MTB 9/10/11 speed compatible, which means that's it's a regular Shimano 10-speed body, and so it can take an XTR 11-speed cassette but cannot take any road 11-speed cassettes (except Edco, see below).
I've modified 10-speed freehub bodies on several single-bike Shimano hubs that I own (an XT, Ultegra, and a Dura Ace) to take 11-speed cassettes by filing 1.5mm from the back of the splines (as long as you're using a 28- or 32-tooth cassette then there is no concern about the cog, chain, or derailleur ending up too close to the spokes IME), but there is no space to do this on the Shimano tandem hub that we have.
I have found a couple of options for putting 11-speed cassettes on Shimano 10-speed bodies. The new XTR 11-speed 11-40 cassette is one such option, and I believe that this may work with our current X-9 10-speed rear derailleur if I replace the shifter with a SRAM 11-speed road model, so this could be the cheapest way to go 11-speed. Also, if I switched the first few cogs on the XTR 11-40 with those from a 105 12-25 11-speed cassette then we could have a pretty nicely-spaced 12-40 cassette. However, I'm not 100% sure about getting the shifting to work, so it could be an expensive failed experiment. I may wait until late 2015 when the XT version of this cassette inevitably gets released for half the XTR price since we have no need for the weight-saving of the expensive titanium cogs.
Edco are also offering 11-speed cassettes that fit on Shimano 10-speed bodies, see here. Their website only lists up to 11-28 sizes, but I've seen an 11-32 listed on an order form that they sent to the bike shop where I work. However, I've never found shifting to be that good on cassettes from small brands like that, plus their 11-32 11-speed cassette still has the dreaded 19-tooth to 22-tooth jump/gap between cogs, like so many 10- and 11-speed SRAM cassettes also have, which I absolutely hate (it's a 15.8% change in cadence!). This jump is right in the middle of the cassette and is so unnecessary when you have 11 cogs (Shimano's 10- and 11-speed 11-32 cassettes use the far better 18-20-22 spacing instead, and put the slightly larger jumps at the less-used ends of the cassette). I've vowed never to use a cassette with that spacing again, so the Edco option is out for me.
Looking at wide-range 11-speed cassettes, SRAM have announced that they are launching an 11-36 11-speed cassette to go with their 1x11 cyclocross group, and IRD now offer 11 or 12 to 34 or 36 tooth 11-speed Shimano cassettes, but all of those appear to require an 11-speed Shimano freehub body. Plus, I've found IRD's 10-speed cassettes to shift far worse than the Shimano equivalent, so I'm betting that the same is true for their 11-speed stuff.
Does anyone else have more info/ideas of what other options there are? I know that the easiest thing would be to just buy one of the fancy US-produced hubs, but I'd like to try to find another solution if possible. Keeping our current Shimano hub would be ideal becuase I prefer to use loose-ball, adjustable hubs whenever possible.
BTW, there is one old BF thread on this topic here, but I decided to make a new thread since the info in the old one is a bit out of date and I've made this is a bit more general by including options with special cassettes.
Our current hub is a Shimano model, so there is no chance of changing the freehub body for an 11-speed version. I've seen that the top-end American hub manufacturers (Chris King, White Industries, and Phil Wood) all offer an 11-speed Shimano tandem rear hub, but the prices are US$300 to $600. Since we live in Europe, I don't really care if something is made in the US or in Taiwan (or in Europe actually, it's all the same to me). Isn't there an Asian option at half the price? I couldn't find one. I guess it's because these are not really a mass-production item.
I've read conflicting info about whether the DT Swiss 540 tandem hub has an 11-speed compatible Shimano body. Can anyone confirm whether this is correct? I know that it can take a Campagnolo 11-speed body, but that limits cassette range to Campy's new 12-30 11-speed cassette, which is much narrower than what you can get with Shimano 10-speed cassette, so it wouldn't be worth taking a DT Swiss hub if it can only use a Shimano-10 or Campy-11 body. In addition, I'm not a big fan of DT Swiss hubs due to the difficulty involved in disassembling them, but it would be nice to know whether or not it is an option. EDIT: The confusion was caused by DT Swiss listing the hub as being Shimano MTB 9/10/11 speed compatible, which means that's it's a regular Shimano 10-speed body, and so it can take an XTR 11-speed cassette but cannot take any road 11-speed cassettes (except Edco, see below).
