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  1. #1
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    East Dallas Veloway

    My commute, for the most part, takes me across North Dallas so I'm not in East Dallas very often. Last night, I had to run to downtown on my way home. I hopped off Columbian and cut over to Santa Fe and WHOA! I accidentally found the Veloway. It's wider than WRT and since it is brand new, much smoother. I stayed on it until the pavement ran out.

    Am I the only cyclist who didn't realize how much progress has been made on this? Very very cool.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

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    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    It is very frustrating, but the local municipalities like to keep their bike routes hidden to make sure nobody uses them. I have found one online map, but it is very awkward to use. So where is this veloway, anyway?

    I remember seeing a map of planned projects which was quite extensive. The trail that currently comes out of Garland by I30 and Beltline is supposed to extend on into Mesquite, for example.
    "be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."

  3. #3
    Tilting with windmills txvintage's Avatar
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    We have bike paths?

    Who knew.

  4. #4
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    I think the planned route is something like this:
    http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=2102935

    I got on right around Henderson, I think and rode it to about Glasgow. I don't know how far they have completed it going back toward downtown.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  5. #5
    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Cool. I think I had crossed that on 78 and didn't know what it was. Where the purple line shows it crossing Winstead and connecting to the White Rock Lake trail, there is a bridge missing there and I didn't realize there was actually an operational trail there, yet. Next time I'm down there, I'll explore. There are pretty decent bike routes from Garland to White Rock Lake, and this looks like as good a way as any to loop on over to downtown.
    "be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."

  6. #6
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    I thought that RR bridge was to be replaced with a MUP bridge to make it easier to get across 78?

  7. #7
    worship satan. johnnytheboy's Avatar
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    eventually, wrl is going to be linked to the katy.
    i think this is part of that.......?
    http://www.pedalroom.com/members/johnnytheboy
    ^pedalroom.

  8. #8
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Yea, the map I posted is where I think it will go, when it is finished. If you look, at the street names, you'll see I was only on it for a few blocks. I ran out of pavement at around Glasgow.

    And yea, the RR bridge that they pulled down last year is where they are going to be putting up the MUP bridge. Not sure when they will get to there.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  9. #9
    worship satan. johnnytheboy's Avatar
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    so are you able to cross over garland rd by white rock since theres no bridge?
    http://www.pedalroom.com/members/johnnytheboy
    ^pedalroom.

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    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Oh, okay, I didn't realize you meant the trail wasn't all there yet.

    Anyway, the trail crosses over Hwy 78 twice. One of those is an underpass where it goes under the road- that's where I had seen a trail (old rail line) but couldn't figure out what it was or how to get to it. Up by WRL, I don't think there's any kind of bridge there. I'll try to look around some when I get a chance.
    "be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."

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    Borracho For Life
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    Actually it goes under 78, near that no-tell motel. Fairly large underpass there.

    There is a thread on the dorba website about it

    http://www.dorba.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42156

    One of my old racing buddies Lord Viper started that thread over there. He rides totally insane miles every week. 300+ on a mountain bike!

  12. #12
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehappyrobot View Post
    so are you able to cross over garland rd by white rock since theres no bridge?
    Not yet. I'm usually a vehicular cyclist, so to cross Garland Rd, I just merge with the traffic and use the left-turn lane.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  13. #13
    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Okay, I went out to see for myself. Now I understand what's going on. Now I understand why Mmach is excited about it, too.

    Let's take this route from the northeast. As you go around White Rock Lake, near that south parking lot, you can see where the future trail goes across Winsted. There is a stub of paved trail here, but not any actual trail beyond the stub. The old railroad bridge is still there across Winsted. Here's looking south across it:



    Over on the other side, the original railroad roadbed/ ballast material is still there, the 2" rocks you see here. This is not a trail, just remains of a railroad. This is just past the bridge over Winsted:



    Where this route comes out across Hwy 78 the first time, the bridge is gone. This is the north end of where the bridge used to be. There's a set of pillars in the median and a similar abutment on the other side of Hwy 78. There' s no obvious way to go through here, other than to just come down Winsted:



