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simple alcohol burner vs multifuel burner?

Old 09-16-15, 02:50 PM
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simple alcohol burner vs multifuel burner?

I travel light (like rear panniers and a bivy bag light), but I'm considering carrying a burner next time. I was thinking about getting a simple burner that takes alcohol fuel, with a stowaway pot. But I was also wondering about the multifuel burners, which are designed for the job, and does it much better, but are typically expensive, and weighs more.

advantages of soda can burner:
light
simple (you can make one from a soda can)
disposable

advantages of multifuel burner:
heats up water faster
gasoline and fuel are easier to find
easier to modulate flame
can be used in higher elevations or adverse conditions, which I don't really care about, because I won't be on a bicycle in those places, but more likely a motorcycle..

right now, I really like the simple soda can burner, just for the simplicity. however, there are two things I'm a little worried about.

1. fuel availability: I'm guessing you can't always find stores that have pure alcohol. and even when you do, the alcohol may be different, and there's no way to control how how the fuel burns, especially if it's not pure alcohol

2. getting the job done: about how long does it take a soda can burner to heat up say 1L of water? It doesn't need to be boiling, just hot enough to make oat meals, mashed potatoes, and the like.

thanks
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Old 09-16-15, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
1. fuel availability: I'm guessing you can't always find stores that have pure alcohol. and even when you do, the alcohol may be different, and there's no way to control how how the fuel burns, especially if it's not pure alcohol
This isn't the issue you may think it is. Almost all hardware stores and paint stores will have methyl hydrate aka wood alcohol, an excellent clean burning fuel. Up here a litre of the stuff is less than 5 bucks.
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Old 09-16-15, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
snip . . .

advantages of multifuel burner:
. . .
easier to modulate flame

snip . . .

thanks
trangia burner has a little regulator top that helps you modulate the flame.

I like alcohol burners and I like trangia stoves.
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Old 09-16-15, 03:35 PM
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https://www.google.com/search?q=alco...bikeforums.net

Canister stoves are best compromise between the (initially) low weight, low cost alcohol stove and the expeditionary multi-fuel stoves such as venerable MSR Whisperlite International. Not cooking at all is the simplest, lightest solution, which is completely practical in many parts of the world.

Alcohol stoves can be made from trash and run off ethanol or methanol, which is widely available. They boil 2 cups of h20 in 5-12 minutes and use 12-25g fuel per boil. Most alcohol stoves lack regulation to reduce heat/burn rate to a simmer. Trangia and some clones use a simple hinged burner cover to reduce output. Alcohol has some danger associated with the hard-to-see clear burning flames, plus it gets spilled filling or recovering fuel from stove. Some areas (CA in the past) prohibit alcohol stoves as they are viewed as potential forest fire starters.

Canister stoves are super convenient, boil 2 cups h20 in 2-3" with 9-12g fuel. Fuel found at walmart or sporting goods store. Cheap clone canister stoves are sold on Amazon (kovea, etc). Don't use cheap canister stoves if you fear explosions, burns or are uninsured. All canister stoves have full output regulation via valve, 0-100%.

Multifuel stoves work like canister stoves but they're heavier, less tippy, may have a priming/warm-up period and will blacken cookware. They work well for groups. Most work well at very high altitude with liquid fuel where canister stoves might struggle. There are clones of these too, be especially cautious of the gasoline-burning models.

Alcohol stoves are good for short trips. They use relatively high amount of fuel due to the lower heat produced by their fuel, as well as poorer design-related efficacy. At some point it becomes cheaper/lighter to carry the canister stove - usually for trips beyond 5 days.

Canister stoves require a fuel canister, which empty weighs 30-50% of total filled weight. It is this "dead" weight which mostly makes the alcohol stove advantageous weight-wise for short trips. Otherwise canister stoves are pretty darn good. The Jetboil variety with integrated stand, windscreen, pot & lid are the fastest and most fuel efficient, and also the most expensive.