I've modified 10-speed freehub bodies on several single-bike Shimano hubs that I own (an XT, Ultegra, and a Dura Ace) to take 11-speed cassettes by filing 1.5mm from the back of the splines (as long as you're using a 28- or 32-tooth cassette then there is no concern about the cog, chain, or derailleur ending up too close to the spokes IME), but there is no space to do this on the Shimano tandem hub that we have.
I have found a couple of options for putting 11-speed cassettes on Shimano 10-speed bodies. The new XTR 11-speed 11-40 cassette is one such option, and I believe that this may work with our current X-9 10-speed rear derailleur if I replace the shifter with a SRAM 11-speed road model, so this could be the cheapest way to go 11-speed. Also, if I switched the first few cogs on the XTR 11-40 with those from a 105 12-25 11-speed cassette then we could have a pretty nicely-spaced 12-40 cassette. However, I'm not 100% sure about getting the shifting to work, so it could be an expensive failed experiment. I may wait until late 2015 when the XT version of this cassette inevitably gets released for half the XTR price since we have no need for the weight-saving of the expensive titanium cogs.
Edco are also offering 11-speed cassettes that fit on Shimano 10-speed bodies, see here. Their website only lists up to 11-28 sizes, but I've seen an 11-32 listed on an order form that they sent to the bike shop where I work. However, I've never found shifting to be that good on cassettes from small brands like that, plus their 11-32 11-speed cassette still has the dreaded 19-tooth to 22-tooth jump/gap between cogs, like so many 10- and 11-speed SRAM cassettes also have, which I absolutely hate (it's a 15.8% change in cadence!). This jump is right in the middle of the cassette and is so unnecessary when you have 11 cogs (Shimano's 10- and 11-speed 11-32 cassettes use the far better 18-20-22 spacing instead, and put the slightly larger jumps at the less-used ends of the cassette). I've vowed never to use a cassette with that spacing again, so the Edco option is out for me.
Looking at wide-range 11-speed cassettes, SRAM have announced that they are launching an 11-36 11-speed cassette to go with their 1x11 cyclocross group, and IRD now offer 11 or 12 to 34 or 36 tooth 11-speed Shimano cassettes, but all of those appear to require an 11-speed Shimano freehub body. Plus, I've found IRD's 10-speed cassettes to shift far worse than the Shimano equivalent, so I'm betting that the same is true for their 11-speed stuff.
Does anyone else have more info/ideas of what other options there are? I know that the easiest thing would be to just buy one of the fancy US-produced hubs, but I'd like to try to find another solution if possible. Keeping our current Shimano hub would be ideal becuase I prefer to use loose-ball, adjustable hubs whenever possible.
BTW, there is one old BF thread on this topic here, but I decided to make a new thread since the info in the old one is a bit out of date and I've made this is a bit more general by including options with special cassettes.
Last edited by Chris_W; 12-25-14 at 01:30 AM.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,600
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18320 Post(s)
Liked 4,489 Times
in
3,338 Posts
What hub are you running? FH-HF08? Many of the 10s freehub bodies should be interchangeable, but I see the problem with the 11s freehub body. I've actually been looking for old style Shimano freehub compatibility, and have been dismayed that so many of the new hubs are dropping the old style freehubs, and Shimano seems to be quickly dropping the 10s product lines, at least with their high-end offerings.
I have an XTR-M9000 on order, but it is backordered until January, I think. When it comes in I can take any measurements you need.