    Where the route goes past the south end of Coronado, there's no access from Coronado, all fenced in there.
    Where the route comes back under 78 again (78 is on a bridge over the route), near Shadyside Lane, there's more old railroad route, but no trail as such. On the south side of Hwy 78 is what looks like a trail, and I had spotted it from the bridge. I followed it a little ways south from 78, and it sort of turned into a jeep trail. You are parallelling the old roadbed, though. Here's looking south where the trail looking part turns into a jeep road:



    This is looking south from 78. The trail on the right looks real promising here, although gravel. That's the roadbed on the left. This is maybe 100 yards from the previous shot, right at 78:



    Looking north from the overpass on 78, it looks like this. The "trail" looking part ends at the overpass, so you just have the old roadbed here:



    Now, following this route back north from 78, where it crosses Santa Monica/ W Shore Drive, looking to the northwest, it looks like this:



    Now, coming on up to Glasgow, you find the real trail beginning. This is standing on the real trail, looking back northeast across Glasgow. The construction over there is water lines and stuff, not trail construction. The trail looking parts are either water line construction or the old roadbed:



    And then looking back southwest from Glasgow is the actual trail. Looks to be maybe 10' wide, wider than most of the WRL trails:



    And lastly, the sign showing what's going on. This is on the southwest side of Glasgow. The sign across the road was about the water lines, not a Veloway:



    Summary: From Randall Park at Glasgow and Santa Fe, there's a beautiful trail leading southwest, that is rideable but not necessarily finished. From that point to White Rock Lake, there is old roadbed or gravel in places that would be rideable, preferably with a mountain bike, but not necessarily an established trail. There are no trail signs, for example. The gravel varies from reasonably smooth and fine to very large and rough. The actual easiest way to get from Randall Park to WRL would be to ride on the roads. Santa Fe to W. Shore Drive to White Rock Rd will work, though there may be better routes.
    "be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."

  14. #14
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Wow, Stephen! That's some good re-con work.

    Hopefully, they are improving the water lines and whatnot before laying down the trail on top of it all. I know that when they decided to re-pave Maple Ave, they ripped up and replaced all the old water, sewage and gas lines, before paving over everything. Or that may be just wishful thinking on my part.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  15. #15
    simul justus et peccator pmsummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenH View Post
    It is very frustrating, but the local municipalities like to keep their bike routes hidden to make sure nobody uses them. I have found one online map, but it is very awkward to use. So where is this veloway, anyway?

    I remember seeing a map of planned projects which was quite extensive. The trail that currently comes out of Garland by I30 and Beltline is supposed to extend on into Mesquite, for example.
    Try here for Bike Routes: http://www.dallascityhall.com/pwt/bike_links.html

    Try here for more info on the East Dallas Veloway: http://cycledallas.blogspot.com/2008...it-carson.html

  16. #16
    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Two excellent links. That detailed map, I have never seen before. It shows a copyright a number of years old, is it actually more updated than that?
    "be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."

  17. #17
    simul justus et peccator pmsummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenH View Post
    Two excellent links. That detailed map, I have never seen before. It shows a copyright a number of years old, is it actually more updated than that?
    The base map is from TxDOT. That's probably the copyright you see. The route system part was last updated in 2003.
    Cyclists fare best when they act, and are treated, as the drivers of other vehicles. -- John Forester

  18. #18
    simul justus et peccator pmsummer's Avatar
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    BTW: The East Dallas Veloway will include bike/ped bridges over Haskell and Peak, and over Garland Rd/78.

    The contract for the next phase (from Glasgow to Winstead) should be let for construction this December, with it finishing construction in early 2010.
    Cyclists fare best when they act, and are treated, as the drivers of other vehicles. -- John Forester

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmsummer View Post
    BTW: The East Dallas Veloway will include bike/ped bridges over Haskell and Peak, and over Garland Rd/78.

    The contract for the next phase (from Glasgow to Winstead) should be let for construction this December, with it finishing construction in early 2010.

    That is good news, even 2010 sounds good, thanks.

