Dave Cutter

But as the lawlessness increases by... "non-documented immigrants" (I think that is the proper PC term).... expect less deference to the rules of law by it's enforcers. Many MILES of American border lands are now considered too dangerous to travel... even by car. Signs similar to this are everywhere.

axolotl

Considered too dangerous by whom?

I believe those signs were put up by the state of Arizona. That's the same state whose legislature has passed all sorts of absurd legislation in recent years.

BigAura

Enjoy your recliner!

Dave Cutter

"Those"?!?!? How many pictures did I post? Well apparently you don't like the people of the State of Arizona..... I won't guess what it is about them you don't like. But the BLM, Bureau of Land Management is a federal agency.... if that somehow makes you feel better.

Dave Cutter

Cute! I bet you post while riding your bicycle don't you!

I've posted cycling images to facebook from my bicycle. It is sort of an advocacy thing I do. Many of my friends (as well as myself) are retired. So I offer up an occasional picture of a place or event that I am at... via my bicycle. I hope (and think I do) encourage others (my age) to get outside and get some healthy exercise... cycling.

zonatandem

I am a naturalized citizen and do not carry my citizen papers with me.
One official asked for a 'copy' of my citizenship papers. Told him : 'Read the fine print on US citizenship papers: Not to be copied.'
Another time entering Canada was asked 'where are you from.'
Told the guy : 'Arizona'. He then told me: 'You have a ***? All Arizonans carry a ***.' Told him 'No ***, but I carry a big knife.' He waved us through.
Must be a boring job at times!

zonatandem

I live in Arizona.
ALL states have passed some stupid laws, yours included.
Heck, feds passed stupid laws and had them rescinded with a new constitutional amendment (Prohibition).

fietsbob

The crew of all the ships headed up river dont come ashore at all , I'm separated by 1 state in either direction from the land Borders.

axolotl

I said absolutely nothing about "the people of the State of Arizona". I cited the legislature. I'll cite the current governor, as well, because she has signed a lot of the absurd legislation.

I found one link which claimed that the state of Arizona put up the signs on BLM land, and another which claimed that the BLM put up the signs. Regardless of who put up the signs, the point of your post and photo was obviously political.

desconhecido 

To the best of my knowledge, we don't have classes of citizenship in this country. By either method, by birth or by naturalization, we're all equal citizens, except, of course, for the constitutional requirements for the presidency. Nobody has ever expected me, a natural born citizen, to carry a birth certificate to prove my claim of citizenship so it seems to me unreasonable to expect a naturalized citizen to carry proof of citizenship. When applying for extra privelges, like a passport or security clearance or whatever, proof of citizenship may be required, but just as a matter of course, I find it insulting.

edited: and I think that equality of citizenship status is a natural result of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment.

Dave Cutter

You're sadly... wrong all the way around.
1. In Az (like every state in America) the legislature is made up of, and elected by.... the residents of the state.
2. The Governor is a man named Doug Ducey.
3. I did NOT have.... and continue NOT to have any "political" point top make here. I think... you're thinking too hard.

cb400bill

Hey guys!

This is the Touring forum, not Politics and Religion. Please keep it on topic.

axolotl

One difference between the USA and many European countries is that Americans are not issued "ID cards". French citizens, for example, are issued a "carte d'identité" and are supposed to have it on them. I have been stopped by police in both France and Spain and was asked to see my ID card. The most recent time was about 5 or 6 years ago when I was touring in Spain. I was suddenly surrounded by 3 plainclothes officers in who demanded to see my "tarjeta". I told them I was a tourist and I handed them my passport. They looked for the stamp of my entry into the EU (which was at a German airport) and phoned someone who verified that my passport stamp and I were legitimate. They were polite but were incredulous that I had biked all the way from Bilbao to Santander the previous day. I had a somewhat similar experience in Paris many years ago. My understanding is that it's perfectly legal in those 2 countries to be stopped without cause by the authorities and be required to show your ID card (or passport), unlike the US.

About 10 years ago while driving north to Tucson from the Mexican border, I was stopped at a roadside checkpoint. I honestly don't recall what I was asked, but I wasn't asked for any documentation. The entire exchange lasted a few seconds.

I've seen the videos of people being stopped in more recent years with the whole "Am I being retained?" scenario. One thing which both civil libertarians on the political left, and tea party types on the political right generally agree upon, is that these stops are unconstitutional. I believe that "stop and frisk" is similarly unconstitutional. Indeed, I would say it is obviously unconstitutional.

