rifraf

Just an opinion, worth no more than any other I'm sure.
Either save up for the "Hoff" or settle for derailleur in the mean time for your 700c.
In fact as a Rohloff owner, I'd say, settle for the derailleur and its fantastic gear range offerings which are unmatchable whilst keeping within warranty.
Whilst the "Hoff" is a great unit, its not a magic carpet ride which it should be for something well over $1K US.
For the change you get for a derailleur drive train, you can do a lot of touring far and wide.
Whilst I'm happy enough with my "Hoff", I'm not sure if I'd buy another tomorrow if it were stolen, which speaks volumes.
By the same token, I'm off the opinion, its the King of the IGH's (no intended offence to Shimano devoties).
Theres just too many online complaints about the Shimano units, although to be fair, that may be more an indication of population percentage ownership rather than general dissatisfaction.
Mines never played up although it would be an unmitigated PITA if it did.

With regards to the 406 wheel (20"), I was extremely satisfied with my Moulton APB Landrover armed with a Sram Dualdrive, which I'd recommend in a heartbeat.
Never an issue with mine, which was heavily toured with, towing a trailer including an East to West of Australia.
I've kept a hub/shifter, just in case I ever own another 20" wheel bike.

Rob_E

Yeah, apart from not having the money to throw at it right now, the benefit for the money seems hard to justify. I much prefer the shifting and maintenance of a hub gear, but I don't know if I prefer it to that dollar amount. Until my latest Nuvinci failure, I never even considered it. I prefer the Nuvinci shifting so much, that even if it were priced even with the Rohloff, I think I'd take Nuvinci's shifting over Rohloff's gear range. The thing that makes me consider it is the reliability. I don't hear a lot about people saying their Rohloff has let them down.

And of course derailers remain the fall-back. If I find myself continuing to destroy hubs, I'll go back to a traditional set up, but that's a last resort.

I have a friend with a Dualdrive, and he really likes it, too. I think it's a great concept, but, especially on a folding bike, I like the simplicity of a single IGH set-up. And even though I do a little touring/bike camping on my Raleigh Twenty, I don't ride it as much as my Trucker, and, as a result, I'm willing to suffer through a smaller gear range. Although currently it still has a Nuvinci hub, so it has plenty of range for my needs. If I change it, I'll probably take it down to an 8 speed as well. A Nexus or Sturmey with a coaster brake would solve my other challenge on that bike: getting a functioning rear brake.

bmike

if those words are true, riding a SS would be a fast way to change from 'old, fat guy', to 'old, fast guy'.

Rob_E

It's not what you ride or how many gears you do or do not have. It's where you ride. As long as I keep riding to the bar and the frozen custard stand, I don't think there's a gear change that can change my waistline. ;-)

Rob_E

It's driving me crazy that I can't find this info easily online, even on the Shimano site, but can anyone point me to what constitutes an acceptable ratio between cog and chainring on the Alfine 8?

martianone

What size wheel/tire ?

Rob_E

700, but I'd love to know the formula for figuring it out for any combination. The Nuvinci requires a 1.8 to 1 ratio chainring to cog, I think, regardless of wheel size. Even though I stay within specs on the Nuvinci, I fear I may be over-torquing it. I'd like to see the recommended limits for the Alfine 8, but, as near as I can tell, there aren't any limits.

martianone

the Shimano installation guide gives pretty clear info- just download it. also you can go to the old Sheldon brown website for some info. The ratios are a simple calculation.

Rob_E

Can you point me to this information? I've read multiple entries on Sheldon's site about Shimano IGH's and downloaded any documents I could find on the Shimano's site. Nothing I found mentions allowable chainring/cog combinations or acceptable torque levels.

rifraf

If the question comes up for a "Hoff" hub, tis 34T at the cranks and 16T at the hub within the chainset, for a 700c/29er wheel. Thats as low as you can go and keep within warranty spec

Sheldon offers advice on gear inches and ratios here:
https://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Hope this is helpful to some

Rob_E

That's exactly the info I'm looking for, but for the Alfine 8. As near as I can tell, Shimano does not supply a minimum gear ration.

rifraf

In case you've not yet come across it Rob_E:
Internal Gear Hubs - Mtbr.com

Lots of Alfine stuff in:
Whats the current verdict on the alfine 11- Mtbr.com

Not sure if its helpful as it was this forum that made me steer away from any IGH except Rohloff after lots of in depth reading.

