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  1. #26
    Member rgilliam2004's Avatar
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    It's been interesting reading the feedback on this and thinking it over. My concern on all this is having each and every rider within the group come to a complete halt. I was taught that we move as a group or one for stop signs. The group stops, then moves as one through the intersection. This does several things:
    1. It clears the intersection of slower moving traffic faster. This (hopefully) prevent the group from pissing off the other drivers.
    2. It allow the group to stay together

    So now we have a group of 20 cyclist in two rows of 10. Now each... and every... one... of us... has...to stop...
    This means the group take longer to clear the intersection, someone may jump the *** and go to fast. Cars have to wait unless the group stops and wait for the rest to clear the intersection. If the group stops and there is no place to get off the road safety then we tie up a lane increasing the risk.

    I agree that there are cyclist that think they can do what ever they want and these people are giving us a bad name. You can search this site and read the posts I have made about a group that just about ran me, another cyclist off the road. But we have tried to work with the leaders of Parker before and every so often this becomes an issue again. I believe it's because of key people within the "town" who whine or pay enough so get their demands heard.

    Groups are going around Parker for now, which is sad because there are some nice routes in that area and it serves as a link or bridge to other nice routes (groups riding through the area). By taking those routes we are staying off other roads that are much busier (heavier, more traffic) and so less safe to ride on.

  2. #27
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgilliam2004 View Post
    Here are the rules that they have stated they will enforce:
    1. All riders must carry ID.

    5. Bicyclists are NEVER to go into an intersection and direct traffic. They will be ticketed for impersonating a police officer.
    Parker cops are out of control as proven by their claims that they will violate a citizens rights by requiring non-motoring citizens to carry ID cards and the BS about impersonating a police officer. The US Supreme Court made it clear in case law from the Hiibel case that non-motoring citizens are not required to carry ID cards; all they are required to do is provide name and DOB if the cops legally stop them. If the cops do not have Reasonable Suspicion/Probable Cause for stopping a citizen, the citizen does not legally even have to give their name and DOB.

    Posters here applauding this action are just as bad as these law breaking cops.

    I hope large groups of cyclist ride through Parker with every single rider fully stopping at every stop sign, looking both ways after stopping and then proceeding. Let the Parker whiners, that also likely roll stop signs, see what is like to wait ten minutes for every cyclist to stop rather that then the one minute that before took the group to safely roll the stop sign.

    The worst are the folks and cops that are OK with cops breaking the law and then forcing citizens to fight them in court. Cops with this type of attitude are nothing but bad apples, that need to be fired.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgilliam2004 View Post
    It's been interesting reading the feedback on this and thinking it over. My concern on all this is having each and every rider within the group come to a complete halt. I was taught that we move as a group or one for stop signs. The group stops, then moves as one through the intersection. This does several things:
    1. It clears the intersection of slower moving traffic faster. This (hopefully) prevent the group from pissing off the other drivers.
    2. It allow the group to stay together

    So now we have a group of 20 cyclist in two rows of 10. Now each... and every... one... of us... has...to stop...
    This means the group take longer to clear the intersection, someone may jump the *** and go to fast. Cars have to wait unless the group stops and wait for the rest to clear the intersection. If the group stops and there is no place to get off the road safety then we tie up a lane increasing the risk.

    I agree that there are cyclist that think they can do what ever they want and these people are giving us a bad name. You can search this site and read the posts I have made about a group that just about ran me, another cyclist off the road. But we have tried to work with the leaders of Parker before and every so often this becomes an issue again. I believe it's because of key people within the "town" who whine or pay enough so get their demands heard.

    Groups are going around Parker for now, which is sad because there are some nice routes in that area and it serves as a link or bridge to other nice routes (groups riding through the area). By taking those routes we are staying off other roads that are much busier (heavier, more traffic) and so less safe to ride on.
    I don't know who taught you to move as a group across stop sign intersections, only time you can legally do that is a green light, traffic law is clear, stop means stop, bicycles may not ride more than two abreast. Period. They can and should enforce those laws as written and apply to bikes and cars alike.
    There is no basis in law for the requirement (attempted) that bike riders carry I'd, it ain't legal to enforce a non law.

  4. #29
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Parker cops are out of control as proven by their claims that they will violate a citizens rights by requiring non-motoring citizens to carry ID cards and the BS about impersonating a police officer. The US Supreme Court made it clear in case law from the Hiibel case that non-motoring citizens are not required to carry ID cards; all they are required to do is provide name and DOB if the cops legally stop them.
    I've heard that some other states have different laws regarding when they must carry ID ... but while I can't talk about other states, I can confirm that Texas does not have laws that require that citizens carry ID with them unless they're doing something that requires it (like driving.) And I don't think it would be kosher for a local government to have their own law that requires the carrying of ID.

