Upright riding position for touring - Comfort
08-29-15, 02:28 PM
#126
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Rawklobster did you get the bosco's and do you like them? I was going to PM you but I can't till I get 50 posts.
i want to ride upright also. Curious where you're going to buy them at. Is your bike a single speed or multiple speed?
Best,
lonny
i want to ride upright also. Curious where you're going to buy them at. Is your bike a single speed or multiple speed?
Best,
lonny
09-02-15, 11:25 PM
#128
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Some things to consider when opting for a more upright riding position:
1. There will be more weight on the saddle. I'm not saying this to discourage you, but just to let you know that you will likely need to deal with the extra weight on the saddle in some way. This might mean adjusting your riding distance during tours or choosing a different saddle that better accommodates a more upright riding position. Most likely a combination of both will be needed.
2. Drop bars are more comfortable in some ways. That's right, more comfortable. A properly fit drop bar offers a greater variety of hand positions than a flat bar, even with bar ends mounted. Alternating between the positions alleviates discomfort by changing where pressure is applied to the hands and also by varying the back angle. Most people think that drop bars automatically place you in a low aero position, but this is affected by how they are fit. There are many options to fit a drop bar up so high that you'd actually be bent over more on some bikes with flat bars. You should keep this in mind as a possible option and possibly do some testing to see if the drop bar in a higher position works well for you. If you just can't get the drop bar to work comfortably then go with a flat bar. Plenty of people happily tour with flat bars. Just be prepared work a little harder to solve the possible issues the flat bar might introduce, need for bar ends, reasonable distance goals that don't leave you frustrated and unhappy.
3. Really upright riding positions on bikes that were not designed originally with this intention end up being "tail heavy" this can cause handling issues that could lead to an accident if you're not careful. If you load the bike down for touring including adding weight to the front, well that should take care of it, however if you are just using a rear rack, maybe that makes matters worse. You can ride such a bike safely, but you need to know to shift your weight forward (maybe tuck down a bit to achieve this) on rough descents that can cause you to lose front wheel traction. That happens in a turn and you're done for.
1. There will be more weight on the saddle. I'm not saying this to discourage you, but just to let you know that you will likely need to deal with the extra weight on the saddle in some way. This might mean adjusting your riding distance during tours or choosing a different saddle that better accommodates a more upright riding position. Most likely a combination of both will be needed.
2. Drop bars are more comfortable in some ways. That's right, more comfortable. A properly fit drop bar offers a greater variety of hand positions than a flat bar, even with bar ends mounted. Alternating between the positions alleviates discomfort by changing where pressure is applied to the hands and also by varying the back angle. Most people think that drop bars automatically place you in a low aero position, but this is affected by how they are fit. There are many options to fit a drop bar up so high that you'd actually be bent over more on some bikes with flat bars. You should keep this in mind as a possible option and possibly do some testing to see if the drop bar in a higher position works well for you. If you just can't get the drop bar to work comfortably then go with a flat bar. Plenty of people happily tour with flat bars. Just be prepared work a little harder to solve the possible issues the flat bar might introduce, need for bar ends, reasonable distance goals that don't leave you frustrated and unhappy.
3. Really upright riding positions on bikes that were not designed originally with this intention end up being "tail heavy" this can cause handling issues that could lead to an accident if you're not careful. If you load the bike down for touring including adding weight to the front, well that should take care of it, however if you are just using a rear rack, maybe that makes matters worse. You can ride such a bike safely, but you need to know to shift your weight forward (maybe tuck down a bit to achieve this) on rough descents that can cause you to lose front wheel traction. That happens in a turn and you're done for.
2) But isn't a variety of hand positions is only required to alleviate hand pressure if there is a lot of pressure on the hands. In any case, the Nitto Bosco has many ergonomic hand positions to choose from. I'm definitely not arguing that drops aren't comfortable with lots of positions. But the Rohloff (while there are many options for drops) is much more elegant on the bar I'm considering.
3) I didn't know putting more weight on the front would alleviate weight on the back. But I guess you could distribute some to the front. That said, with Big Apple tires, a custom frame, as well as going slow, I don't foresee a problem. I would go really fast on my Trike, but I was sturdy on three wheels, and only had to lean to not flip. I'd be willing to walk down hills if I felt I'd be going too fast. Turn my trip into a hike for a bit.
Just to be clear, I'm not riding *completely upright*. Just more upright. As in the least aggressive position while still bent over and requiring little to no wight on the hands.
I think the degree to which I'm willing to compromise is beyond what most bike riders are willing to give up for comfort. I totally get that.
09-02-15, 11:27 PM
#129
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
He's considering a Bosco Bar which also has many hand positions. I ride drop bars and upright Bosco's and do find the Bosco's to be more comfortable than the drops but I can easily ride for hours on my drops.
I used the upright bike for my commute on Friday and I'm really not much slower on it than I am on drops even though I would have bet I would be. My commute is suburbs through city with around 7 miles being on the Pittsburgh portion of the Great Allegheny Passage, flat. I logged this during on my way into work as the trails are less crowded in the morning. The other 7 miles is on city streets with 2 1/2 miles being a nice downhill ride. I'm subject to traffic lights, traffic and I have to carry my bike up a flight of steps to get onto a bridge all of which affects my average speed. (Friday was a particularly good day as traffic was light)
Time to work on Novara Randonee fitted with Bosco's...