Nearly all backpacking stoves and cookware are tippy by design. Buy the canister holder/footrest/stand if you get a canister stove to minimize chance of spilling food/water onto the ground.

If you are flying, be aware that the multifuel stoves often are banned since they may have a trace odor of fuel present - gasoline/white gas/kerosene. Can't fly fuel either. Canister fuel can be shipped by ground only in the USA due to "hazardous material" law with an associated fee, so most people get it local - local sellers often take advantage of this situation and raise their price. It is possible to refill canisters for a fraction of retail cost with a simple butane or propane adapter, making their use much more economical for heavy users.

Last edited by seeker333; 09-16-15 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 09-16-15, 03:38 PM
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Plus one for Trangia burners. Mine are over fifty years old.
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Old 09-16-15, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
1. fuel availability: I'm guessing you can't always find stores that have pure alcohol. and even when you do, the alcohol may be different, and there's no way to control how how the fuel burns, especially if it's not pure alcohol
I have never had any trouble finding Yellow Heet, but if you do denatured alcohol from a hardware store is another option. They both burn pretty consistently.

Originally Posted by spectastic
2. getting the job done: about how long does it take a soda can burner to heat up say 1L of water? It doesn't need to be boiling, just hot enough to make oat meals, mashed potatoes, and the like.
I haven't timed mine for a while so I forget, but it isn't all that long. It is definitely quick enough that it isn't a concern for me. I don't get why the concern for how long it takes as long as it is not super long. I mean do you really pay that much attention to how long it takes to boil? A few minutes one way or the other aren't that big of a deal to me while cooking. Winter snowshoe or XC ski camping where I need to melt snow for water it becomes a much bigger deal, but for bike touring not so much.

For backpacking when I need to carry fuel for longer periods between restock I use a canister stove because it has more BTUs per weight. For bike touring I find that I can go lighter with alcohol since I can restock pretty frequently. The ability to simmer better is a bonus.
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Old 09-16-15, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by seeker333
Alcohol stoves are good for short trips. They use relatively high amount of fuel due to the lower heat produced by their fuel, as well as poorer design-related efficacy. At some point it becomes cheaper/lighter to carry the canister stove - usually for trips beyond 5 days.
Agreed, about the 5 days worth of fuel thing, but that applies to time between restock points not trip length. For backpacking trips of over 5 days I am likely to take a canister stove. On my bike tours I have never needed to carry more than a few days worth of fuel regardless of trip length since alcohol is widely enough available that you can buy in almost any town usually even very small towns. The Yellow Heet 12 ounce bottles are a nice size and last long enough for bike tours IME.
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Old 09-16-15, 04:23 PM
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good tips. I might get the trangia burner. I was looking at that, but wasn't feeling like spending $15 on something I can make for a nickel

but the canister stove idea has me intrigued. you can't modulate it at all right? unless there's a valve on the canister that controls the output, which I don't think there is. how does refilling usually work? it'd be nice to do that, instead of buying a new can every single time you run out.

Last edited by spectastic; 09-16-15 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 09-16-15, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
good tips. I might get the trangia burner. I was looking at that, but wasn't feeling like spending $15 on something I can make for a nickel

but the canister stove idea has me intrigued. you can't modulate it at all right? unless there's a valve on the canister that controls the output, which I don't think there is. how does refilling usually work? it'd be nice to do that, instead of buying a new can every single time you run out.
Canister stoves can be regulated and when one canister runs out you just throw it away and use another, no refueling is possible. You can only buy the canisters at camping stores and stores like Walmart that have camping sections. I find the Trangia type of alcohol stove to work well if all you want to do is boil water and heat up soups and stews. The fuel is readily available at any hardware store, just look for denatured alcohol (ethanol) or at gas stations you can find Yellow HEET which is basically methanol.
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Old 09-16-15, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
you can't modulate it at all right?
No, most canister stoves simmer nicely.
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Old 09-16-15, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
good tips. I might get the trangia burner. I was looking at that, but wasn't feeling like spending $15 on something I can make for a nickel

but the canister stove idea has me intrigued. you can't modulate it at all right? unless there's a valve on the canister that controls the output, which I don't think there is. how does refilling usually work? it'd be nice to do that, instead of buying a new can every single time you run out.
Yes, canisters are regulated. All of them have a needle valve for controlling the flame. Some stoves like the Primius Omnifuel can use canisters or white gas (aka naphtha) or unleaded gasoline with a jet change. Those have control valves as well. There are lots of canister stoves that have piezoelectric igniters on them so that you don't need a match...the Omnifuel I have doesn't.

