indyfabz

Where do people who have a real need for weapons and defense mechanisms tour? Pakistan? Of more interest is where do you live. I have lived in Philly nearly all of my 50 years and have never been in a situation where I needed pepper spray or something more "effective." And certainly never while touring. Maybe I live a charmed life. Maybe there is a guardian angel watching over me. Or maybe some of you have been influenced my external sources to the point where you feel there is a threat lurking around every corner.

Someone from Wyoming started a thread last week about touring with a firearm to ward of animals and, more importantly, people. (The thread seems to have gone missing.) Wyoming is the least populated state in the nation and is supposed to be edenic, at least if you believe most people from the state. Indeed, Laramie is nicknamed "Laradise." Maybe I should never return to Wyoming if it's so darn dangerous.

elcruxio

You can of course use that line of argumentation but I mean you can extend that to pretty much everything from bicycle helmets to rear brakes. "don't want 'em, don't need 'em"
I live in Scandinavia which is probably the safest place on the planet in every possible aspect. Nonetheless I've seen enough violence and bad people even here to make me a bit fidgety and untrusting. I work in the criminal justice system so I feel I'm justified to be suspicous of everyone. Last summer we were touring in the local archipelago which is probably the safest place in Scandinavia and even there some of our stuff got stolen.

So now that we're heading to Europe what I'm mostly worried about is
- Roma, ie. gypsies. Highway robbery is a thing that does happen in Europe and it's on the rise. I'm not giving up my stuff without a fight.
- Common drunkards. I've had drunk people try to hit me, push me, run after me and otherwise attack while I've cycled past them.
- Slum types. You can find these from every major city and since we're going unplanned it's more than likely that we might at some point ride past some place where you can find these people. An expensive bike with lotsa gear makes for a nice spontaneous theft / robbery
- Dogs. If a dog runs after me, it's getting sprayed. Not gonna take risks on this regard.
- The fact that I'm not going alone, but rather I'm touring with my SO. Nothing is going to happen to her if I'm still kickin'. Running is the best option, but if the getaway route is blocked the weapons come out (somebody has their hand on her handlebar etc). Usually just opening a telescopic baton has enough of a psychological effect that a way will open.
- There's a lot of petty thievery in Europe due to high tourism rates. It's likely that a theft is not going to turn into a robbery, but I like to be prepared.

People are much, much worse than you believe them to be.

350htrr

20 years ago I would have scoffed at the thought of needing bear spray, today not so much. I probably see over 50 bears a year and probably pass by a hundred more that I don't even know are there while riding around here and over the years have noticed a big change in some bears attitude... 20 years ago 100% of all bears I did see basically got out of the way and were weary of people and avoided them. Today not so much 50% run away, 40% just sit there watching you, but 10% are not afraid and even come towards you, some seem fairly aggressive... ( made up % as I see it) So carrying bear spray started to look like a good idea about 10 years ago when one bear actually charged and acted belligerent towards me. I certainly wouldn't rely on anything other than bear spray to use on a bear, experimenting with a last line of defence seems stupid to me. JMO

Vintage_Cyclist

In the US pepper spray laws vary. A few states are restrictive on the % of oleoresin capsicum and/or the volume of liquid that can be in a canister. Likewise, some states consider the possession of batons, telescoping or not, by civilians as illegal.

arctos

I have surprisingly survived decades of lengthy bike, backpack and kayak tours in Alaska, Alberta, B.Columbia, Montana, Idaho and Wyoming among Grizzly and black bears in those areas. I also lived off the grid in NW Montana next to the Cabinet Wilderness for two years. (That is where the "bad" bears from Glacier and Yellowstone N Parks are dumped.) I always practice clean camping and food hanging or used bear barrels for food storage and have had no dangerous incidents from many encounters. Most of all I just paid attention to my surroundings with my ears ,eyes and nose.