I used the upright bike for my commute on Friday and I'm really not much slower on it than I am on drops even though I would have bet I would be. My commute is suburbs through city with around 7 miles being on the Pittsburgh portion of the Great Allegheny Passage, flat. I logged this during on my way into work as the trails are less crowded in the morning. The other 7 miles is on city streets with 2 1/2 miles being a nice downhill ride. I'm subject to traffic lights, traffic and I have to carry my bike up a flight of steps to get onto a bridge all of which affects my average speed. (Friday was a particularly good day as traffic was light)
Time to work on Novara Randonee fitted with Bosco's...
Last edited by rawklobster; 09-02-15 at 11:41 PM.
09-02-15, 11:34 PM
#130
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
All I really suggest is give all options a chance since you don't know which is better for you until you try it for yourself. I still think that the Bosco bar does not vary hand pressure like a drop bar does, but everyone is different and you need to find your own best solution.
As far as the performance goes, yeah, I think you can pull off some pretty decent times on an upright bike for about 15 miles. Here is something that I noticed when I started doing some "mini" unsupported tandem tours with some friends:
Each of the tandem teams to participate were of similar skill levels. At one time or another, depending on training time available, each one of the teams has outperformed the others. We are all pretty closely matched in rider performance and bicycle quality.
The first year, we go with a B.O.B. trailer. It's a little frustrating since we have to ride in back all the time as nobody wants to get whipped in the face with a flag pole. The flats at the beginning though, we are doing great and it doesn't feel like we are putting out any extra effort. It gets really ugly at the first real climb though. I've never felt such a quick drop in ability to keep up. We struggle on hills the entire tour. I blame this mostly on the extra weight, but also aerodynamics.
The next tour, I decide this isn't going to happen again. The trunk rack/panniers I considered using the year before but dismissed as being too small were not much smaller than one of the other teams bags. On this tour, we are the first to the top of almost every hill and there is no struggling. The only tandem that every beats us to the top of a hill is the one that has also used a narrower pannier. Weights taken after the tour show that all teams carried about the same weight regardless of pannier size. The only time the bikes tend to get separated is on long climbs.
Now here's something really interesting. We do a two day ride to Oakhurst and back with one other tandem couple. It's the same couple that had the narrower panniers, only this time they have wider panniers. We still have our narrow bags. The ride begins with lots of flats at the beginning where we stay together. We pull ahead on the final climb. The next day the climb starts almost immediately and it's my stoker and I that are struggling to keep up, although towards the finish on the flats, I sense the other tandem is laboring more to keep up although do keep up the entire way. Could it be that we wore ourselves out the first day? Possibly, but I don't think so. I wouldn't expect to recover so well later that day in that case. I attribute this all to the aerodynamics of the panniers.
A human is not like a car engine. You can usually dig in a little bit to get through and sometimes you don't always realize you are doing it. On a 15 mile or less ride, you might think that performance is really close, but those differences perceived as tiny eventually catch up with you.
As far as the performance goes, yeah, I think you can pull off some pretty decent times on an upright bike for about 15 miles. Here is something that I noticed when I started doing some "mini" unsupported tandem tours with some friends:
Each of the tandem teams to participate were of similar skill levels. At one time or another, depending on training time available, each one of the teams has outperformed the others. We are all pretty closely matched in rider performance and bicycle quality.
The first year, we go with a B.O.B. trailer. It's a little frustrating since we have to ride in back all the time as nobody wants to get whipped in the face with a flag pole. The flats at the beginning though, we are doing great and it doesn't feel like we are putting out any extra effort. It gets really ugly at the first real climb though. I've never felt such a quick drop in ability to keep up. We struggle on hills the entire tour. I blame this mostly on the extra weight, but also aerodynamics.
The next tour, I decide this isn't going to happen again. The trunk rack/panniers I considered using the year before but dismissed as being too small were not much smaller than one of the other teams bags. On this tour, we are the first to the top of almost every hill and there is no struggling. The only tandem that every beats us to the top of a hill is the one that has also used a narrower pannier. Weights taken after the tour show that all teams carried about the same weight regardless of pannier size. The only time the bikes tend to get separated is on long climbs.
Now here's something really interesting. We do a two day ride to Oakhurst and back with one other tandem couple. It's the same couple that had the narrower panniers, only this time they have wider panniers. We still have our narrow bags. The ride begins with lots of flats at the beginning where we stay together. We pull ahead on the final climb. The next day the climb starts almost immediately and it's my stoker and I that are struggling to keep up, although towards the finish on the flats, I sense the other tandem is laboring more to keep up although do keep up the entire way. Could it be that we wore ourselves out the first day? Possibly, but I don't think so. I wouldn't expect to recover so well later that day in that case. I attribute this all to the aerodynamics of the panniers.
A human is not like a car engine. You can usually dig in a little bit to get through and sometimes you don't always realize you are doing it. On a 15 mile or less ride, you might think that performance is really close, but those differences perceived as tiny eventually catch up with you.
09-02-15, 11:38 PM
#131
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Hey Lonny... Still way off from having the bike built. But look up the Bosco bars.... They look great! Unsure where I'll source them. Might leave it to the bike builders. I'll be using a Rohloff hub, so multiple speed. Just be careful of sit up and beg upright for touring. Probably OK for 30-40km/day, but for 100km/day, you want to be bent a little, I think. I will let you know how it goes!
