Tourist in MSN

I have a first year of production Surly LHT that I bought new. During my last tour I took the LHT instead of one of my Thorn bikes. And decided that the LHT will never again be used on a loaded tour. I know that there are a lot of people that swear by LHT, but I found that compared to the tours where I used a Thorn that the LHT was lacking. For one thing I had 890 miles of shimmy that I could not get rid of, a problem that I have never had with one of my Thorns.

ShortLegCyclist

Americano is not just touring frame thickness, it is touring tandem frame thickness.

That is one heavy duty frame, handbuilt in the USA.

But again, the selling point is it is overbuilt to an extreme to handle extremely heavy touring loads.

fietsbob

the cannondale effect works in steel too larger diameter tubing can be stiffer

in spite if the tube wall being quite thin, and thus still pretty Light.

NeilGunton

https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/99...ing-bikes.html

DropBarFan

Steel used to be king, I imagine that bigger bike builders got some good deals on Reynolds 531 etc. Now steel is a boutique thing & perhaps tube costs are higher. Co-Motion frames a little pricey but OTOH custom option only $400 more. Co-Motion seems to emphasize customer service whereas buying a production tourer can be hit or miss.

BikesDirect.com has a carbon Motobecane racing frame for $600, wow. Carbon is going to be big for touring, it might take 5 or 10 years.

elcruxio

Man that was a cringeworthy topic...

So the Americano frame does have some nice details, such as
- the 145mm rear spacing
I've been thinkin about doing this when I get do start building frames (next christmas hopefully!). However the 145mm rear spacing with normal length chainstays can cause some compatability issues especially if using road type BB-shell. So longer chainstays are required, which is kinda nice in a tourer, but one would not want them to be excessively long or the bike will ride like train.
- Custom builds
This is actually something I can get behind and that explains the price a bit (assuming every CoMo is a custom). Custom made isn't cheap since you need to also design the frame and make new cuts and you can't use stock cut tubes etc.

What I have a problem with is the steel. CoMo uses Reynolds 725 which sound awesome (because Reynolds, ooooh!) but is essentially chromoly. Chromo is actually a pretty neat material and it's hard to find better steel for a bicycle or tourer. That's why Surly, Trek, Salsa, and pretty much all mid range steel bike manufacturers use chromo.
BUT
It IS possibile to find better materials. If I were to build the ultimate tourer, chromo would not be my choice of steel By a long shot. Building chromo essentially means
1) either having a frame that's not as durable as it could be
2) after build heat treating the whole frame. (this really is not an option...)

Instead I'd use something like Reynolds 853 or 653. Now you'all thinking that Reynolds 853 is some fancy thin tubed racing steel, but they do make oversized tubes with thicker wall thickness AND (what I found neat) zone butting which allows for seriously stiff weld sites. And it's air hardening which essentially means that welding or brazing the frame actually makes it stronger.

I mean I'd pay 2k for a Reynolds 853 frame, or possibly the stainless stuff (incredibly hard to build with I hear) but I'd never pay 2k for a chromo frame, even if it was custom.

DropBarFan

I agree, chromo frames are fairly unimpressive. High weight & deader feel than better quality tubing. Steel bikes are a dying breed so less availability & higher price for good tubes. Production tourers will be mostly aluminum alloy frames in the near future w/a bit of elastomer damping.

fietsbob

here is a virtually custom built to order bike for buying anywhere but the US * in 7005 aluminum ..
KOGA Signature Custom Order Bicycles
* they just dont have US dealers , perhaps due to the saturation of the market, supplied from the Pacific Rim.

willibrord

Okay maybe we are picking nits here, but 853 is a chromolly steel. The 900 series Reynolds tubes are stainless.

$2000 seems to be a common price for higher end steel frames.

fietsbob

145, currently, a common tandem freehub, is dishless Because the hub is right shifted to be under the rim.

a Rohloff at 135 is Too, only needing room for 1 cog.. flange spread is wider too..

elcruxio

I mean, yeah, sure the 853 does have chrome and molybdenum in it, but also other elements which makes it
1) air hardening
2) Stronger and more durable than generic cromoly.

So it really is not just a cromoly steel. That's like saying L6 or O2 or 52100 are just carbon steels (which is true in a way but so, so wrong in praxis)

Reynolds 725 and 853 are relatively close in strength with 853 having only 9% more MPa capacity at the highest level. BUT reynolds 853 is air hardening so after welding the steel near the weld seam is not weakened or compromized. 725 is heat treated cromoly and loses its heat treatment strength after welding at the weld and near the weld area. This is further emphasized if fillet brazing is used.

The reality is though that cromoly works, but it's also the Basic stuff for bicycle manufacture. There is nothing special in cromoly. 853 and especially 931 then again are completely different (there other manufacturers of course who make stainless and air hardening bainitic steels) beasts and can justifiably be called high end steels for high end builds.
I really don't think you can have a high end build without high end steel.
Then again, i wouldn't use 931 as I hear it's more than a bit difficult to work with. That's what you get from almost over 2000MPa...