It's true that at borders and ports of entry, we all have far fewer rights. The only border where I've been hassled is the Canadian border (and I've been to at least 3 dozen countries and on every continent except Antarctica). Twice at land borders entering Canada, I was told to go inside to be interrogated. The Canadian border agent many years ago was very polite and her questions were reasonable. The more recent time was highly annoying and I later filed a formal complaint with the Canada Border Services Agency because of the behavior of the border official. I eventually received the expected bureaucratic reply because I suspect the border official in question lied when asked about my allegations about his behavior. I later learned that it is shockingly common for both Canadian and American citizens to be on the receiving end of abusive and unprofessional behavior from border officials of their neighboring country. BTW, the Canadian border official looked at every file on my old netbook and every digital photo in my camera. My understanding is that they have the right to do that, and that was not what I complained about. FWIW, I toured in a couple of communist countries and was treated far more politely at the border than I was that time (about 3 years ago) at the Canadian border.

Big Lew

Like "cymro", I have spent time along the southwest border areas in California, Nevada, and Arizona
the last few years during the winter months. I have driven up to and through several inland Border
Guard checkpoints while driving with BC Canadian plates. They asked a few general questions but
never asked to see my passport or driver's licence. They were always polite. I have been stopped
twice by Border Patrol trucks. Once while riding south of Tucson on hwy 82, and once when riding
on 85 south of Why. They also just asked what I was doing, where I came from, and where I was
headed. Because I had minimum gear, basically just water, tool kit, camera, map, lunch, and no tan,
they knew I was a Canadian Snowbird.

jeneralist 

OP rejoining the thread...

One of the difficulties in talking about what happens at checkpoints, either those at the real border or those within the 100 mile zone, is that what *usually* happens and what *can* happen are two different things. Part of the difference is based on where you've been thus far in your travels; whether or not you're a citizen; whether or not you're a "local" -- and some is based on what you look like, your body language, your spoken language, etc.

(In Philadelphia, for example, a college student studying while waiting for his plane wound up in handcuffs in an encounter that started because he was studying his Arabic vocabulary flashcards: https://6abc.com/news/student-stopped...s-$25k/489506/ )

Lots of us depend on computer gadgets in our travels. Our route info, the contact info for the folks we're meeting on the way, the pictures we've taken on the trip, might all be in the same smartphone carefully nestled on the handlebars. At the border, agents can look at computers, ask you to log in, ask for passwords, hold your computer for more analysis... https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-pri...igital-devices :

Will it happen to most of us? Probably not. Is it more likely to happen to someone with an "interesting" last name, however "interesting" is defined the day you cross the border? I would suspect so.

Can computers be searched and taken in the 100 mile zone? I don't know the current law; but I also know that if you are asked for your stuff, and you give it to them, it doesn't much matter whether or not your computer can be taken without your consent -- you just gave it, and your gadget, to someone in a uniform who asked.

So yes, this is a question that could easily wind up in P&R -- but it also has direct applicability to anyone touring across the US border, and might pertain to those riding near the border.

mev

For what it is worth, I've had more issues at airport checkpoints than these land checkpoints. At airport checkpoints:
- Shortly after new policy was implemented last summer (US-bound passengers may have to switch on mobile phones for security | World news | The Guardian), I was "selected" to go to special location in Frankfort airport to turn on my laptop, tablet and PC
- On different occasions, I've lost a knife and a 4.6 oz toothpaste. The knife because I accidentally left it in my hand luggage. The toothpaste because it was in a 4.6 oz container (there was less than the guideline 4.0 oz of toothpaste left, but since the original container was larger, it was taken).

The US interior checkpoints seem to be concentrating on immigration and drug smuggling. I don't have issues with answering question of whether I am US citizen and those have been pretty easy. Your Arabic flashcard example happened at an airport.

Lots of things *can* happen, but based on my experience, airports have been more troublesome for me than land borders or inland checkpoints.

Dave Cutter

Know one knows the current law! American law... and the technology that is in use... seems to still be under construction. If you read here or search the Internet you will find answers to your questions. But the answers aren't likely to be correct.

Big Lew

For what it's worth, when I was doing my day rides through the scenic rural roads just north of the Mexican border
I carried my Canadian Passport and wallet containing my driver's licence and Care Card (medical) with me but on the
both incidents when the Border Patrol trucks stopped me they didn't ask to see any identification at all. I suspect
they knew I was there already by their various surveillance networks.