09-02-15, 11:47 PM
#132
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 196
Bikes: Giant TCR, Santana Team Scandium, Co-Motion Equator, Giant NRS Carbon
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
1) Yes! Definitely going to address more weight on the seat. Big Apple tires, Spring Brooks saddle, and riding for no more than 30 minutes at a time. Which is about how often I stopped on the Pacific Coast Highway.
2) But isn't a variety of hand positions is only required to alleviate hand pressure if there is a lot of pressure on the hands. In any case, the Nitto Bosco has many ergonomic hand positions to choose from. I'm definitely not arguing that drops aren't comfortable with lots of positions. But the Rohloff (while there are many options for drops) is much more elegant on the bar I'm considering.
3) I didn't know putting more weight on the front would alleviate weight on the back. But I guess you could distribute some to the front. That said, with Big Apple tires, a custom frame, as well as going slow, I don't foresee a problem. I would go really fast on my Trike, but I was sturdy on three wheels, and only had to lean to not flip. I'd be willing to walk down hills if I felt I'd be going too fast. Turn my trip into a hike for a bit.
Just to be clear, I'm not riding *completely upright*. Just more upright. As in the least aggressive position while still bent over and requiring little to no wight on the hands.
I think the degree to which I'm willing to compromise is beyond what most bike riders are willing to give up for comfort. I totally get that.
2) But isn't a variety of hand positions is only required to alleviate hand pressure if there is a lot of pressure on the hands. In any case, the Nitto Bosco has many ergonomic hand positions to choose from. I'm definitely not arguing that drops aren't comfortable with lots of positions. But the Rohloff (while there are many options for drops) is much more elegant on the bar I'm considering.
3) I didn't know putting more weight on the front would alleviate weight on the back. But I guess you could distribute some to the front. That said, with Big Apple tires, a custom frame, as well as going slow, I don't foresee a problem. I would go really fast on my Trike, but I was sturdy on three wheels, and only had to lean to not flip. I'd be willing to walk down hills if I felt I'd be going too fast. Turn my trip into a hike for a bit.
Just to be clear, I'm not riding *completely upright*. Just more upright. As in the least aggressive position while still bent over and requiring little to no wight on the hands.
I think the degree to which I'm willing to compromise is beyond what most bike riders are willing to give up for comfort. I totally get that.
2. Unless you are in a beach cruiser upright position, there's going to be hand pressure. Your breaks every 30 minutes might take care of it though.
3. It a center of gravity issue. You move more weight to the front it can correct for the center of gravity being off. You want something holding the wheel down on bumpy descents. That can be more baggage weight distributed to the front or it could be you leaning forward on any sections that could be a problem. Yeah, walking down the hill could be an option but shouldn't be necessary.
09-03-15, 12:38 AM
#133
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
My hope is through my fitting and experimenting that I will discover that I can be comfortable without the expense of comfort with a lower position that you suggest. And without padded shorts and butt'r. *smile* But forgive me if I don't expect it will be as comfortable.
In general the power part of the position doesn't change much due to the bars you use. At our kind of output the position is probably going to be similar 73 degree seat tube dialed in. I use that same approach for most things. I don't see how one would be more comfortable without the seat pad or peneten. The body is doing the same stuff either way. A regiment of extremely slow pedalling might do something. But that isn't bar dependant. Your upright position with whatever bars is going to put more weight on your seat, so how are you moving the needle.
Using non-drop bars is perfectly rationale, if accompanied by the right reasons.
09-03-15, 12:55 AM
#134
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
2) But isn't a variety of hand positions is only required to alleviate hand pressure if there is a lot of pressure on the hands. In any case, the Nitto Bosco has many ergonomic hand positions to choose from. I'm definitely not arguing that drops aren't comfortable with lots of positions. But the Rohloff (while there are many options for drops) is much more elegant on the bar I'm considering.
The Rohloff non-sequetur suggests that particularly for a custom, you may not have pushed far enough into what is available, there is some cool stuff for drops.
I think the degree to which I'm willing to compromise is beyond what most bike riders are willing to give up for comfort. I totally get that.
09-03-15, 12:58 AM
#135
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
I never get out of the saddle, I just keep spinning. I like it unloaded though my problems leave it feeling weird, and I haven't worked through that yet. Getting out of the saddle is very wasteful if you are kinda slowpoking it.
09-03-15, 12:58 AM
#136
Senior Member
a couple questions related to this thread.....if switching to butterfly bars....
i assume you can mount them with the open end forward or rear. anyone here
try both setups? advantages/disadvantages to each?
how about mounting handlebar bags with quick-release mounts. any issues?
bags too wide to fit inside the bends? if so, what options are there other
than attach bag to front platform rack, or mount second stem?
i assume you can mount them with the open end forward or rear. anyone here
try both setups? advantages/disadvantages to each?
how about mounting handlebar bags with quick-release mounts. any issues?
bags too wide to fit inside the bends? if so, what options are there other
than attach bag to front platform rack, or mount second stem?
09-03-15, 01:14 AM
#138
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
I'm going to pay some money to get fitted to a bike that is in the store at MEC, and see how comfy I can be. I'm also going to experiment with my Pashley upright and bike 100km and see what pain I experience (likely sitting bones despite a wide, sprung broken in saddle). I'm not against non-upright riding if it's comfortable, but so far it's the only non-issue riding I have experienced. But as I said, I was never properly fitted, but that just revealed pain experiences that *could* occur if it's not perfect.