Goodluck!

Forum member vikb would be the man in there to ask about the varies Alfines and their use.

Rob_E

Thanks. I've been on that forum a little. I do think that using a gear hub for mountain biking is a little different than using it for touring/commuting, but then, maybe the way I ride and the success I have breaking hubs, I should be looking at how the hubs hold up when mountain biking.

At any rate, I'm willing to ruin another hub or two before I give up on gear hubs. But I may end up back on a more traditional set up in the long run.

As of now, though, and Alfine 8 is on order, so I guess we'll see where that gets me.

ShortLegCyclist

I don't think anyone has asked you this yet, but how have you broken 3 NuVinci hubs?

Among all internal hub gears, the NuVinci is supposed to be the hardest to break, which is why it is widely thought of as the best internally geared hub for mid drive electric bikes, which have torque to spare.

If you really did over torque that, hub, no Rohloff or Shimano hub is going to do better durability wise, in fact Rohloff doesn't allow their hub to be used on E bikes for that reason, too much torque.

There is only one stronger internal gear hub than the NuVinci N360 to my knowledge, but it's no longer in production, it's the NuVinci N171 hub, rated supposedly for twice the torque as the NuVinci N360. I mention it because you might be able to get your hands on one somwhere on the net, and it should be much cheaper than a new N360.

I know you said price was a concern, but keep an eye on the Pinion system, and internal gearing mechanism built into the bottom bracket. Requires a new bike and a custom frame, and is as pricey as a Rohloff right now. but they just announced two more versions of the Pinion to appear in 2016, which will have fewer gears but also be much cheaper.

The 9 speed in particular is supposedly aimed at commuters and city riders.

Rob_E

I don't know if I over-torqued it or just have bad luck. I believe, after taking the wheel off and removing the cog (to see if it might just be a problem with freewheel mechanism rather than the hub internals) that I was losing fluid. Not enough to drip (I keep the bike in my living room and would have noticed), but the face of the hub behind the cog was filthy and there was build up on the back side of the cog. I don't know if that's due to over-torquing or just some kind of seal failure. The grime makes me think it's a slow, but fairly recent leak, since I gave the bike a good cleaning last month. The failure happened suddenly, though, when I tried to power quickly through an intersection from a standstill. The pedals just spun and chain came off. I originally thought I had just popped the chain, but putting it back on showed me that I was freewheeling in both directions.

I don't remember applying any extra force to the other two hubs at the time of failure, but results were similar, but not as dramatic. The other two hubs would freewheel in low gear, but catch in high gear, which was handy for getting home (except the hills). The other two hubs were the N171 version, and both had indications of leaking fluid. One had been in for repair because of it, and one had signs of fluid loss when it failed. Customer support (who were really great both times) asked if it was hooked up to a motor, because that was the case with most of their support issues. It wasn't, and every hub has been ridden at or above the minimum gear ration.

ShortLegCyclist

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that the NuVinci N171 is the strongest hub out there, and that nothing else, N360, Rohloff, Alfine, SRAM comes even close.

It sounds like you may have had seal issues with leaking lubricant and that is a known issue with those hubs and should be covered under warranty.

But Alfine 11's are known to have the same issue and Rohloffs have specific manufacturer recommended gearings to avoid problems, which strongly implies if you ignore them, you may well have problems.

It sounds to me like you should stick with NuVinci as the problems you have should be covered under warranty.If not, I guess I would wait and see what the lower cost Pinion drive bikes price out as once they are available.

