Doug64

We have 4 setups on the touring bikes with 700c wheels in our family; all of them are durable and proven:
Velocity Dyad rims, Ultegra hubs (130 mm reardropouts), Wheelsmith DB spokes;
Velocity Dyad rims, 105 hubs (130mm rear dropouts), Wheelsmith DB spokes;
Velocity Dyad rims, XT hubs (135 mm rear dropouts), Wheelsmith DB spokes; and
Mavic 319 rims, LX hubs (135mm rear dropouts), Wheelsmith straight gauge spokes.

The Wheels with the Ultegra hubs have a little over 15,000 miles on them, and have never needed truing. About 2/3 of those miles were loaded touring on a lot of cobbles, gravel, and rough roads.

I was in the Co-Motion shop the other day and was looking at the bikes on display. Their premier touring bike was, the Americano, and some of their tandems have Velocity Dyad rims. That is a pretty good endorsement.

MassiveD

I had a look at those, can't really tell much about them. What makes you think they are better than Son? Are they the new darling of some group like commuters. I couldn't figure out the pricing, but there is certainly a place for a better than Shimano option. Velo Orange had some heavy things to say about a hub they were bringing out, but I don't know if it cut it in the end.

The Son 28 is no longer the top of the line, from what I could tell from their site. So in an ultimate contest there is another level in performance at Son.

The thing about ultimate touring hubs/wheels is that the ultimate level is way above what most of us need, but it exists. If you want it, the way some folks want a carbon road bike, though they never race, you can find it. For fairly serious tourists the best gear is maybe more meaningful than the carbon road bike, but it is still overkill for most. Beckman designs ultimate bikes, and he said he designed them for conditions he encountered while riding 4000 miles or K a month (that is what I recollect, not sure what he said, but huge mileages, month after month). There are people out there on a more or less permanent basis. At that level just claims about quality aren't good enough, track record still counts. I don't know much about dynos, but with electric motors there are many build issues, just relating to the armature that determine durability. The rundown tests, for instance don't speak to whether the hubs will really last, or whether spokes will pull through.

Yeah, I had the same kind of recommendation for Dyads, a number of the big names recommend those, that is why I use them. My feeling is Mavic is coasting on the reputation of rims they no longer make. Probably their rims are as good as anyone else's, but that is the point. Any serious company that makes trekking or downhill rims probably has some good products. I ask my local shops that deal with couriers for advice, those guys thrash rims and feedback from them is normally pretty meaningful, probably even compared to the Peter White's of the world. That is where I got onto Alex, and they proved bombproof, in my use.

Tourist in MSN

This was one of the websites I looked at before I bought my SP PV-8. The graphs on performance told me that it was as good as the other top names for electrical performance.

https://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/fe...ub-dynamos.pdf

I bought the PV-8 in spring 2013, been very happy with it. As noted in the link above, drag should be imperceptible and I find that to be accurate. After I bought it I read somewhere that it had an Aluminum axle which concerned me, but after learning that several people use the PV-8 for long distance mountain bike racing, I stopped worrying about my axle strength.

I can't tell if my light is on or off based on drag. Hub has been trouble free. I use rim brakes, can't comment on anything about discs.

If you use XT hub in the rear, I would look for an older steel axle hub. I have an M760 on one bike and an M752 or M756 (not sure which) on the rear on another bike, those are steel axle, have been very happy with them.

Hugh Morris

I don't know how widely they're used or how well received they are, which is why I ask. I'm not great at staying hip to trends anyway. Shoot, I'm only now learning who Peter White is, who seems a much better candidate for the phrase "darling of some group".

I was reading of Lael Wilcox's antics; she used one round the world with no problems, then chose to get another one for her ITT bike that crushed the Divide. That indicates that it's overkill for me, in a wider range of conditions than I'm likely to encounter. dreamy.

In further researching that hub and the SON hubs, I came across a very thorough website exploring dynamo hubs and lighting: SP PD-8x Review. There's a ton of stuff on that site to sift through, very data oriented, and I choose to believe he is unbiased.

cyccommute 

The flames will start shortly but...

Hub: Doesn't matter

Rim: Doesn't matter

Spokes: They aren't an afterthought and they matter...a lot!