I should add that I feel more comfortable building a bike with a more upright position, and then lowering it if I feel I need. And perhaps even adding drop bars. I think the geometry of the bike will be the same for the builder whether it's upright or hunched.
I should add that I feel more comfortable building a bike with a more upright position, and then lowering it if I feel I need. And perhaps even adding drop bars. I think the geometry of the bike will be the same for the builder whether it's upright or hunched.
There is a French fit calculator online that I find pretty helpful.
Longer chainstays, as long as you can get on the bike, will help some of your ride issues.
The war of words is fun, but as you say you can always fit other bars (and parts). If your test rides takes you out to Pick ering, we should go for a ride. I ate at the all you can eat last night, so it is pretty safe riding...
Pashley porn for the other punters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M9w9fC7tg
09-03-15, 07:41 AM
#139
Senior Member
I've done both. The bars are pretty symetrical, so I don't really think there's a difference in that respect. The difference for me was that I could not get my shifter and brake levers around the bends, so they were always at the open end of the bars. When they were on a bike with a decent amount of reach and a fairly upright position, I put the open side towards me and only used the far side when I wanted to stretch. When I put them on a bike without much reach, I flipped them the other way to give myself a little more reach.
09-03-15, 08:31 AM
#140
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 745
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
To me that is all nonsense. The bars you are using do not make a lick of difference to your default high or low position. Bar type changes a lot of things but if you don't even get that, you are dealing with bad info.
In general the power part of the position doesn't change much due to the bars you use. At our kind of output the position is probably going to be similar 73 degree seat tube dialed in. I use that same approach for most things. I don't see how one would be more comfortable without the seat pad or peneten. The body is doing the same stuff either way. A regiment of extremely slow pedalling might do something. But that isn't bar dependant. Your upright position with whatever bars is going to put more weight on your seat, so how are you moving the needle.
Using non-drop bars is perfectly rationale, if accompanied by the right reasons.
In general the power part of the position doesn't change much due to the bars you use. At our kind of output the position is probably going to be similar 73 degree seat tube dialed in. I use that same approach for most things. I don't see how one would be more comfortable without the seat pad or peneten. The body is doing the same stuff either way. A regiment of extremely slow pedalling might do something. But that isn't bar dependant. Your upright position with whatever bars is going to put more weight on your seat, so how are you moving the needle.
Using non-drop bars is perfectly rationale, if accompanied by the right reasons.
Maybe it's the brooks saddles on my bikes or that I have a calloused arse as knock on wood I don't chaffe or get perineum pain, I ride with smartwool underwear and gym shorts, I'm too self conscious and cheap to wear spandex. My arse is a bit sore on all bikes after 50 miles and by 90 it's really sore, I have done 90 on the AWOL and Randonee/Bosco but not the Vaya. In any case the first 15 or so minutes the day after are a bit uncomfortable but once I get into the groove I'm good for the rest of the day. Maybe it's old age or riding with cleats but the biggest problem I'm having lately is my toes going numb at around the 40 mile mark, usually what forces me to take a break, may be related to discectomy.
MassiveD my legs don't look like they were hit by a Mack truck but I've had two partial discectiomies which is what led me to seek out more upright/comfortable riding positions. For me the key to riding drop bars comfortably was getting my core strength up though I still don't like riding the lower drops for any length of time as my lower back stiffens up.
I used to spin riding up hill but living in Pittsburgh I have to get out of the saddle on quite a few portions of my uphill commute and am starting to prefer getting out of the saddle more than spinning. Don't know if it's strength or mental but I feel I do better out of the saddle, again that's a more recent discovery for me and am not sure I'm ready to try it fully loaded.
According to my wife over the past 2 years I gotten in better shape than I was in the military, if I choose I can join AARP, so I disagree with her, at least I hope I wasn't that whimpy when I was in the military. However, being in better shape is without a doubt the primary reason I can ride drop bars more comfortably. My lower back issue still makes riding in the drops uncomfortable so I only drop down when trying to maximize downhill speed. Having upright bars on the Randonnee greatly contributed to my success at getting physically stronger so putting it together was a great thing for me and knowing how much good it did me I would build one up again in a heart beat. As I got stronger I wanted to try to push myself harder so got the AWOL, another move I do not regret. My version of touring tends to be four day rides, Pgh to Cumberland and back over a long weekend camping along the way. I have family and prioritize longer vacations around them, at least until I get the last one in college. If I'm riding alone I'll take the AWOL and push hard loaded. If I drag the wife along I carry her gear and mine on the upright Randonee and we converse, reconnect and enjoy the scenery and each others company for a few days. I find that riding with my wife at her pace with drops is very difficult and I get sore wrists fast, she rides 10mph tops.
Wow, that was more long winded than I intended. Sorry, I was typing on and off while working and guess I started rambling.
Last edited by edthesped; 09-03-15 at 08:45 AM.
09-04-15, 04:51 PM
#141
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
1. That should work well. As long as you can set the pace of your tours to your liking. The supported tour I did recently was not that laid back, although at least we didn't need to carry our gear.
2. Unless you are in a beach cruiser upright position, there's going to be hand pressure. Your breaks every 30 minutes might take care of it though.