I carry no weapons- firearm or Bear spray. A surprised and armed camper/cyclist will more likely anger a Grizzly than kill one. A firearm often provides a false sense of security which is exposed when you are shooting at a charging angry Grizzly. I am also lazy and do not want to carry the extra pounds of weapon and ammo.. I also rarely camp in designated campgrounds where animals are habituated to humans.
(Yes, I own guns, was trained how to use them by my Dad and the FBI and can shoot very well. Does my law enforcement experience qualify me to make the above comments?)

I also learned to use ammonia around the four corners of my tent on small sponges. This was an upscale version of the "pee at each corner" advice given to me by a Blackfoot tribe member while backpacking in Montana long ago. I was skeptical but I have seen too many Alaskan Brown, Grizzlies and Black bears approach my tent and veer away when they encounter the ammonia sponges. I have no research to confirm this outcome other than my own direct experience. Maybe I have just been lucky so far.

veganbikes

Being smart is always the way to go. Being armed is only to be done if you are truly able to stay calm in the most extreme of situations and know your weapon and can handle it but only if absolutely needed. If you are in someone else's home maybe be neat and clean and stay out of their way as you would anywhere else.

indyfabz

Or maybe it's you.

What I really find funny is the people who obviously think the scenario plays out like the scene from one Dirty Harry film where Harry confronts three armed guys who are robbing bank or something and have hostages. He tells the crooks "we're" not just going to let you walk out of here. One crook responds Who's we?!?!" While slowly pulling his 357 from his front jacket pocket Harry says "Me and Smith & Wesson" and then blows them away.

Let me tell you what is far more realistic, especially here in the big city....Someone surprises you with a punch to the face, fracturing an occipital bone and knocking you out cold. If he happens to find you armed while searching for your wallet or phone while you are face down on the sidewalk it might be used on you. Or maybe it will used to shoot a cop or child during another crime. Another far more likely scenario is that out of nowhere someone puts a *** in face and demands whatever. Assuming he doesn't shoot you from the git go, you so much as cuddle out a fart, much less reach for some weapon, and you are as dead as fried chicken.

BTW...I had to deter two dogs on Saturday who came off a porch, ran about 30 yards to the middle of the road and blocked the way of the GF and I. As usual, using my voice to show them who was top dog worked wonders. Didn't even have to waste any water.

RR3

Philly Punks wouldn't be so embrazed if that hellhole of a city did not take its citizens right to self defense under the second amendment.

elcruxio

I didn't mention I also used to work for private security and had quite a few situations where I had to use force against other people. Sometimes I had to engage the situation. Sometimes I was attacked. I've also been in a situation on my freetime where someone was actively trying to kill me, almost succeeding. I think I have some experience how these things work.
One thing you learn pretty quick is to assume an attack every single time someone comes into your 'personal' space, be it in a crowded city street or an empty subway station. Most of the time you don't get sucker punched but when you expect it at every occasion it's not so likely to actually get sucker punched.

Also one nice thing about Europe that's exceptionally nice when compared to the States. We don't have guns. Or, we do, but gun crime is much much lower than in the states. A robbery is likely to occur with a knife or whatever. If the perp has a knife and I have gas + baton I still have a chance.

staehpj1

FWIW, my observation on my tours has been that:
1. People are generally far nicer than I could have imagined especially in the rural and small town settings where I tour. I think that people tend to be at their worst when crowed more closely together in big cities. Since most of us avoid big cities when touring that isn't a problem for most of us.
2. The one guy who I met on tour that expected the worst from people was the one guy who constantly had problems with them. People tend to rise or fall to met your expectations. If you are generous, open, and friendly you will mostly meet folks who are generous open and friendly.
3. I personally have usually felt that I was safer on tour than at home, in part because I lived in Baltimore and toured through mostly rural small towns. So I figure that extra protection was not needed on tour. I'd be more likely to carry some kind of protection at home than on the road.

Steve B.