Let's get the first two items out of the way. If money is no object, go with a pair of Phil Woods. The amount of time you don't spend cleaning and repacking and futzing with them is just about worth the serious coin you'll spend on them. Second choice (if money is a bit of an object but not too much), White Industries. Not as easy to fix in the field but they are super nice hubs. Third choice: Velo Orange has some really nice hubs for pretty cheap. Final choice (personally): anything with a cup and cone like Shimano. There's nothing wrong with Shimano hubs but I just find fiddling with cups and cones on a yearly or biyearly basis to be something that I'd rather not do.

For rims, it really, honestly, absolutely doesn't matter. There is no real difference between a Velocity Dyad, Velocity A23 or a Mavic A719. Of those 3, I'd probably go with the A23 and save a bit of weight. The rim is just along for the ride. It's a convenient place to hang a tire and so thing for the spokes to attach to. Because of the dynamics of the wheel, a super heavy rim is just super heavy. It really isn't "stronger". It may resist deflection a tiny bit but not enough to make much of a difference. The rim is going to squish as it hits the bottom of the rotation and the spoke is going to unload. More weight really isn't going to change that much.

I would suggest getting an off-center (OC) rim for the rear. The OC rim allows for a better spoke angle on the driveside and results in a stronger, more symmetrically loaded wheel. The Velocity A23 OC is both a good example and a good choice. None of the other "touring" choices from Velocity offer off-center. Saving 100 grams per wheel is just a bonus.

Finally, there's the spokes. They do the heavy lifting. They take all the abuse of riding and cornering and potholes. Most people are going to go with just any old spoke. That's the wrong way to approach a truly strong wheel. Start with the spokes. For touring (or heavy riders or heavy touring riders), a triple butted spoke with a 2.3/1.8/2.0mm profile is best. The thicker head makes for a spoke that has about 40% resistance to breakage...i.e. stronger... than a straight gauge spoke. The 2.3mm head fits more snugly in the hub and allows for less movement as the spoke is unloaded and loaded during the rotational cycle as well.

DT Alpine III are very good spokes but expect to pay $2 per spoke if you can find them by the each. More often you'll have to buy an entire box of 72 for a 36 spoke wheel which makes them closer to $4 per spoke unless you are making two of the same wheel. Sapim makes the Strong and Force spokes which are cheaper. The Strong has a thick head and straight body (2.3/2.0mm) while the Force is a triple butted spoke. Wheelsmith makes the DH13 which is the same as the Sapim Strong. My current favorite spoke is the Pillar PSR TB2018. You can get them from Bdop cycling for about $0.90 each which is on par with the cost of a single butted spoke. They don't come with nipples which adds a couple of pennies per spoke but they are excellent spokes. I'd use brass nipples just because they are easier to build with. If you want colored nipples, Pillar makes colored brass ones that you can find on Fleabay.

All of my wheels...and I mean all...from mountain bike to road bike to touring bike to commute are built this way. I build with pretty good hubs (Phils, Whites, a Paul), damned good spokes and light weight rims. I don't baby my wheels either. My current touring wheels (Phil FSC hub/Alpine III spokes/Dyad rims) have about 10,000 trouble free touring miles on them and my commuter bike with a very similar wheel set has about 15,000 miles on them. I simply don't worry about wheels anymore.

sagacitoma

Thanks for that, I really appreciate the response. Cheers!

Tourist in MSN

I will have to fuel up my blow torch, ... ...

MassiveD

Basically, none of them mater on the same basis. There are hundreds of hubs out there but if you choose from the top several, they will be fine. Rims mater a lot, but if you choose from the top few brands, no problems. Same thing with spokes, implement any of the top brands and they will be OK. The spokes aren't a special case in this regard. Though failures in the rims are still the most common place for problems, but rims are disposable, hubs and spokes are pretty infinitely reusable, if you buy good ones.

I like what VO does, and even moreso what his Kayak company CLC did. But third for VO's here today, gone tomorrow products, over DT, Campy, Paul, King, etc... That is whacky. Now if the thread was what cheapo crap that fits between high end and Shimano could I use, then one can round up Surly or VO, or Origin 8 (do they make hubs?), etc...


I think that is wrong headed, the rims are only no biggie because out of thousands of options, at the expensive end you have creamed out the top 2 or three. What has changed is rims are now made stronger than they used to be so they can take more load and deflection. The wheel depends more from it's strength on the rim, than the spoke. Something like an MA2 wheel needed to be tensioned way the heck up, and the rim needed double eyelets. This is arguably a better wheel, but people wanted aero, and they also wanted rims that were cross usable on MTBs. New wheels do not require as high spoke tension. So in a sense it is the opposite of what you say because the rim is a bigger not smaller part of the wheel. But then since they are all way overbuilt, there are any number of interchangeable rims out there, so in that sense, at least at the upper end they are interchangeable.