The control valve is fine enough that you can boil water in nothing flat or you can simmer rice. In other words, you can cook on one...elaborately if you like.

If you are going to altitude, canister stoves can work very well but they can be difficult to light. Soto makes the Micro Regulator that works very well in the cold and at altitude. I used one on my trip around Lake Erie this spring and had to start it at some absolutely frigid temperatures (22°F a couple of times) and had no problems.

Originally Posted by nun
You can only buy the canisters at camping stores and stores like Walmart that have camping sections.
Getting the canisters isn't that much of a problem if you are touring anywhere in the US (haven't done much loaded touring outside the US). I had no problem finding fuel canisters anywhere on my trip around Lake Erie nor on my trip through southern Appalachia nor even in Mena, OK. I've even found them in Helmarts in Kansas. I was so confident of finding fuel canisters that I just took my Soto on my trip this summer and left the heavy Omnifuel at home.
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Old 09-16-15, 05:47 PM
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I took a soda can stove and also a Firebox 3" woodburning stove touring. 2 months and less than 1 litre of alcohol (when I couldn't find wood, or it was too wet, to use the wood burning stove). Camp Stoves
Also it made a great pot stand for my alcohol stove when not burning wood.

I love the simplicity of the woodburning stove but probably not a good idea right now because of all the forest fires and no-burn regulations.

If doing something different doesn't appeal to you, then just go with canister - they are pretty efficient.
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Old 09-16-15, 06:51 PM
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mmm I'm thinking sterno folding stove (double up as wood burning if available), with soda can burner (with alcohol), and a stowaway pot. yeeessssssssss

canister sounds nice, but I'll stick to simplicity.
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Old 09-17-15, 07:05 AM
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I've taken soda can stoves and burned Heet. But they take forever to boil water if at all. Next time I've decided to take my MSR internationale stove simply for its efficiency. I also plan on cooking more of my meals so I need a good stove for that and the soda can would not cut it.
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Old 09-17-15, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by robert schlatte
I've taken soda can stoves and burned Heet. But they take forever to boil water if at all. Next time I've decided to take my MSR internationale stove simply for its efficiency. I also plan on cooking more of my meals so I need a good stove for that and the soda can would not cut it.
Lots of people find that soda can stoves work well for boiling water, their big drawback for other types of cooking is that most of them can't be regulated. It's important to couple the flame to the pot efficiently and use a wind screen. I use an Evernew TI alcohol stove and it produces a nice gentle heat when the pot is placed directly on the stove covering the upper ring of holes. The flame does not extend outside the base of my mug.
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Old 09-17-15, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
mmm I'm thinking sterno folding stove (double up as wood burning if available), with soda can burner (with alcohol), and a stowaway pot. yeeessssssssss

canister sounds nice, but I'll stick to simplicity.
Get a wood gas burning stove. It'll work better with the alcohol burner and when you are burning wood it's like a gas burner on steroids. It can make a steel pot glow red (if empty) or an aluminum pot melt (if empty)
Don't use pots while empy...!
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Old 09-17-15, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by robert schlatte
I've taken soda can stoves and burned Heet. But they take forever to boil water if at all.
I find that interesting since my simple modified cat stove burning Heet or Denatured alcohol can bring 2-3 cups of water to a roiling boil in about 4 minutes.
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Old 09-17-15, 09:42 AM
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Depends on whether or not you're actually trying to cook food. If all you're doing is heating, can't beat a Jetboil. If you want to cook, we love our Optimus Nova for that. Aluminum pots only, though. We backpack on the Pacific Crest Trail. Thru-hikers almost all use a Jetboil. I've never seen alcohol. They're all about light and fast. Quick rice and bean flakes is about it for their cooking, but they carry everything with them for days. Bike camping, we go to a grocery store and buy easy to cook up food, but most of that is designed to be cooked in a kitchen which has a stove and pots and pans. We carry almost no food with us, so that's very different from a thru-hiker. Thru-hikers go for 10+ hours/day. When we tour, we don't ride that many hours, so we have time to shop and cook. We tour our tandem with only rear panniers.

