grolby

I don't have anything against disc brakes, I was just looking for a less expedition/loaded touring-focused bike among the manufacturers that have been recommended so far.

I do think your idea of "light" is vastly different from mine, such that I don't know what would qualify as heavy. There are no options among the frames you seem to like that are actually lightweight. That's cool, I just want you to be aware that it's looking like you're going to end up with a bike that weighs about as much as a standard touring bike.

For balance I will add that I had a 50cm 26" LHT and that was a great bike. From everything I've heard, the 26" version is a lot zippier than the 700C equivalent, and indeed it could be pretty fun once I figured out the fit. But it's not light!

LeeG

Something isn't connecting

bikemig 

The OP has multiple purposes in mind: 26 inch wheels, fast commuter, touring, etc. Not everyone has the same definition of "fast" in any case. A surly LHT is pretty fast for some people; not so fast for others. There is no disconnect here; the OP has preferences and the list spends most if its time trying to argue with the OP why he or she is wrong.

By the way, did anyone else notice (or pay attention) to the fact that the OP posted this question in the touring forum?

twodownzero

I appreciate your post because you seem to be one of few who understand the tradeoffs I'm seeking with this bike build. The rest of this post is aimed at trying to explain what you seem to already have figured out to the others who don't seem to understand the purpose of this post.

I actually don't have touring as one of my criteria at all. I originally posted this in the touring forum because I know that touring bicycles come with eyelets for racks and fenders and have longer chainstays for heel clearance. I also know that comfortable geometry is a must on touring bicycles because of simple ergonomics--nobody is going to spend a thousand miles a month on a heavily-loaded bike that is not comfortable unless they're racing (and in way better shape than me). Cross bikes are common for the task I am seeking a bicycle for, but cross bikes have shorter chainstays and I might have to compromise the size of the panniers that work or the width of my tires to use a cross bike for this use. I'd also probably need different gearing since cross bike gearing is not aimed at my intended use; this of course would not matter if I built the bike, I could use whatever mix of components created the gearing desired.

"Light" when talking about touring bicycles is relative. "Light" compared to what? Compared to the hybrid I used to ride, which was 43 pounds, a 28 pound touring bike is pretty light. Is it light compared to my 17 pound road bike (when I put the lightest wheels on it, strip off the seat bag, etc.)? No, of course not. Would I prefer a 24 pound touring bike if I could find one with the mix of features that I otherwise desire? Sure! Does such a bicycle exist in the mass market without buying a custom frame? If so, I haven't found it. The Surly frames are $470 and $600. A Waterford is going to cost $12-1500. I would prefer the latter of course, but considering that I'm going to ride this bike around town, lock it up to bike racks, and perhaps leave it outside at some point where I won't be able to see it, I can't build a $3000 bike. I'm reluctant to build a $1500 bike and leave it outside. The expense of my current road bike has detracted from its fun; I don't ride it around town as much as I otherwise would because it's too expensive leave it anywhere. The same goes for a custom steel bike. The only way I'm going to get within my budget is to find a mass-marketed frame. And yes, Surly makes the heaviest mass marketed bikes there are; they also compete against a bunch of companies that market to boy-racer fanatics and many of those bikes are aluminum. If there is a "light tourer" with heel clearance, disc brakes, and 26" wheels, I want to know about it. I knew the Disc Trucker was heavy before I made this thread; I hoped a bike frame with similar geometry and lighter weight existed. I suspect now after all the replies that no such frame exists in the mass market for a price that I want to pay. If I'm wrong about that, I hope someone points that out before I buy the heavier bike.

I probably should have posted this in the commuter forum, but the bike I am trying to find is a cross between a commuter and a touring bike. If my post would be better in the commuting forum, then so be it and I hope the mods move it. Also, if you put any thought into it, every bicycle innovation has come from someone trying to cross one type of bike with another. Flat bar commuters, hybrids, and fitness bikes are a cross between the strength of a mountain bike and the speed of a road bike. Cross bikes seek the aerodynamics of a road bike with the traction of a mountain bike and gearing different from both. Touring bikes are more relaxed road bikes with geometry made to carry a load, and on and on. Every type of bike you can think of, and really any innovation, builds on past successes. I'm trying to leverage the pros of a road bike with the cargo carrying capability of other types of bikes so I can carry my stuff to work and ride faster than a conventional commuter.