    Are you 'the' PM Summer?

    If so is there anything you can do to get the bike lane re-installed along Mockingbird going across WRL??
    Where this cyclist was hit: http://www.getwellsoonpaul.blogspot.com/

    I've emailed Mr. Kadane(council member for the area) but he is not too concerned with cycling safety, he just wants to keep the bicycles off the bridge, but that is not going to happen, bicycles use that bridge all the time... Why not make it safer with a bike lane there?

    And... those blue bike route signs are in need of a huge 'face-lift'. There needs to be some education about the routes, most people don't even know they exist, even long time cyclist??? W not paint some bicycles along those routes, alerting motorists that cyclist might be 'sharing' the roads??? Maybe a few PSA's to educate the public, and for people that want to
    commute???

    I guess you know that Bicylcing magazine gave Dallas the worst rating in the U.S. for cycling??
    Help!!!! Dallas needs lots of help.

  20. #20
    simul justus et peccator pmsummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedaljeeps View Post
    That is good news, even 2010 sounds good, thanks.

    Are you 'the' PM Summer?
    No. But the confusion is understandable. He's officially "Paul" Summer. I'm not.

    If so is there anything you can do to get the bike lane re-installed along Mockingbird going across WRL??
    Where this cyclist was hit: http://www.getwellsoonpaul.blogspot.com/
    No. Why do you think a speeding motorist changing lanes and making an illegal pass on the right would have been deterred by a 6" stripe of paint? http://cycledallas.blogspot.com/2008...ird-2-way.html

    I've emailed Mr. Kadane(council member for the area) but he is not too concerned with cycling safety, he just wants to keep the bicycles off the bridge, but that is not going to happen, bicycles use that bridge all the time... Why not make it safer with a bike lane there?
    Mr. Kadane is very concerned, but he may not share your opinion on the solution. I know there are plans to "manage" the traffic on Mockingbird that will improve its functionality for all road users.

    Statistically, contrary to what many have come to believe, bike-lanes afford no protection from cars, and possibly (probably in my opinion) actually increase car-bike collisions. Portland's crazy experiments with blue bike-lanes that cross freeway ramps, and green boxes for cyclists to queue up in at stop-lights are examples of how even they are trying to make bike-lanes "safe" (and actually making them even worse). Bike lanes are a traffic control device invented to benefit cars by keeping cyclists out of their way, and falsely sold to cyclists as "protection". Bike lanes are pro-car, and anti-bike.

    And... those blue bike route signs are in need of a huge 'face-lift'. There needs to be some education about the routes, most people don't even know they exist, even long time cyclist??? W not paint some bicycles along those routes, alerting motorists that cyclist might be 'sharing' the roads??? Maybe a few PSA's to educate the public, and for people that want to
    commute???
    Yes, VERY much so. $$$$. And more $$$$.

    I guess you know that Bicylcing magazine gave Dallas the worst rating in the U.S. for cycling??
    Yes I am. They are wrong. A factually inaccurate article based on telephone interviews with curb-bunnies in the suburbs. Even Austin's Texas Bicycle Coalition has officially protested the article. http://cycledallas.blogspot.com/2008...-bins-and.html

    Help!!!! Dallas needs lots of help.
    Not as much as you might think. A few years ago, the Director of Transportation for the City of Portland came to Dallas, and as one of Dakllas' few ECIs (Effective Cycling Instructor), I took him on a 35 mile tour of Dallas on the Bike Route System. He told me how much better it functioned than the Portland system, and how much he wished he had a system like it. I have been to Portland, and cycled there. I agree.

    What Portland DOES have that Dallas doesn't is about 10X the population DENSITY per square mile, and two major universities in the urban core. Those two factors are responsible for the majority of Portland's cycling atmosphere. While Portland has an extensive bike lane system along thoroughfares, the majority of the cycling occurs on local streets off the thoroughfares.