NeilGunton

I honestly don't know enough about different steels as they relate to framebuilding to have a meaningful discussion with you about this. However it sounds like you do have some knowledge, so if you're really interested as to why Co-Motion uses what they use, you should give them a call and ask to talk to Dwan Shepard. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to fill you in.

DropBarFan

Koga Signature AFAIK not a custom-sized frame. Koga & some other German builders make some nice sturdy touring bikes (also pioneers with Rohloff & belt drive) but I can't figure what's up w/them ignoring drop-bar tourers. Trad French & British high-end touring bikes had drop bars. It's not as if Germany has terrible roads/paths that demand using a flat bar for control. & I doubt that many Euros would use a $2K touring bike for daily use anyway.

Tourist in MSN

I use the drops on drop bars about 30 percent of the time, but when I weighed 30 pounds more than I weigh now, I probably only used the drops maybe 5 percent of the time. Maybe the customers of the German bike manufacturers ... ...

DropBarFan

In Germany some cyclists order a Radler (Pilsener w/fizzy lemonade) or "Russ" (which sounds even more refreshing--Weissbier w/fizzy lemonade). In Germany there's plenty of folks that ride drop-bar road bikes for fun/fitness but seems like it's just not considered appropriate for touring/commuting.

elcruxio

Probably since in middle europe

Drop bar = sport

Other bars = leisure / other

Touring =/= sport

LeeG

Putting in a word for "excessively long" chainstays, I had a 56cm 700c LHT that rode like a train but the 26" version with same length chainstays doesn't. Likewise a Felt Cafe with 19 1/2" chainstays handled less train like than the 700c LHT. My $.02 long chainstays help for rear biased loads and the rest of the geometry matters more for handling.

northerntier

The company quotes 500–1000 miles for a break-in period. I've had my Thorn Nomad w/ rolloff for 8000 and it's still noisy. Great for commuting, though.

Tourist in MSN

My Rohloff is quieter after an oil change. But gears 7 and below are still pretty noisy. I do not hear any noise in gears 8 thru 14. I knew about the noise in the lower gears before I bought it so I did not have any expectation for a silent bike.

Jim Kukula

I've got about 13K miles on my Rohloff and I would say that gear 7 is finally starting to quiet down!

Scummer

I just received my custom build stainless steel Norwid Aaland with Rohloff, Gates belt drive, S&S, SON SL disc, Edelux II, TRP Hylex disc brakes and a Tubus rear rack.
Setup for the Gates drive is 55x22.
I rode the bike on Sunday for 144km and compared to by carbon race bike this bike glides like a caddy on air suspension. So smooth, rock solid and the gearing just right. I can go in the 14th gear 45km/h at a comfortable 80rpm, climbing a short, steeper climb at 6 or 7 comfortably. Gear 5/6/7 is noisy and you can feel it in the crank as well. But that's a design feature of the Rohloff planet gears. I haven't tried out gear 1-4 yet, as I have found anything steep enough to have to use that gear. Also the ride was without any gear, just myself. So with an additional 20-25kilo i might have to use the lower gears to climb.

The belt drive has no slack whatsoever. It engages like a chain, hard and crisp. The drive is silent, no noise from the drive train at all. Basically you just hear the tires going over the road surface, that's it.

The S&S couplers are solid, the frame feels as solid as if it had no couplers in it.

Hydraulic disc brakes are awesome. Easy to modulate, and with two fingers you can produce an emergency stop. My well setup carbon road bike does stop on a dime as well, but weighs almost 33% less and when it rains it takes longer for the rim brakes to engage.

Here are a few pics of my new tourer.
Don't mind the front wheel right now. The rim was busted when it shipped, so I had to throw an old 28er from my spare parts bin on it.

Rohloff with disc brakes and Weber coupling


Rohloff with disc brakes and gates drive.


Brushed stainless steel with S&S couplers.

Tourist in MSN

I put a piece of electrical tape around each end of the S&S "nuts" to keep the crud out of the S&S threads. This is most obvious how much stuff is thrown up onto the coupler in the photo that was taken in winter.



That is a very nice looking bike.

Scummer

Thanks. The electrical tape wrap looks like a very good idea. I need to do that myself as I'm planning on commuting during the Winter on that bike as well.

skookum

I'm enough of a retro grouch that I can't quite get my head around carbon belt drives. I see their advantages, they're totally cool, but how well they do over time, and what problems will people have with them?

Various types of stainless appears to be the new trend in steel frames.Its interesting how technology advances, steel frames were supposed to be dead by now.

Scummer

The belt drive is supposedly easier to maintain,since no oil is needed,it sheds dirt and grime. No noise. Supposed to last 10000km compared to a chain 3000km. I will know by the end of this year if it holds true.