If I end up building a touring bike and it is 1) lighter than a flat bar commuter, 2) comfortable, and 3) more aerodynamic, then I would view that as a huge success. Everyone keeps talking about weight, but aerodynamics has way more to do with speed than weight. I KNOW that a drop bar bike where I can flatten out my back more than a flat bar bike will be faster regardless of weight. Weight is not that important; it's a minor consideration on this type of use.

It also seems a bunch of people showed up to my thread to tell me that I don't need disc brakes, that toe overlap isn't an issue and that I should compromise away those things in order to have some other benefit. Those people have prompted interesting discussion and thought, but not much more. I am not building a bike with rim brakes or 700c wheels. They don't fit my body size and I don't care if the market says that adult bikes should have 700c wheels. They don't fit me and I'm done growing. The solution is smaller wheels for a smaller person, even if the market doesn't seem to care about shorter adults. Disc brakes have benefits that even racing bicycles are starting to realize. I want disc brakes. I'll ride a heavier bike to get them. I'm not compromising that benefit away on this build.

I am going to hit up my LBS in a few hours to get fit. I think I'm going to end up ordering a Disc Trucker. I'm not convinced that a cross/gravel bike will have enough heel clearance. I hope the unloaded or lightly loaded ride isn't too sluggish and boring. If so I may regret my choice and wish I'd compromised away the heavy touring capability for quicker handling. If not, though, I'll have a durable and somewhat aero commuter that can handle rough roads and gravel if necessary.

That is actually a great suggestion. The Crossrip, if it were made with smaller wheels, would be very close to what I'm looking for. That said, its geometry indicates why I don't want a 700c bike.

I would need the smallest sized Crossrip. And if you look at their fit page, you'd see that they changed the seat tube angle and a bunch of other dimensions in order to make the smallest size. For someone even a few inches shorter than me (aka, many adult women), they don't even make a size that would work. The chainstay length is good, a compromise between road dimensions and a touring bike. The Crossrip appears, for someone taller than me, to be a great match and mix of features for the use I want.

If I was 5'10", I'd buy a Crossrip. If not for the geometry compromises to fit a smaller adult, it is light, aero, has heel clearance, and disc brakes. It probably has enough tire clearance for fenders. But it's not for me because I'm not 5'10". They should make the same bike with 26" wheels in smaller sizes.

fourfa

Just curious about the heel clearance problem - with my Ortliebs, you can just adjust the attachment points and slide the bags back pretty far. Haven't used other brands to know if that works too. In terms of weight distribution, if the bags are a certain distance back from the BB and you can get the rack to fit, it doesn't seem to matter much if there are short or long chainstays underneath.

djb

re Crossrip, I couldnt find the dimensions page.....and on that note, how can you tell by numbers if a given bike has toe overlap or not? I ask because the Trek promo blurb makes a point of saying that it doesnt have toe overlap, who knows if its true for all sizes?

LeeG

Twodown, if you're willing to consider that panniers do not have to be mounted over the rear wheel it might open up more choices in your searching if some of the bikes you're looking at have shorter chainstays. I have a CrossCheck that can carry front panniers better than on the rear rack. Also on 26" wheel bikes I'm not fond of lowriders as the bags are too close to the curb for urban riding and there are also rack/pannier combos that put the panniers closer to the head tube and over the front axle instead of cantilevered way forward.

I forget if you have to have steel but there are a lot of production aluminum bikes and there might be one out there meeting your criteria for a better all rounder. Get a tape measure and see what dimension you need for toe clearance w fenders on 26" and 700c.

Chris Pringle

A 26" wheeled Disc Trucker might be the way to go in your case. It is the only mass produced bike that seems to meet most of your needs as far 26" wheels, disc brakes, designed for drop bars, able to carry panniers, etc. Don't forget that components usually make up the biggest expense on any bike. Build it with cheap components (which will be heavier) and the whole concept of having a light, fast(er) and, above all, a FUN bike goes out the window. I say this since you envision leaving your new bike locked outside unattended. That's always a risk with any nice bike -- and believe me that yours will be a nice bike in the eyes of a thief. Obviously, one has to take all the necessary precautions, but I think it's best to have a homeowners insurance that will cover this sort of loss so you can enjoy your dream bike more freely. But that's my own logic.