    However, Texas law does support the police arresting people and taking them downtown if they can't be adequately identified for a citation. This would be a serious dick move, but it would probably be legal for the police to make a blanket policy that they will not issue field citations and release citizens unless they have their ID on them, that all people who are stopped and ticketed for any reason and don't have ID would be taken downtown until they can produce ID or be identified through other means (like fingerprints.)

    They wouldn't then be requiring that people carry ID, but instead requiring that everybody be properly identified when being ticketed. Still a dick move, and I hope it backfires on them. At the very least, I hope they apply it to everybody, not just to cyclists.

    As for impersonating a police officer, that would never fly unless somebody might believe that they were actually an officer. It's also a felony, so such charges would be defended vigourously. In general, in Texas Critical Mass corkers get hit with obstructing a highway when the police want to make a strong statement, and simply for running red lights when they're not so serious about it. Obstructing a highway is a class B misdemeanor, so it's more serious than most moving violations and generally results in a trip downtown. That said, it also exactly fits the crime. (Normally, there's only three groups that get hit with "obstructing a highway/passageway" charges -- 1) protesters staging a sit-in or the like, 2) people caught for DWI but given a plea bargain for some reason, and 3) Critical Mass corkers.)

    As for the rest, everything they mention is the law and such enforcement would be appropriate. It's hard to fault the police for enforcing the law, even when it's a crackdown on one specific group.
    Last edited by dougmc; 06-16-14 at 10:39 AM.

  5. #30
    Member rgilliam2004's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1986raleigh View Post
    I don't know who taught you to move as a group across stop sign intersections, only time you can legally do that is a green light, traffic law is clear, stop means stop, bicycles may not ride more than two abreast. Period. They can and should enforce those laws as written and apply to bikes and cars alike.
    There is no basis in law for the requirement (attempted) that bike riders carry I'd, it ain't legal to enforce a non law.
    So you have everyone in your group stop?

  6. #31
    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgilliam2004 View Post
    So you have everyone in your group stop?
    What is so important about keeping the group together that laws must be broken?

    If it's a very large group or if special circumstances apply then a call to city hall might be in order.. Police often will conduct traffic control at intersections for these types of activities and will block the traffic for you..

    If it's a group fun ride then I see no reason as to why the group must be kept together at all times and at the sake of breaking every single law that interferes with that happening..
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  7. #32
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgilliam2004 View Post
    So you have everyone in your group stop?
    You may think it's silly, but the traffic laws don't really cover groups, but instead individual vehicles.

    When an individual operator in their individual vehicle encounters a stop sign, they are expected to stop at the line before going. The fact that there's a bunch of other similar individuals around them is immaterial -- each must come to a complete stop near the line before going.

    Yes, it would be more efficient if they could stop as a group in the case of a tight pack of cyclists ... but that's not what the law says. It's also more efficient if cars can stop and go as a group ... and the law actually supports that, it's called a traffic light. But in the absense of a traffic light ... each vehicle is to stop at the light individually.

  8. #33
    Senior Member bikemig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
    I've grown up in the DFW area and I had to look up Parker on a map. Wow. What an inconsequential town. If I were part of a group that were somehow riding through there, I'd just alter the route and steer around it. Not worth dealing with.

    . . .
    Your probably right that this is the sensible response but then the locals who don't like cyclists win. The fact that the town is so inconsequential suggests that some folks got peeved at the out-of-towners and decided to have "their" cops lower the boom on the "foreign" cyclists.

  9. #34
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Here are some city council minutes. http://www.parkertexas.us/ArchiveCen...wFile/Item/445

    Give some history as to why this may be happening. Several local bike shops have rides that use the streets in Parker and the groups can get pretty big.

    I live in another area of Richardson that sees lots of PBA and RBM rides. Most riders stop in packs at stop signs and cross in packs. I have no problem with this, I think it makes sense. The 2 by 2 thing will end up stacking up traffic and increase the danger as it will put cars and cyclists in more conflict at stop signs and on the road after stop signs as the cars will have to pass all the groups of 2 cyclists, etc.