I have an XTR-M9000 on order, but it is backordered until January, I think. When it comes in I can take any measurements you need.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,853
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1067 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 259 Times
in
153 Posts
I put the cassette in a lathe and machine 1.5mm from the back to make it fit a 10sp free hub. It is only a 5 min job so if you don't have a lathe I am sure any machine shop could do it for you for only a few dollars.
#4
Likes to Ride Far
Thread Starter
Thanks Dean, I really like your idea.
I've been so focused on modifying freehub bodies on other wheels to make them work with 11 speed cassettes that I hadn't really considered modifying the cassette to work with an unmodified hub. There appears to be loads of extra material on the back of the Ultegra cassette spider, so taking 1.5mm off shouldn't be a problem. I know of a shop nearby that does small jobs like that, so I'll give them a try.
I've been so focused on modifying freehub bodies on other wheels to make them work with 11 speed cassettes that I hadn't really considered modifying the cassette to work with an unmodified hub. There appears to be loads of extra material on the back of the Ultegra cassette spider, so taking 1.5mm off shouldn't be a problem. I know of a shop nearby that does small jobs like that, so I'll give them a try.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lahaina,HI Breckenridge, CO
Posts: 70
Bikes: Santana Beyond & Stylus. Santa Cruz V10, Nomad, Bronson, & 5010. Fuji Transonic, Kestrel Talon, Hongfu rigid 650b, some beach cruisers
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
^I've seen this done several times. Pay attention to where material must be removed from the cassette to clear the hub flange and it works perfectly. It can even be done with a dremel.
#7
Likes to Ride Far
Thread Starter
We tried a Rohloff on the tandem for several rides a couple of years ago (about 500 km). It didn't shift anywhere near as well when under load as a derailleur system does. We like to have our cranks 90 degrees out of phase to make the power input smoother when climbing, so there is no dead-spot in our pedaling cycle in which shifting on the Rohloff would be easier. I therefore had to ask the stoker to ease off every time we wanted to shift while going uphill, which I don't need to do with our derailleur setup (I only need to do this for front shifts), doing so was not only annoying but was causing us to lose quite a bit of momentum every time.
In addition, getting tighter spacing of the gears is the main reason for wanting to switch to an 11-speed cassette; using a Rohloff would take us in the opposite direction because the gear spacing on the Rohloff is not at all ideal for road use. The 13.6% difference between each gear is right at the edge of what I'm comfortable with on a road bike (tandem or single). I can tolerate having one or two jumps like that in a cassette, but prefer most to be in the more ideal 10-12% range. A road version of the Rohloff hub would have 12% differences between the 14 gears, giving a range of 435% (the 526% range on the Rohloff is unnecessary on the road).
Despite all of these criticisms of using a Rohloff on a road tandem, I'm certainly not a Rohloff hater. Having taken the Rohloff off of the tandem, I put it on a hardtail 29er MTB that I wanted to build for myself. For that purpose (a single-bike MTB), the Rohloff is the best transmission available - I love the reliability and (external) simplicity. The gearing range and spacing is very appropriate for a MTB, and I can make it shift very smoothly by timing the shifts to coincide with the dead spot of my pedaling or I can ease off slightly if needed. Once my wife road my MTB, she wanted a similar setup, so we now have two hardtail 29ers with Rohloffs (they are our only MTBs, we are roadies at heart) and both love them. We'd never consider putting a Rohloff on the tandem again, but I'm glad that we tried it so that we know the pro's, con's, and limitations. YMMV.
In addition, getting tighter spacing of the gears is the main reason for wanting to switch to an 11-speed cassette; using a Rohloff would take us in the opposite direction because the gear spacing on the Rohloff is not at all ideal for road use. The 13.6% difference between each gear is right at the edge of what I'm comfortable with on a road bike (tandem or single). I can tolerate having one or two jumps like that in a cassette, but prefer most to be in the more ideal 10-12% range. A road version of the Rohloff hub would have 12% differences between the 14 gears, giving a range of 435% (the 526% range on the Rohloff is unnecessary on the road).