A few years ago, I was also looking for a 26"-wheeled touring/randonneuring bike. Like you, I had certain criteria about the geometry and features I wanted, especially for the more spirited rides while randonneuring. I looked around and compared the few options available in the market. In the end, I couldn't find exactly what I wanted, so I went with a custom bike from Rodriguez (R+E Cycles) in Seattle. Three years later it still continues being the bike of my dreams. The bike fits me like a glove and it does everything I want. I believe this satisfaction stems from the fact that I decided to go custom -- no compromises whatsoever. I wrote more about this build here. Here are a couple of recent pics:



On my 600 Km brevet three weeks ago...

djb

Thought of this this morning--I use an old mtn bike , alu frame, 26in wheels, as my anything goes commuter. It weighs about 28lbs even with a suspension fork. Don't know if you are interested or mechanically inclined but what about finding a good condition mtn bike and changing it to drop bars?

What made me think of this is the theft issue, when I lock mine up in an area with it will be seen more, I use 2 or 3 locks, just as a deterrent, but it helps that it looks older.

Also my bike steers nice and quickly and no toe overlap.
Completely diff experience than buying a bike ready to go, but an option nonetheless although hit and miss of course in terms of finding frames etc.

treebound 

Whenever anyone talks light tourer / commuter I think of cross bikes like the Salsa Casseroll and Soma Crosscheck and others. Lately I've been thinking again of a touring bike and I'm thinking of a cross bike or converted rigid MTB. But as with most things, adjust to what works for you.

There are some nice bikes mentioned in this thread. I keep thinking about a Fargo, maybe someday.

twodownzero

I love your bike! It basically does and has everything that I had in my vision for the perfect bike for this. I also see that you share my interest in the belt drive and the IGH. Unfortunately for this build, I don't have the budget for it now, but maybe in the future, I can upgrade to an IGH with a chain. I'm almost afraid to look at what your bike would cost for me to build, but I can say that if I could build one with no restrictions on budget, I would absolutely build it like yours on a custom frame.

I'm not planning on using the cheapest components possible or anything to build mine, so it will still probably cost in the neighborhood of $2k when it's finished. I do have good insurance and a good lock, but I also think that not going overkill on the budget will help me have a bit of peace about possibly locking it up outside. I can take it into my office at work though so it won't be locked up there and even if it was, it's a secure area where it would be locked.

If I could find a used mountain bike in my size, I'd keep it a mountain bike! I've actually wanted to buy a mountain bike for years and have been casually looking for a used one, but I haven't found one. If I was taller and closer to the "medium" size I always seem to find, I'd probably have one by now. Other than that, being tiny is an advantage in that I'm lighter and more aero, but buying a used biycle is virtually impossible.

I pulled the trigger and ordered a Disc Trucker frame yesterday. I am thinking I may go with some handbuilt wheels with a dynamo hub so that I can power my lights from them, along with a few other ideas I have up my sleeve; hopefully I can keep this build within the budget. It should be around 30 pounds when I am done, and that is perfectly fine with me.

Chris Pringle

Thank you! My frame is indeed ready for an IGH (chain or belt). In trying to keep things a little simpler, I haven't installed a Rohloff. I am actually really satisfied with the way my traditional derailleur drivetrain is working.

Congrats on the purchase of the Disc Trucker 26! It will give you many years of satisfaction. Also, you'll learn a lot from it, so if one day you decide to go for a custom build, you'll know more about the perfect geometry, features, likes/dislikes, etc.

Last fall I had Chris K Murray in CO. build me a new front wheel with dynamo hub in preparation for my brevet series and for the Paris-Brest-Paris in August. He's quite active here in the BF. Very pleased with his job! I complemented his fine work with a SON disc hub, an Edelux II headlight and a Secula Plus seat stay tailight. By the way, the 26" No Tubes ZTR Alpines are one of the best rims for your goal of a fast, light-touring bike. You can see them in the pics above. All I can say is that I wish I had done several years ago.

LeeG

Dynos are great. Continental Sport Contacts and Schwalbe Racers are nice fast tires.

mtn.cyclist

I just finished this Specialized AWOL. This is bikepacking set up but it could certainly be made lighter and faster with different tires and component choice. A smoking deal, in my opinion. It came as frame, fork, head set,head set, seat post, seat post clamp. It rides beautifully, no quirks or signs of neurosis or OCD tendencies.

twodownzero

I was thinking the Schwalbe marathon racer 26x1.5. I'm also thinking about going with 32 spoke rims rather than 36. For a 150 lb rider, will 32 spoke handbuilts with 3 cross laced spokes be strong enough, even if I have it loaded up pretty good front and rear? I'm sure they'd be strong enough for commuting so I'm mostly asking for future touring possibilities. I don't want to build too heavy a wheelset but I don't want any compromises on strength either.