    Parker has always been sort of a "speed trap" town to me. I used to have to drive through it all the time on my way to work at Lake Lavon form my home in Richardson. You could usually expect to see a police car trying to catch speeders. More profit centered law than protecting the public if you ask me.
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  10. #35
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsharr View Post
    Parker has always been sort of a "speed trap" town to me. I used to have to drive through it all the time on my way to work at Lake Lavon form my home in Richardson. You could usually expect to see a police car trying to catch speeders. More profit centered law than protecting the public if you ask me.
    And a pretty good bet is that Parker cops were not ticketing Parker residents regardless of their speeding.
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  11. #36
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsharr View Post
    Here are some city council minutes. http://www.parkertexas.us/ArchiveCen...wFile/Item/445
    Looks like the city attorney is as good at making crap up as the Parker cops are:

    City Attorney Jim Shepherd gave a review of the bicycle laws in the State of Texas
    Transportation Code:

    a) if there is traffic hazard, or a nuisance, City Council may take action to abate and
    remove the problem
    b) disorderly conduct may be using a bicycle to annoy a person passing the bicycle
    c) local authorities can regulate their streets, which may include registration and
    licensing of bicycles
    d) bicycles may be used on improved shoulders of a road
    e) bicycles are to follow the same traffic laws as motor vehicles
    f) bicycles are to ride to the curb
    g) bicycles are not to be more than 2 abreast
    h) bicycles are not to impede traffic
    i) may get the road fixed to include shoulders, better shoulders or bike lanes under
    certain circumstances in which both the adjacent landowner and the city pays for such
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  12. #37
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    I'm amazed that the speck of a town of Parker, TX has both a police force and a city attorney.

  13. #38
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    Doesn't sound as they have a real attorney for a city attorney.......................

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgilliam2004 View Post
    So you have everyone in your group stop?
    I ride alone, traffic law is quite clear, a bike is a vehicle and must follow traffic laws, stop means stop. Each vehicle is responsible to follow the traffic laws,. Of course you are free to ignore my twenty plus yrs experience enforcing said laws.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Doesn't sound as they have a real attorney for a city attorney.......................
    Yup that sounds like made up junk to me,

  16. #41
    Senior Member nkfrench's Avatar
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    So the 14 year old riding his bike to school has to carry an ID?

    We've had a cop scold us for riding more than 2 abreast -- but we weren't. We were not in a strict paceline format with everybody riding directly behind the rider in front. There was no wheel overlap but from the back of the group it was hard to tell.

    The complainers might find that enforcement of this rule doesn't exactly work in their favor:
    4. At stop signs two (2) riders, abreast, must fully stop, then go. Then the next two (2) abreast riders must fully stop, then go, and the next two (2) and so on through the group.

    This one gets fudged pretty often in groups of 6-8 riders that are riding together.
    The "one big bus" concept is a more efficient way to get ALL people through the intersection.

  17. #42
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    Here's a link to the hot-spots the City is concerned with:
    https://maps.google.com/maps?rls=com...=0CBQQ8gEoADAA

    https://maps.google.com/maps?rls=com...=0CBQQ8gEoADAA

    https://maps.google.com/maps?rls=com...=0CBQQ8gEoADAA

    I think you'll agree that the empty road next to the llama ranch, featuring a stop-sign for a driveway, is probably more of a revenue trap than a public-safety related item.

    I've done this ride since I started cycling and we go through that town after 7pm or so on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We roll two-abreast on the first half of that area, single-file on the second half and we do it out of courtesy. The reality of this deal is that complaints about two groups of 15-25 cyclists going through the bustling metropolis adjacent to the llama farm are probably not real problems. A pack of cyclists stopping at a stop-sign and then rolling through is neither a safety concern nor an inconvenience. The city would probably have fewer complaints about cyclists if they'd start moving trash-cans out of the road. I should also note that we go about 30mph through here, which is the speed limit, so we are virtually no inconvenience to cars.

    These are not real problems. Rather than tell people who live there to leave the cyclists alone and to check their attitude, the police decided to ruin Tuesdays and Thursdays for a bunch of cyclists any way possible. Cities across America are embracing cycling, the City of Parker doesn't want a bunch of people riding $5-10k bicycles adding to the tax base and they will continue to see Allen and Plano rise to the occasion and embrace it.

    Also, please ticket me for failure to ID. I would love to bring a civil rights lawsuit against the city.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    I'm amazed that the speck of a town of Parker, TX has both a police force and a city attorney.
    It is probably a "contract attorney," a local attorney who is retained as "city attorney." There are some firms that specialize in this. It may even be part of the government code to require incorporated cities to have a City Attorney (to lazy to research it right now but I've never known a Texas city, even one with less than 300 people, to not have a City Attorney).
    The Old Sarge

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