3. It a center of gravity issue. You move more weight to the front it can correct for the center of gravity being off. You want something holding the wheel down on bumpy descents. That can be more baggage weight distributed to the front or it could be you leaning forward on any sections that could be a problem. Yeah, walking down the hill could be an option but shouldn't be necessary.
2. Unless you are in a beach cruiser upright position, there's going to be hand pressure. Your breaks every 30 minutes might take care of it though.
3. It a center of gravity issue. You move more weight to the front it can correct for the center of gravity being off. You want something holding the wheel down on bumpy descents. That can be more baggage weight distributed to the front or it could be you leaning forward on any sections that could be a problem. Yeah, walking down the hill could be an option but shouldn't be necessary.
2. I think there's a certain amount of hand pressure that does not lead to problems, or isn't noticeable. I do believe the breaks will help.
3. I'll definitely look into front bags. I have read about stability having bags by the wheels, but was thinking more handlebars or front rack trunk than pannier like-bags. But certainly, if I feel I'm out of control, or going too fast, I'll take breaks, and give my brakes a break, as needed. Considering I'm not opposed to hiking, walking with the bike isn't beyond me, provided there is enough shoulder to do it safely.
09-04-15, 05:17 PM
#142
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
To me that is all nonsense. The bars you are using do not make a lick of difference to your default high or low position. Bar type changes a lot of things but if you don't even get that, you are dealing with bad info.
In general the power part of the position doesn't change much due to the bars you use. At our kind of output the position is probably going to be similar 73 degree seat tube dialed in. I use that same approach for most things. I don't see how one would be more comfortable without the seat pad or peneten. The body is doing the same stuff either way. A regiment of extremely slow pedalling might do something. But that isn't bar dependant. Your upright position with whatever bars is going to put more weight on your seat, so how are you moving the needle.
Using non-drop bars is perfectly rationale, if accompanied by the right reasons.
In general the power part of the position doesn't change much due to the bars you use. At our kind of output the position is probably going to be similar 73 degree seat tube dialed in. I use that same approach for most things. I don't see how one would be more comfortable without the seat pad or peneten. The body is doing the same stuff either way. A regiment of extremely slow pedalling might do something. But that isn't bar dependant. Your upright position with whatever bars is going to put more weight on your seat, so how are you moving the needle.
Using non-drop bars is perfectly rationale, if accompanied by the right reasons.
If the bars I am using don't make click of difference, I hope my chosen bars are fine. Drops aren't as elegantly compatible with Rohloff shifters. While there are some cool ways to using a Rohloff with drop bars, I prefer to avoid them and just go with something else, and the Nitto Boscos are the bars I like most, both from a use and aesthetic standpoint.
I think my frequent breaks and more upright position will help. I spoke to my doctor on Monday regarding my riding position, and his main concern wasn't how upright I was, but more to do with back circulation. Poor back circulation would also compromise circulation in the legs and seat. He's going to see about devising a method of improving back circulation to combat the issues I mentioned regarding seat comfort.
I might not get away from using Peneten, but I think I can manage without a seat pad. Again... I usually take frequent breaks, and will not be in the saddle for prolonged periods. But the back and forth for a given distance remains the same, so I'll definitely need to see. I'll definitely be checking my options, but hopefully I can avoid padding. A better understanding of what padding does, that isn't also accomplished by frequent stops will have too be explored.
09-04-15, 05:41 PM
#143
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Again, I think you are kinda off point. Those things address the impact issues. I am sensitive to those, but I get through it somehow. I don't think big apple tires are necessary for any healthy person, but preferred, why not. The real ass killers are related to friction over the seat, and the more forward position (not bar dependant), is some help there in clearing the pelvis a little better, reducing the weight and allowing more movement, less welding to the seat. The pads and creams basically ensure one ends up without any of that causing chaffe.
No the hand positions are not to do with pressure alone, or primaraly, in part because real cyclist don't ride on stiff arms all the time, and they may well wear effective gloves. Hand positions have to do with control, aero, ergo, boredom, etc... To my eyes the Bosco has one good position only.
The Rohloff non-sequetur suggests that particularly for a custom, you may not have pushed far enough into what is available, there is some cool stuff for drops.
You aren't disabled, right? My legs look like they were run over by a mack truck, which is pretty close to what happened. Preference is one thing and why not do it your way, but unless one was seriously disabled, there is no reason for the stuff you suggest, and my experience is that the standard forms work best even considering the level of my disabilities, but that is going to vary by individual.
No the hand positions are not to do with pressure alone, or primaraly, in part because real cyclist don't ride on stiff arms all the time, and they may well wear effective gloves. Hand positions have to do with control, aero, ergo, boredom, etc... To my eyes the Bosco has one good position only.
The Rohloff non-sequetur suggests that particularly for a custom, you may not have pushed far enough into what is available, there is some cool stuff for drops.
You aren't disabled, right? My legs look like they were run over by a mack truck, which is pretty close to what happened. Preference is one thing and why not do it your way, but unless one was seriously disabled, there is no reason for the stuff you suggest, and my experience is that the standard forms work best even considering the level of my disabilities, but that is going to vary by individual.
Yeah, I probably am off point. My main reason for Big Apples are for comfort, and they have good specs in terns of puncture proof, rolling resistance, and wet weather performance. Friction is definitely an enemy. Hopefully I don't have too much of either. I hope the wide saddle will distribute the weight and hopefully reduce butt pain.