    If you haven't already done so, I strongly encourage you (and all cyclists regardless of skill level) to take the LAB Road 1 course that BikeDFW is offering. While it's not as good as its predecessor (Effective Cycling), it's still quite good, and very helpful. As cyclists, we fall into habits and fears that make cycling more difficult, and less enjoyable, than it should be. We fall victim to the Cycling Inferiority Complex, and the result on the streets is just like when a wolf sees a lame sheep.
    Cyclists fare best when they act, and are treated, as the drivers of other vehicles. -- John Forester

  21. #21
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    I'd love to have bike lanes to complain about, (actually, the whole right lane is my bike lane )
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  22. #22
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    Well Paul (pmsummer) you seem to be quite informed.... my opinion is a little different.

    I totally disagree with your statement about the WRL bridge lane…. And I’m not talking about bike lanes in general… only about a 50-75 yard stretch across a bridge, by a lake where multitudes of cyclist ride daily in the city of Dallas. No, a white stripe won’t stop a speeding car, but it will make cars more aware…. Maybe the pickup that hit Paul would not have gone into other lane, at the very least he would have had some more indication that cyclist use that lane. What about the yellow bumps that are put in the ground, those should help slow a speeding car?

    Further, WRL is a Mecca for outdoor exercisers; why not make it safer for all users by giving cyclist a safer lane across WRL to ride. The pedestrian bridge is narrow and always filled with walkers, dog walkers, children, etc… not really a safe place for bicycles to cross, even slowing way down can be tricky.

    And I’m sorry but Dallas IMO is one of the worst….. (Most no nothing bout those bike routes) After visiting Denver in July and to see their 100’s of miles of bike trials and lanes, really puts things into perspective here………….. Old out of date bike route signs that most citizens no nothing about, projects that have been under plans or construction for years, and again the biggest problem I have is the taking away of the bike lane across WRL…. The attitude on this is beyond belief, any amount of white lines, bumps or signs could only add to the visibility and safety of an area where cyclist DO RIDE…where many types of users use the lake, I’m sure many of the pedestrians would love to see less cyclists on that ‘pedestrian’ bridge, especially on Saturday mornings.

    As far as Sheffiled Kadane goes… his email reply to me about the WRL bridge was this: I believe the reason for moving the bike lane to the bridge over the lake was to keep the bikes off Mockingbird. Mockingbird is a 6 lane 40 mile an hour thoroughfare. I think it is dangerous.
    Sheffie Kadane

    Doesn’t seem like he cares much to me?

    And his quotes in this local neighborhood article…

    http://www.peoplenewspapers.com/ME2/...FE3AF3C8906EFF

    Especially the one about not hearing from the bikers, that is just not true. He heard from me before this article was published, as well as others that I’ve been told about…


    Anyway just my 2 cents for what its worth..

  23. #23
    simul justus et peccator pmsummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedaljeeps View Post
    Well Paul (pmsummer) you seem to be quite informed.... my opinion is a little different.

    I totally disagree with your statement about the WRL bridge lane…. And I’m not talking about bike lanes in general… only about a 50-75 yard stretch across a bridge, by a lake where multitudes of cyclist ride daily in the city of Dallas. No, a white stripe won’t stop a speeding car, but it will make cars more aware…. Maybe the pickup that hit Paul would not have gone into other lane, at the very least he would have had some more indication that cyclist use that lane. What about the yellow bumps that are put in the ground, those should help slow a speeding car?
    I'm still not Paul. I'm well informed due to the 30+ years I have spent engaged in bicycle advocacy in Dallas, Austin, Uganda, and San Francisco. But I come to bicycling as a transportation device, not as a piece of recreational equipment.

    Those of us who have been active for a couple of decades fought long and hard to get rid of bumps like that. Too many cyclists have died because something forced their wheel into one of those, and they were thrown into a travel lane.

    Further, WRL is a Mecca for outdoor exercisers; why not make it safer for all users by giving cyclist a safer lane across WRL to ride. The pedestrian bridge is narrow and always filled with walkers, dog walkers, children, etc… not really a safe place for bicycles to cross, even slowing way down can be tricky.
    Slow down on the bike/ped bridge.