Despite all of these criticisms of using a Rohloff on a road tandem, I'm certainly not a Rohloff hater. Having taken the Rohloff off of the tandem, I put it on a hardtail 29er MTB that I wanted to build for myself. For that purpose (a single-bike MTB), the Rohloff is the best transmission available - I love the reliability and (external) simplicity. The gearing range and spacing is very appropriate for a MTB, and I can make it shift very smoothly by timing the shifts to coincide with the dead spot of my pedaling or I can ease off slightly if needed. Once my wife road my MTB, she wanted a similar setup, so we now have two hardtail 29ers with Rohloffs (they are our only MTBs, we are roadies at heart) and both love them. We'd never consider putting a Rohloff on the tandem again, but I'm glad that we tried it so that we know the pro's, con's, and limitations. YMMV.
Last edited by Chris_W; 12-23-14 at 05:02 PM.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lahaina,HI Breckenridge, CO
Posts: 70
Bikes: Santana Beyond & Stylus. Santa Cruz V10, Nomad, Bronson, & 5010. Fuji Transonic, Kestrel Talon, Hongfu rigid 650b, some beach cruisers
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
^It's gotta be mentioned that shifting under load is asking for a broken chain with any derailleur system. The modern systems, especially electric, can do it but you are putting massive side loads on the links. I've also seen bent cassette cogs from shifting under load. If you get practiced with it you can say "shift" and both ease off the power briefly enough to do a clean shift without losing appreciable momentum. Half a pedal stroke is all it takes and it helps if you plan the shift before your cadence gets bogged down.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread but as a mechanic on tandem tours I have seen the carnage and had to explain this many times.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread but as a mechanic on tandem tours I have seen the carnage and had to explain this many times.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,853
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1067 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 259 Times
in
153 Posts
Yes you could use a dremel, just like you could glue your new frame together without using any kind of jig! It would just take much longer and the finished product would be inferior.
#10
Likes to Ride Far
Thread Starter
I can't imagine that using a dremel to allow an 11-speed cassette to fit on a 10-speed hub would cause much of a problem, and the same would be true for any other method that would cause the material to be removed less than perfectly. The edges of the cassette's cog carrier that interface with the splines on the freehub body are the important part where the pedaling loads are transferred from the chain to the hub, and you wouldn't be changing those. The only thing that removing an imperfect amount of material would effect is how well the cassette lockring holds the cassette on, so as long as you tighten that well and check it once in a while then I can't see what problems you would have.
It would certainly be nothing like not using a jig to build a frame, and I expect that there would be no observable or functional difference between this "inferior" method and the "proper" method. There are certainly some things that need to be done precisely and with the correct tool, but I'm not sure that this is one of them.
It would certainly be nothing like not using a jig to build a frame, and I expect that there would be no observable or functional difference between this "inferior" method and the "proper" method. There are certainly some things that need to be done precisely and with the correct tool, but I'm not sure that this is one of them.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,853
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1067 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 259 Times
in
153 Posts
The spline on the cassette is not long enough or machined to a close enough tolerance to hold the sprockets square to the free hub by itself. It relies mainly on the back shoulder which if uneven will cause some side to side run out of the cassette. But as you say it probably isn't critical and will function ok anyway.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 1,971
Bikes: Custom 650B tandem by Bob Brown, 650B tandem converted from Santana Arriva, Santana Noventa, Boulder Bicycle 700C, Gunnar Sport
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
The spline on the cassette is not long enough or machined to a close enough tolerance to hold the sprockets square to the free hub by itself. It relies mainly on the back shoulder which if uneven will cause some side to side run out of the cassette. But as you say it probably isn't critical and will function ok anyway.
#13
Likes to Ride Far
Thread Starter
Token are now also offering 11-speed cassettes that fit on 10-speed bodies. They're currently only offering 11-23, 11-25, and 11-28 cassettes and in a high-tech carbon spider with milled one-piece steel cassette, and so they're really expensive (in the range of US$300), but hopefully a wider range of sizes and options at lower price points will be available in the future. Here's the official product page and a report at BikeRadar.