Could you maybe clue me in on where and when these incidents occurred ?

Ive been bike commuting the Rocks for 25 years off and on, Seagirt, Edgemere, Shore Front and Rockaway Beach Blvd thru Jacob Riis.

Ive never, ever even seen a dog, much less a pack.

Skeptical.

SB

plumberroy

Being smart and being aware of you surroundings gets you through 99.9 of being outside I have never had an incident with a wild animal I wasn't messin' with . Most of the dog encounters , I went looking because the dogs had been a problem all ready I took it to them .
I also am a realist If I was in big bear country I know If one of the big bears charges for real ( Which I know is rare)
1. If I am not all ready aware of the bear you ain't going to get a shot
2. If I am ready for it I will only get 1 shot, charges are usually for 30 yards or less a grisly can cover 30 yards in less than 2 seconds
3. Even with being aware and getting a shot off chances of stopping a bear stone cold dead is 50/50 and it can do a lot of damage in the last few seconds of it's life so avoidance is the best choice
On the ammonia I can see were that would work We would carry ammonia and cotton to break hunting dogs of digging in the ground put the ammonia soaked cotton in the hole and the dog won't go back in I know that works.
As far as carrying ,,,, several game animals I like better than store bought meat. It is also better for you . Many times removing nuisance animals are a condition of getting access to land to just be outside alone on .
Roy

Vintage_Cyclist

Here's a few articles. I don't view this as much of a condition for bicycle riders, particularly those commuting on roads, who are not an appealing target. The development of the former dumping ground at Arverne into housing has probably helped alleviate places for wild dogs to congregate.

Woman Attacked By Vicious Stray Dogs Sues City

Dog mauls mom, 2 children in Rockaway

Wild Dogs Free to Attack Again

Dog Pack Attacks 2 Joggers in Rockaways

Far Rockaway Will Get Wild Dog Response Team

A Rockin' Fundraiser for Rockaway Dogs

veganbikes

It makes a ton of sense. Most folks in smaller towns are intrigued or baffled when you say you are biking with all of your stuff and are usually quite nice. The city people are rude and nasty mostly because nobody wants to be there and they see bikes all the time, smaller towns might not.

I might have protection if I plan on riding through private property a bunch without permission but small towns are usually pretty chill. I don't hear a whole lot of bad things happening to cyclists (aside from incidents with vehicles which happen everywhere) in smaller areas but in the big cities they happen quite often.

Generally any dog who might attack someone is regarded as a pitbull or rottweiller even if that is not the actual case. It is the media's fault. There is a possibility of attacks but probably not a whole lot. Most of the incidents posted by Vintage are over ten years old.

However there are some bad people up there who do use actual American Pitbull Terriers and Stafordshire terriers for breeding, fighting or just mistreat them in other ways. I have friends up there who do Pitty rescue but from what they said last time I talked with them it is mostly dog on dog violence these days and the strays aren't as prevalent.

Of course the answer lies not in demonizing the dogs as some would do but to get them to loving homes and punish the humans who mistreat them and breed them. Not saying anyone here believes that just saying it as a statement

robmcl

Grizzly bears are notorious for being difficult to kill with a firearm. This has been documented all the way back to Lewis and Clark. Some science goes into the choice of firearm for killing a grizzly and people who think they are going to stop one with a hand gun are ignorant. Two, three years ago there was an incident on the Montana Idaho border where a hunter encountered a grizzly while hunting elk. He unload his 30/06 rifle on the bear. The bear killed him and left. From what I read bear spray and other maneuvers are way more effective.

Carbonfiberboy 

Studies show that those who used firearms in a bear situation were more likely to be killed than those who had no protection at all. The same thing applies to human attacks. OTOH, bear spray has been effective in 90% of bear attacks. The other 10% . . .
The trick is apparently to discharge the spray at exactly the right moment.