    And I’m sorry but Dallas IMO is one of the worst….. (Most no nothing bout those bike routes) After visiting Denver in July and to see their 100’s of miles of bike trials and lanes, really puts things into perspective here………….. Old out of date bike route signs that most citizens no nothing about, projects that have been under plans or construction for years, and again the biggest problem I have is the taking away of the bike lane across WRL….


    The chart fails to mention that most of Austin's and Houston's bike system are shared-lane, signed bike routes, just like Dallas.

    I wish the City funded their bicycle transportation program better, too. But what makes Dallas a VERY bike-friendly city is the incredible grid of low-volume streets that connect the entire city inside LBJ/635. The STREETS, the infrastructure, has few peers, for riding a bicycle as a vehicle. As a race course, no.

    The "bike trail" across Mockingbird Lane was a killer waiting to happen. Imagine if that speeding truck who wanted to pass the two side-by-side vehicles had whipped into a lane with a several folks coming head on? It was a design type that was contrary to all design standards as it was considered dangerous. Thoroughfares are not playgrounds and athletic fields... whether you want it to be or not.

    The attitude on this is beyond belief, any amount of white lines, bumps or signs could only add to the visibility and safety of an area where cyclist DO RIDE…where many types of users use the lake, I’m sure many of the pedestrians would love to see less cyclists on that ‘pedestrian’ bridge, especially on Saturday mornings.

    As far as Sheffiled Kadane goes… his email reply to me about the WRL bridge was this: I believe the reason for moving the bike lane to the bridge over the lake was to keep the bikes off Mockingbird. Mockingbird is a 6 lane 40 mile an hour thoroughfare. I think it is dangerous.
    Sheffie Kadane

    Doesn’t seem like he cares much to me?
    He cares. He doesn't share your perspective, but he cares. He's also right about what Mockingbird is. The "on-street trail" was supposed to temporary when it was installed. Paul wasn't the first cyclisy seriously injured on that bridge, just the first one since it quit being a trail.

    And his quotes in this local neighborhood article…

    http://www.peoplenewspapers.com/ME2/...FE3AF3C8906EFF

    Especially the one about not hearing from the bikers, that is just not true. He heard from me before this article was published, as well as others that I’ve been told about…
    The reporter misquoted Michelle Holcomb of BikeDFW too, and has issued an apology to both. Most reporters have a story they want to write, and then go fishing for quotes. Sheffie is not a cyclist, and hears from many DIFFERENT cyclists wanting DIFFERENT things. It's a complex problem.

    Anyway just my 2 cents for what its worth.. [/quote]

    Always welcome. Do you live in the City of Dallas?
    Last edited by pmsummer; 08-13-08 at 06:24 PM.
    Cyclists fare best when they act, and are treated, as the drivers of other vehicles. -- John Forester

  24. #24
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    pm summer... Sorry about the name..... Not only do I live in Dallas but I live right in Mr. Kadane's district... I think he will be up for re-election this coming May, can't wait.

    I do agree with you about the yellow bump things, not a good idea...

    But I do think a bike lane going across the bridge (not a two way trial) but a bike lane that is one way, just like the cars going East bound....
    I think it would only make things safer... Yes it is dangerous to begin with, a car could pass another car at any time into the lane, that is a given..... but at least there would be some visibility,
    some notification, something... especially for drivers not familier with the area... How could that be worse or more dangerous?

    And I do slow down at the ped. bridge... very slow.

    Well that chart looks good, but the reality is far different.... Re-read my other post about the non-existiant education here and lack of knowledge. And I see plenty of traffic volume on
    streets in between 635? You know Denver has just about an entire path that goes around one of there main loops.....
    Cities like Denver, Minnelopeous-St. Paul, Tucson, to name a few I've been to recently seem to have lots of bike trials and bike lanes.... I guess I
    need to move, to bad I like my job...

    But you know Dallas and or Texas usually gets high marks for the most obese.... I think I know why, car is king here....

  25. #25
    Borracho For Life
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    I thought that the Veloway would dead-end at Hill because DART will not allow a crossing to be built.

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