I have not explored fore - aft seating, but less welding to the seat sounds good!
Crossing my fingers for no chaffing. I did use some stuff on my nipples when I would run half-marathons. It was in a speed-stick like container, and did a great job. Used some on my inner thighs when I forgot to dry my running shorts and used normal shorts and underwear instead.
As for stiff arms, I don't plan on riding with stiff arms. As for hand positions, the Bosco seems to have a variety, so I'm unsure which position you deem the only good. I like the "handshake" position most, if that isn't apparent, but the area by the stem connection would be good for combatting wind, would it not? And then the third would be underhanded as if doing a barbell curl for your biceps wrist up, slightly angled inwards, just beyond the handshake area. The same area could be done like a tilter thumbs down. In any case, there are a few alternately, none of which I would use except in extreme conditions. I'd use the handshake probably as much as someone with drops might mostly use the hoods.
I'm definitely not disabled, but my first long distance tour down the Pacific Coast Highway was on a tadpole trike, chosen for reasons of comfort. But the practicality of having such a rig while living in a condo wasn't practical, so I'm hoping to get the maximum amount of comfort from a bike. I know there are people who have found comfortable riding situations, and many of the people I saw on the coast who weren't speed demons wore normal clothing. And the older and more leisurely, the less "biker" they looked. I am young enough and fit enough to ride like the wind, but choose to go relaxed when traveling. As I've mentioned before, it's all about the journey. What's the rush?
In any case, I appreciate your comments, and they are food for thought. I'm definitely questioning my motivation for my choices and looking at the stigmas I may have formed regarding bent over riding with drop bars. At this time, I am contemplating buying a touring bike, with or without drops, and putting in as much distance as possible before starting to build my custom frame. The Surlys are on sale, and I could likely resell them, with limited use, once I am done with it. Perhaps I could even find someone who wants to own a Surly, and save them a few hundred bucks by "borrowing" it for a few months. Or even put out an ad to rent a bike that suits my dimensions.
09-04-15, 05:45 PM
#144
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In any case, all I meant was that on the Tadpole Trike, my gear inch wasn't low enough, so with the same struggle, I likely would have gotten out of the seat to save the knees.
09-04-15, 05:49 PM
#145
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I've read about this. Does location of the bags make a lot of difference? I've heard when they are around the axels, it's gives good vibe results, but I was likely going to do top of front rack and/or handlebar bag.
09-04-15, 05:55 PM
#146
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Do you have a frame that was ergo as far as power transmission is concerned? Measure the horn of the saddle over BB (fore or aft). Any bike you can dupe that on will be the same, pretty much, at same height over pedals. Some of the older bikes like Pashleys have laid back geo, and if you look at the seat set-up it was often way forward when ridden for performance.
There is a French fit calculator online that I find pretty helpful.
Longer chainstays, as long as you can get on the bike, will help some of your ride issues.
The war of words is fun, but as you say you can always fit other bars (and parts). If your test rides takes you out to Pick ering, we should go for a ride. I ate at the all you can eat last night, so it is pretty safe riding...
Pashley porn for the other punters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M9w9fC7tg
There is a French fit calculator online that I find pretty helpful.
Longer chainstays, as long as you can get on the bike, will help some of your ride issues.
The war of words is fun, but as you say you can always fit other bars (and parts). If your test rides takes you out to Pick ering, we should go for a ride. I ate at the all you can eat last night, so it is pretty safe riding...
Pashley porn for the other punters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M9w9fC7tg
No, I don't have frame that is ergo regarding power transmission as far as I know. I can check on the two bikes I have now. The Pashley and the Brompton. I do expect the chainstay will be longer if only for pannier clearance, and they ask tons of questions, such as priority of steering, drivetrain and comfort. If chain stay length increases comfort, ands I put comfort as a priority, I imagine I'll have a longer chainstay.
Would love to ride in Pickering sometime! I don't get out there much, but I have a friend who loves going out there to party!
09-04-15, 05:56 PM
#147
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I've done both. The bars are pretty symetrical, so I don't really think there's a difference in that respect. The difference for me was that I could not get my shifter and brake levers around the bends, so they were always at the open end of the bars. When they were on a bike with a decent amount of reach and a fairly upright position, I put the open side towards me and only used the far side when I wanted to stretch. When I put them on a bike without much reach, I flipped them the other way to give myself a little more reach.
09-04-15, 06:00 PM
#148
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Being that I ride drop bar and upright I feel I can speak from experience on both though maybe not technically. I have more time on drops this summer, averaging 90 to 150 miles per week doing 30 mile round trip commutes to work and generally ride the upright with the wife on weekends, maybe 30 miles. I have no issue with saddle pain on my Randonee/Bosco, AWOL or Vaya. After a long ride, I have mild to moderate wrist and neck pain when riding the AWOL or Vaya that I do not get when riding the Randonee/Bosco. I consider 40-60 miles to a be longish ride and may stop once during that time unless the other half is with me then we stop every 10 miles or so. I mostly ride on nubs halfway down the bar on the Bosco's and on the hoods of the Vaya and AWOL. For fast downhill rides I like the drops better, I can almost hit 50mph with drop bars on the downhill leg of my commute and am in the 30's with uprights, The AWOL is a beast at high downhill speeds and I really like taking downhill turns with it, the Vaya is not quite as nice and the upright is like a having a sail and doesn't feel as stable when riding the flats at high speeds as the others. For the return 3 uphill miles I prefer the upright as I feel I get more power with my hands farther back. Much of this can be due to gearing though, the AWOL has a 105 50/39/30 and 11/36 cassette that I rarely spin out and the Randonee has the 44/32/22 and 11/32 cassette that I frequently spin out. The Vaya has a 46/34 and 11/36 cassette. The Vaya was an impulse buy, I got a good deal on it and like the white/blue color, hence the overlap between it and the AWOL.