The thing about the jersey pocket sort of thing is that by the time you get the thing out and the cap off, it's already too late. Wild critters move fast. What you really want is two bear canisters hung around your neck on a cord, ready for use. That's what my Alaskan hunter friends advise. That's quite a look to rock on a bike. They'd dig that in Baltimore.

That guy who had his tent eaten by a wolf on the Alcan could have used some spray, that's for sure.

Steve B.

You realize of course, that some of these articles are of incidents that occurred in 2001 , 2002, 2003, etc... ? So 12 or more years ago and by now, those dogs have been dead a long time.

There's one report from last March of a Rotweiler in Arverne.

I'm riding thru here tommorrow and Friday and while skeptical that it was ever the problem as the articles cited, having never, as stated, ever seen a dog in this area, I will pay closer attention especially in the 20 block stretch around B30-60.

indyfabz

Saw a bear yesterday at about mile 20 of this route:

MR. B - A bike ride in Frenchtown, NJ

Got within maybe 10 yards at its closest. No spray. No AR-whatever. No howitzer. Just an iPhone to shoot it. And then we rode on. I'll post a link to the video once it's out there. In the rush, my GF turned on the video instead of taking a still and didn't realize it. Funny that a 5' tall women wasn't scared. Some people in this thread could learn something from her.

ak08820

With all due respect to the courageous folks who bring us the amazing videos on PBS and National Geo. TV, etc.,
the young man who was killed by a bear in 2014 a few tens miles from your ride path was doing exactly what you described.
See Student took this photo of a bear just before it killed him | New York Post

The outcome of the above event might have been different if he had a bear spray.

indyfabz

From the accounts that I read, those hikers were being stalked. That is a totally different situation. You don't mess around when you are being stalked, and the group should not have split up. Also, they were on foot. We were on bikes on a pretty steep descent. The bear was actually trying to get away from us. He crossed from one side of the road to a small wooded area on the other side. We came riding long. He wanted to continue in the direction he was heading but there was a house back there and there was someone outside doing work. The six of us were not there that long because we wanted to make sure he didn't feel threatened by being boxed in.

Get out on the road instead of developing doom and gloom scenarios based things you read, especially in the New York Post. BTW...Do you text and/or talk on the phone while driving?

350htrr

Funny thing is, everything can be perfectly fine... Until it isn't, then it can all go horribly wrong... Having bear spray on one in bear country is PRUDENT and being PREPARED is... Not stupid or because one is scared... JMO

Erick L

The best alternative is touring with someone slower than you.

staehpj1

What we don't know is how many of those times the person would have been OK without the spray. Just because someone used the spray and was OK doesn't mean they wouldn't have been OK without it. My point isn't that it didn't help, but just that there is no way to know whether it prevented an unfavorable outcome or not.

CharlyAlfaRomeo

Not exactly the kind of thing anyone is going to sign up to test now are they?

There's seriously a lot of stupid things being said in this thread. Just like 350htrr mentioned everything is fine until it's not, and then you better be prepared. It's great when you and a bear see each other coming and neither party is startled, and 99.999% of the time encounters are peaceful but that's not always the case.

It is very easy to get between a mother and her cubs, or a male and a female who is in heat or surprise a bear by approaching from downwind or without a clear sight line just like this Provincial Park employee a week or so ago:

Man injured after surprising a bear in Kananaskis Country | Calgary Herald

FWIW I grew up visiting the Yukon territory during summers as a kid (father is a geologist), weekends at our cabin near Golden, BC and just generally spend a lot of time in the bush and while having encountered a hundred or more black and grizzly bears in my life I've never had a bad experience. That being said I always carry bear spray on hikes in populated areas plus there's always been a very large bore rifle around at geology camps, our cabin or while camping in the back country.

indyfabz

The OP has never even toured and, unless I missed it, has failed to answer my question regarding the motivation for this entire thread (i.e., where is he going to be touring that he thinks he might need bear repellant.) There is a whiff of troll in the air.