And there is always the option to use a derailleur system until then.

hueyhoolihan

i wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturer's, and for good reason, refrain from publishing, whether for warranty purposes or not, limits WRT gear ratio's and their limits.

turning a bike upside down and turning the pedals in the lowest gear, no matter ridiculously low it is, will not damage an IGH. so a ratio, in and of itself is not a very effective method to predict wear and/or durability.

it is force vs friction that is the problem, and most engineers know that it consists of a few factors, a few of which cannot easily be controlled or made definitive enough in a warranty to make it worthwhile to do so. a few, but not all, are the weight of the rider and bike, and the inclination of and quality of the road. not to mention the determination and strength of the rider.

although, i suppose it would be easy enough to publish the amount of force at the hub, in foot-pounds let's say, that the IGH could withstand, and leave it to the customer to do the math.

Rob_E

Well, I've got an Alfine 8 wheel in the mail, but I'm guessing the N360 will be replaced, too, so we will see. The hub is covered under warranty, but nothing else. With every new hub, I build a new wheel. If they do an even exchange, I can reuse my current spokes and rim, which Will be a change from last time. Still, I get tired of rebuilding my my wheel, even if it is because I have a brand new hub. I'm only under warranty for six more months, so I don't think I'll have any more warranty replacements after this one.

There seem to be lots of happy mountain bikers on Alfine 8s, so I remain hopeful.

ShortLegCyclist

Everyone will have a different experience I am sure. I have one Alfine 8, two Alfine 11s and two Nexus 7s running currently and the only hub not functioning perfectly is the 8.

It skips in fifth and sixth gear under load and that can get VERY annoying. Shifter cable adjustments do not help and this is already the replacement unit, the first one slipped badly with almost every pedal stroke In eighth gear

Hope yours works perfectly

Rob_E

Well, one problem with my current hub is that it went from fully functional to not working at all. Missing a couple of gears is a malfunction I can work with.

Rob_E

After a conversation with Nuvinci support, I learned that the first version of the N360 had a potential problem in which it was possible for a spring clip in the freewheel assembly to get pushed out just enough to prevent the freewheel pawls from engaging. Remove the freewheel, push that clip back into place, and, hopefully, problem solved. So it looks like I didn't break my hub after all (this time). I'll know for sure when I try and reinstall the wheel.

Still, I don't think anything I did will prevent this from happening again, and this isn't the type of repair I'd want to do on the side of the road, so I think this hub may not have a permanent home on my touring bike. But if I understand it properly, any current hub (made in the last 3 years) is not susceptible to this type of failure.

fietsbob

If chainring 1.8:to 1 in the hub is as low as you can go, reducing the Wheel size is offering a lower gear without voiding the warrantee.


With a 20" wheel * a 53:16 gives me the same range (different hub, same math) as the 38:16 with a 26" wheel, which is at their Minimum ratio.
2,35:1

the 53 is comfortably further within the comfort zone. * Bike Friday P.Llama

So If you need a lower gear... let go of the 700c wheel requirement, [FD & Double chainring can extend the range upwards]

Rob_E

So your solution to my search for an affordable, reliable hub is to keep my current hub and build a new bike around it?

I'll keep that in mind, but it doesn't sound that affordable, and I am not actually dissatisfied with the gear range of the hub. In the touring world, it might be considered a little high, but as someone who doesn't tend to enjoy spinning up a big climb anyway, and who often uses a steep grade as an excuse to stretch my legs, I haven't found the gear range a hindrance.

fietsbob

Live with the low gear you get following the Rules of your warrantee,

..and now go back to work!



still havent figured it out?
Sturmey Archer AW3 hubs are the reliability winner if you are only needing 3 speeds ..

Had one in the early 60s , another Circa 94 in my 1st Brompton , BSR in my Current M3L..

Tourist in MSN

I bought my Rohloff two years ago. I did a google search for Rohloff sale price. I ordered it from an internet bike shop in Germany. That does not meet your budget of $500, but it saved me several hundred dollars that way. I build my own wheels, that also saved quite a bit. It came with paperwork in German instead of english but any important documents are on line in english. The US Dollar is much stronger now than when I bought it, thus it is even cheaper now than when I bought mine. I did make one mistake, I used a credit card with a 3 percent currency changing fee from my bank, I should have used a different card to get a lower charge.