Also, any recommendations on a rear hub if I go with the Shimano front dynamo hub?

Chris Pringle

The Schwalbe Marathon Racer are excellent tires. My bike has currently the 1.5" (folding bead version) for randonneuring and I love them. Believe it or not, I have never had a flat with them. If you're thinking of going off-road while touring, the 1.75" are better for that purpose.

32 double-butted spokes on 26" wheels are plenty for touring. By the way, the Stans No Tube Alpine rims on my bike are strictly for randonneuring. They are super light even though they're made for cross-country mountain biking, so I trust them for my light purposes of randonneuring. They will also work great for commuting, but for loaded touring I have another much stronger wheelset with Mavic 819 rims. In your case, I highly suggest looking into the Velocity Aeroheat for a multipurpose rim at a reasonable weight.

Shimano makes good, great value disc rear hubs. The XT might be the way to go in terms of weight, water-proofing, etc.

djb

I've used 32 spoke 26in wheels for a long time with some rear pannier only touring without problems, but it's pretty much accepted that how well a wheel is built is just as important as the parts, within reason I guess.
I weigh about 10-15 lbs less than you.

That said, the weight diff between a 32 spoke rear wheel vs a 36 must be very little-- but touring may be very rare for you.

twodownzero

Built these on pro wheel builder with 36 butted spokes, brass nipples, and the wheels/hubs you recommended and they came out to $429. That's not bad at all!

dbg

Not easy to tell. I did a toe overlap calculator a few years ago and posted it here. You could look it up. It included a lot of elements (shoe extension beyond pedal, crank length, BB height, head tube angle, and lots more). For a bike in my size range (~55cm) a basic guide turned out to be: wheelbase minus chain stay length needed to exceed 610 mm to be pretty sure there was no toe overlap for a 700c wheel.

djb

sounds tricky because of the various elements like you mention (especially if you consider diff tires and then how diff fenders have diff dimensions and whatnot)

and while in nearly all situations a bit isnt an issue, I can completely understand not wanting to have any.

BigAura

Here's your link.

bmthom.gis

Plenty of Sport Touring bikes were made in the 80s. Not a "real" touring bike but they have the geometry between a racer and a tourer. Seems like you really want disc brakes...I guess someone has to buy them up. It won't be me. Cantis or dual pivots work very well - and I doubt you will ever have any trouble finding replacements in 20 years.

twodownzero

If I could find an old '80s bike just as you describe, I would buy it in a heartbeat! One of my friends had a real nice Specialized bicycle from that era that he has rode all over europe. Unfortunately, finding smaller sizes is really hard. If I could fit on a 54, it'd probably be easier, but I need a 50-52 cm and they're hard to come by. If I ever do come across a bike from that era that doesn't have frame rust issues, I'll buy it immediately.

I agree with you that a ton of bikes were once available that would, besides the lack of disc brakes, been great for what I'm doing. That said, the weight penalty of the frame I'm using is going to be 3-5 pounds at best; not a big deal to me at all and with the right tires, I'm convinced that it will ride nicer than my current road bike, which I rode to work this morning on with a backpack. There's just so much crap in the roadways here in New Mexico and goatheads--I'm looking forward to a bike with more tire clearance very soon.

bmthom.gis

I seem to usually see the opposite...tons of very small bikes (you can tell by the head tubes) that would no way fit me. Lately I have been seeing super big bikes, but there are still lots of small framed 80s bikes out there. Upgrade the drivetrain and you would have yourself a heckuva bike! I just recently did this to a Peugeot. It went from a 10 speed with stem shifters to a compact 2x9 with all modern conveniences.

Another thought - you could convert a bike from 700 to 26" wheels...if you don't go disc just get some really long reach brakes (like Tektro R559s). With discs, you no longer have to think about reach. The geometry will be a little different, but I'm sure somewhere out there on the internet someone has done it.

twodownzero

I'm kinda curious if anyone has any suggestions for wheelsets that are machine built. I don't want to skimp on things, but this build is going to reach $2k with handbuilts and a dynamo front hub even without lights and while I can budget the additional cash, I'd rather see it closer to $1600 than $2k. Any suggestions appreciated. If not, I'll bite the bullet.

I'm probably going to run tiagra shifters, a sora front derailleur, a 48/36/24 mountain crank of some kind, a 10 speed cassette (12-30), and a SRAM chain. I think this will give me good versatility.