Maybe it's the brooks saddles on my bikes or that I have a calloused arse as knock on wood I don't chaffe or get perineum pain, I ride with smartwool underwear and gym shorts, I'm too self conscious and cheap to wear spandex. My arse is a bit sore on all bikes after 50 miles and by 90 it's really sore, I have done 90 on the AWOL and Randonee/Bosco but not the Vaya. In any case the first 15 or so minutes the day after are a bit uncomfortable but once I get into the groove I'm good for the rest of the day. Maybe it's old age or riding with cleats but the biggest problem I'm having lately is my toes going numb at around the 40 mile mark, usually what forces me to take a break, may be related to discectomy.
MassiveD my legs don't look like they were hit by a Mack truck but I've had two partial discectiomies which is what led me to seek out more upright/comfortable riding positions. For me the key to riding drop bars comfortably was getting my core strength up though I still don't like riding the lower drops for any length of time as my lower back stiffens up.
I used to spin riding up hill but living in Pittsburgh I have to get out of the saddle on quite a few portions of my uphill commute and am starting to prefer getting out of the saddle more than spinning. Don't know if it's strength or mental but I feel I do better out of the saddle, again that's a more recent discovery for me and am not sure I'm ready to try it fully loaded.
According to my wife over the past 2 years I gotten in better shape than I was in the military, if I choose I can join AARP, so I disagree with her, at least I hope I wasn't that whimpy when I was in the military. However, being in better shape is without a doubt the primary reason I can ride drop bars more comfortably. My lower back issue still makes riding in the drops uncomfortable so I only drop down when trying to maximize downhill speed. Having upright bars on the Randonnee greatly contributed to my success at getting physically stronger so putting it together was a great thing for me and knowing how much good it did me I would build one up again in a heart beat. As I got stronger I wanted to try to push myself harder so got the AWOL, another move I do not regret. My version of touring tends to be four day rides, Pgh to Cumberland and back over a long weekend camping along the way. I have family and prioritize longer vacations around them, at least until I get the last one in college. If I'm riding alone I'll take the AWOL and push hard loaded. If I drag the wife along I carry her gear and mine on the upright Randonee and we converse, reconnect and enjoy the scenery and each others company for a few days. I find that riding with my wife at her pace with drops is very difficult and I get sore wrists fast, she rides 10mph tops.
Wow, that was more long winded than I intended. Sorry, I was typing on and off while working and guess I started rambling.
Maybe it's the brooks saddles on my bikes or that I have a calloused arse as knock on wood I don't chaffe or get perineum pain, I ride with smartwool underwear and gym shorts, I'm too self conscious and cheap to wear spandex. My arse is a bit sore on all bikes after 50 miles and by 90 it's really sore, I have done 90 on the AWOL and Randonee/Bosco but not the Vaya. In any case the first 15 or so minutes the day after are a bit uncomfortable but once I get into the groove I'm good for the rest of the day. Maybe it's old age or riding with cleats but the biggest problem I'm having lately is my toes going numb at around the 40 mile mark, usually what forces me to take a break, may be related to discectomy.
MassiveD my legs don't look like they were hit by a Mack truck but I've had two partial discectiomies which is what led me to seek out more upright/comfortable riding positions. For me the key to riding drop bars comfortably was getting my core strength up though I still don't like riding the lower drops for any length of time as my lower back stiffens up.
I used to spin riding up hill but living in Pittsburgh I have to get out of the saddle on quite a few portions of my uphill commute and am starting to prefer getting out of the saddle more than spinning. Don't know if it's strength or mental but I feel I do better out of the saddle, again that's a more recent discovery for me and am not sure I'm ready to try it fully loaded.
According to my wife over the past 2 years I gotten in better shape than I was in the military, if I choose I can join AARP, so I disagree with her, at least I hope I wasn't that whimpy when I was in the military. However, being in better shape is without a doubt the primary reason I can ride drop bars more comfortably. My lower back issue still makes riding in the drops uncomfortable so I only drop down when trying to maximize downhill speed. Having upright bars on the Randonnee greatly contributed to my success at getting physically stronger so putting it together was a great thing for me and knowing how much good it did me I would build one up again in a heart beat. As I got stronger I wanted to try to push myself harder so got the AWOL, another move I do not regret. My version of touring tends to be four day rides, Pgh to Cumberland and back over a long weekend camping along the way. I have family and prioritize longer vacations around them, at least until I get the last one in college. If I'm riding alone I'll take the AWOL and push hard loaded. If I drag the wife along I carry her gear and mine on the upright Randonee and we converse, reconnect and enjoy the scenery and each others company for a few days. I find that riding with my wife at her pace with drops is very difficult and I get sore wrists fast, she rides 10mph tops.
Wow, that was more long winded than I intended. Sorry, I was typing on and off while working and guess I started rambling.