#14
Newbie
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
rear hub short tandem disk brake and freewheel
Token are now also offering 11-speed cassettes that fit on 10-speed bodies. They're currently only offering 11-23, 11-25, and 11-28 cassettes and in a high-tech carbon spider with milled one-piece steel cassette, and so they're really expensive (in the range of US$300), but hopefully a wider range of sizes and options at lower price points will be available in the future. Here's the official product page and a report at BikeRadar.
hi guys! I'm new on this beautifull forum.
i'm looking for a "rear hub short tandem disk brake and freewheel" because I have a "compact" tandem with many km and I will race in "The Sun Trip 2015 " The Sun Trip The suntrip italian team - Home from milan to astana 8500km.Actually my rear brake has not enaugh brake energy and they heating rim and pneumatic...Any advice?
#15
Likes to Ride Far
Thread Starter
Hi iddimus - Do you need a hub for an 11-speed cassette? If not, then this thread is the wrong place to ask this question. Also, if you want a second brake on your rear wheel then does your frame have the mounting points for a disc brake or a drum brake? Plus, what is the width of your current hub - possibly 145mm or 135mm? You need to give lots more information before anyone can give you helpful advice, and it's possible that this thread is not the correct place to ask your question (you can easily start your own thread for this topic if necessary). I wish you all the best for your trip, it looks interesting.
#16
Newbie
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
[QUOTEI've read conflicting info about whether the DT Swiss 540 tandem hub has an 11-speed compatible Shimano body. Can anyone confirm whether this is correct? I know that it can take a Campagnolo 11-speed body, but that limits cassette range to Campy's new 12-30 11-speed cassette, which is much narrower than what you can get with Shimano 10-speed cassette, so it wouldn't be worth taking a DT Swiss hub if it can only use a Shimano-10 or Campy-11 body. In addition, I'm not a big fan of DT Swiss hubs due to the difficulty involved in disassembling them, but it would be nice to know whether or not it is an option. EDIT: The confusion was caused by DT Swiss listing the hub as being Shimano MTB 9/10/11 speed compatible, which means that's it's a regular Shimano 10-speed body, and so it can take an XTR 11-speed cassette but cannot take any road 11-speed cassettes (except Edco, see below).][/QUOTE]
Are there any other 11 speed cassettes that will work with the my DT 540 hub besides the XTR 11-40? Maybe something a little smaller?
Are there any other 11 speed cassettes that will work with the my DT 540 hub besides the XTR 11-40? Maybe something a little smaller?
#17
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 169
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
8 Posts
It would be nice to upgrade the transmission on our tandem with an 11-speed cassette, possibly even Di2 like I have on my single bike that I really like. The problem is finding a 145mm tandem rear hub that can take an 11-speed cassette but that doesn't cost several hundred US$, or finding an 11-speed cassette that can fit on our 10-speed hub.
Our current hub is a Shimano model, so there is no chance of changing the freehub body for an 11-speed version. I've seen that the top-end American hub manufacturers (Chris King, White Industries, and Phil Wood) all offer an 11-speed Shimano tandem rear hub, but the prices are US$300 to $600. Since we live in Europe, I don't really care if something is made in the US or in Taiwan (or in Europe actually, it's all the same to me). Isn't there an Asian option at half the price? I couldn't find one. I guess it's because these are not really a mass-production item.
Our current hub is a Shimano model, so there is no chance of changing the freehub body for an 11-speed version. I've seen that the top-end American hub manufacturers (Chris King, White Industries, and Phil Wood) all offer an 11-speed Shimano tandem rear hub, but the prices are US$300 to $600. Since we live in Europe, I don't really care if something is made in the US or in Taiwan (or in Europe actually, it's all the same to me). Isn't there an Asian option at half the price? I couldn't find one. I guess it's because these are not really a mass-production item.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
sapporoguy
Tandem Cycling
12
10-24-17 07:25 PM
Bikebuilder
Bicycle Mechanics
17
03-12-13 10:28 AM