We haven't had any trouble flying with a multi-fuel stove. We put it and our fuel bottles through the dishwasher on the start end, and do similar on the return end.

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Old 09-17-15, 09:47 AM
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I bought 50p of petrol as I went , MSR dragonfly simmers , or roaring boil-snow melts.

Whisperlight international is only adjustable by fuel tank pressure..

bike tours are on the highway so fuel is easy to find, unleaded pump gas.
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Old 09-17-15, 10:03 AM
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For the price the Trangia is an excellent buy and there is no issue finding fuel (yellow heat)... I have one kit with the supplied cooking pot and combined one with a vintage mess kit that came with a base / wind guard. Everything (save for a small fuel bottle) I need can be packed in here including a fair amount of food (packaged soups and cliff bars).

Takes about 4 minutes to boil 3 cups of water...



For bigger groups, car camping, or when I want a little more cooking capacity I have a SVEA 123 and SIGG kit... it is a beautiful thing.

You can't buy the SIGG kit anymore but they are available on the grey market.



As it is self priming it gets a little black at the cup and this boils a pot of water in about 4 - 5 minutes... you can also stack the pots to make a double boiler.

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Old 09-17-15, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Depends on whether or not you're actually trying to cook food. If all you're doing is heating, can't beat a Jetboil. If you want to cook, we love our Optimus Nova for that. Aluminum pots only, though. We backpack on the Pacific Crest Trail. Thru-hikers almost all use a Jetboil. I've never seen alcohol. They're all about light and fast. Quick rice and bean flakes is about it for their cooking, but they carry everything with them for days. Bike camping, we go to a grocery store and buy easy to cook up food, but most of that is designed to be cooked in a kitchen which has a stove and pots and pans. We carry almost no food with us, so that's very different from a thru-hiker. Thru-hikers go for 10+ hours/day. When we tour, we don't ride that many hours, so we have time to shop and cook. We tour our tandem with only rear panniers.
Don't forget, alcohol stoves (or any form of stove without a shut-off valve) are not allowed on many parts of the PCT. With the fire danger in California this year, the National Park system is getting very particular. That might account for the lack of alcohol stoves you see among thru-hikers.
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Old 09-17-15, 10:36 AM
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Lived months straight on thru hikes in the woods using tiny denatured alcohol stove, you will not find easier/lighter solution but note best for single person (and smaller amounts of boiling water). I could go approx 3 weeks 2x daily boils before needing refill. Whisper light is best stove for fastest boil/high elevation/multi people and are pretty light and can regulate--my go to stove these days. the WL can burn multi fuel, including gasoline if necessary.
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Old 09-17-15, 10:42 AM
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i love stove talk
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Old 09-17-15, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by max5480
i love stove talk
Stoves, knives, fishing gear... and bikes.

It is all good.
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Old 09-17-15, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by fuzz2050
Don't forget, alcohol stoves (or any form of stove without a shut-off valve) are not allowed on many parts of the PCT. With the fire danger in California this year, the National Park system is getting very particular. That might account for the lack of alcohol stoves you see among thru-hikers.
Yes, and another good reason not to use them. Low fuel efficiency and temperature might be another.

As mentioned in post 20 the Sigg kit is very nice. We use the kit I bought in 1968 at Sporthaus Schuster, Munchen, though we've given up the Svea in favor of the Optimus Nova. Can't get parts for the Svea anymore.
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