Please send instructions on developing a calloused ass. *wink* I definitely hope my Brooks and whatever geometry/bars I end up getting will result in no chaffing or pain. Looked into Smartwool boxer briefs... They seem AWESOME! Expensive though. Do you get good life out of them? Durable?
Last edited by rawklobster; 09-05-15 at 05:06 AM.
09-05-15, 05:34 AM
#149
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well, I might be buying a bike, as it's on sale for about $550US after tax. $750 all-in with a Brooks B66. It seems to be close to what I'm looking for, and I can test things out. I've already determined the Pashley won't be a good testing machine. The bike I'm looking at testing and possibly buying is a Raleigh Port Townsend which is set up pretty much like I want. The video on the Canadian website shows it's upright, with a bit of lean, which is what I'm going for, and just a little more upright than what Vik posted on the first page.
Considering what I plan on spending for the custom, this is a drop in the bucket, and money well spent if I can put it through its paces and figure out what works and what doesn't work. I'll give it a test ride at the shop and see how it feels. I'm thinking the 53cm for my height of 5'7". Seat tube angle is steep, but hopefully OK. 700c wheels as far as I can tell, which is larger than the 26" wheels I'm planning, but there's nothing saying I can't do 700c wheels on the custom if I like this setup. The Pashley is 700c and I like the height it provides. Toe overlap can be eliminated on the custom, but hopefully there won't be any on this setup. And I used to love the 'Brifters on my KHS Mountain bike! Might even forget about the Rohloff as I'm sure cassette riding is a lot smoother and nicer than I experienced with my mid-90s Mountain Bike, if the Surly is any indication. Barely felt the shifts. Wish me luck!!!
Considering what I plan on spending for the custom, this is a drop in the bucket, and money well spent if I can put it through its paces and figure out what works and what doesn't work. I'll give it a test ride at the shop and see how it feels. I'm thinking the 53cm for my height of 5'7". Seat tube angle is steep, but hopefully OK. 700c wheels as far as I can tell, which is larger than the 26" wheels I'm planning, but there's nothing saying I can't do 700c wheels on the custom if I like this setup. The Pashley is 700c and I like the height it provides. Toe overlap can be eliminated on the custom, but hopefully there won't be any on this setup. And I used to love the 'Brifters on my KHS Mountain bike! Might even forget about the Rohloff as I'm sure cassette riding is a lot smoother and nicer than I experienced with my mid-90s Mountain Bike, if the Surly is any indication. Barely felt the shifts. Wish me luck!!!
Last edited by rawklobster; 09-05-15 at 05:39 AM.
09-05-15, 02:49 PM
#150
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 290
Bikes: Brompton M6R Raw, Pashley Roadster Sovereign, ICE Trike with Rohloff (SOLD) - Pacific Coast Highway
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Went to my local bike shop to try the Raleigh Port Townsend. The 53cm, after a bit of adjusting the seat and handlebars gave me a slight bend with a little pressure on the hands, but when releasing hand pressure, I was able to hold my body in the position without too much effort. Really nice bike, except for super squeeky brakes, which could be fixed, but I decided to save myself the money and not buy it just for testing. That said, the guy who owns the shop and knows about touring said it would be suitable for distance riding. And apparently a woman who seems to have had the same interest as me, doing touring, but relaxed and comfortable at a pace her young daughter can manage. She's been very happy with it for those reasons.
While I was there, I also tested the Surly LHT, 52cm, which felt a lot more nimble, which I didn't like at first, but got used to quickly, was better than my first experience. It was MUCH better than the 54cm in terms of reach, and I noticed the stem look like it was shortened, and not as long. I was fine on the upper part of the drops, but in the hoods it wasn't too bad, but when taking the weight off my hands, I found it hard, but not impossible, to keep up, but not for a prolonged amount of time. Raising the bars more might help, but I couldn't see the hoods being back enough to enjoy, with the already stubbing stem.
If I had to guess the angle of my back, I'd peg it at 30-35 degrees, pretty much exactly like the guy in the photo in the post before this one. I tried taking a picture in a window, but it didn't come out very good. Both rides made me aprreciate how good the Brompton and Pashley fit me. I find them both very comfortable for booting around the city. Even when I test rode them I didn't notice any awkwardness. True too, for the Raleigh, except that it was light and in a low gear when I started, so it had a dreamy quality to it.
While I was there, I also tested the Surly LHT, 52cm, which felt a lot more nimble, which I didn't like at first, but got used to quickly, was better than my first experience. It was MUCH better than the 54cm in terms of reach, and I noticed the stem look like it was shortened, and not as long. I was fine on the upper part of the drops, but in the hoods it wasn't too bad, but when taking the weight off my hands, I found it hard, but not impossible, to keep up, but not for a prolonged amount of time. Raising the bars more might help, but I couldn't see the hoods being back enough to enjoy, with the already stubbing stem.
If I had to guess the angle of my back, I'd peg it at 30-35 degrees, pretty much exactly like the guy in the photo in the post before this one. I tried taking a picture in a window, but it didn't come out very good. Both rides made me aprreciate how good the Brompton and Pashley fit me. I find them both very comfortable for booting around the city. Even when I test rode them I didn't notice any awkwardness. True too, for the Raleigh, except that it was light and in a low gear when I started, so it had a dreamy quality to it.