Plus one, I stay away with anything with the word Rhino in it.


For one thing, unless I was going to build a 20 spoke touring wheel why would I care. Spokes in properly built wheels don't break. The main cause of spoke at the head breakage is poor fit and lack of stress relief. Straight spokes have some advantages, and they don't break, so who cares. Wheelsmith makes straight spokes, not just so they can handle the multiple returns.

Despite the claims of superior fit from DT Alpine, DT is the only company I know that pushes spoke washers to deal with the bad fit issue. Meanwhile, everyone knows that if you shoot Wheelsmith (and generally DT regular spokes) at any premium or shimano hub, fit is not a problem. There are also build things that can be done to improve fit in properly fitted spokes.

I respect your technical expertise which is far greater than mine, despite the odd spokemagedon thread. What is there to recommend these spokes? How do we know they will go 500K miles? Not that there is any hope I will go that far.

MassiveD

Peter White is an interesting case, he is sorta the last of the independents. These days wheel building technique is so well understood, anyone can make a wheel that will last and last, or at least among people who have half a clue about mechanical tasks. It would be hard to make a living as a wheel builder to the masses today. His main function for me is as a control, if he offers a lifetime guarantee on a product, and has for 10 years, it is probably OK. This helps because the boards are faddish.

Recently he has added some cool products like Son hubs, and TT frames and bikes. In the case of the Son hubs, the lifetime guarantee applies, I think. Who using Shimano, VO, or the asian generator hubs is guaranteeing wheel builds for life? That would be an unfair standard as certainly some of that stuff is for casual users.

MassiveD

That was interesting, sounds good. My two concerns are the axle for normal touring forks, and the cost, which at 200 US is close enough to 250-282, that the Son looks attractive to me. One can pick Shimanos up for 40-60 bucks nos on the bay, that is a significant price point difference. My other hubs are Rohloff and White, the polished Son with a 68 MM flange spacing looks like a better idea for someone in my weight range.

I don't actually have any generator hub, my experience touring is the exact opposite of what I expected. I enjoy riding at night, and I thought I would on tour, but for one thing, by the time the nights comes around I have alrady had a lot of time in the saddle. And the other bit is that even in the rural areas I tour, it is so dark that I don't find it practical to ride with a lamp. As you know there is a whole category of MTB lamps that cost a fortune and light up the country side with serious light volume. I would need something like that. Then there is navigation, even with GPS, one needs to be able to see things at a hundred yards or so, to spot marks and see the contours of the land. And then one has to camp, hard to spot the best stealth sites in the dark.

And I don't carry much in the way of electronics.

So far I can tour generator free, but that may change, with all the gear that needs a charge that is increasingly available.

DropBarFan

I've been thinking about a dyno hub lately but details can become complex. German regulations, less lumens than many rechargeable lights, necessity of rebuilding wheel, do non-SON's have same quality electric regulation etc? Dyno people say the best German dyno-compatible lights have better aim & are bright enough. I believe them but the fancy German systems total over $500 eh? For tourers w/only occasional need for night riding battery lights are much cheaper.

LeeG

Without knowing your load, road and budget I'd say any general use rim and hub with 36spokes then check it after a few hundred miles of heavy riding.

MassiveD

They are nice, I had one on a recumbent, the kind that stays lit when you stop at a stop sign. Ran off a rim generator though, which is practical, but not "a good experience" as the Apple people say. I did a tour back around 05 where the only light I carried was a CatEye, it ran off two AAs, and they were not replaced prior to the tour, and I used it for the bike, all camping and night trips to the washroom, reading etc... And it lasted my 2.5 weeks and went on to other tasks. All I know is LEDs are fantastic. I have a light I hold in my hand, and I can sorta direct traffic with it, let people know I am there before they t-bone or pass me. I would take that over a lot of 500 dollar systems.

Tourist in MSN

In post 28 above I gave a good link on electrical performance on several hubs.

I think it best to build up a new wheel when buying a dynohub, ideally that is your first and not second wheel for that bike to reduce costs. I worked in a bike shop before I went to college, I build my own wheels. If you buy a wheel, well then the price goes up. I think my hub, wheel, light and rim was around $350 and that was with a rather expensive rim, I could have done it for maybe $300 with a more common rim. I used a SP PV-8 hub, could have cut costs further by buying a Shimano.

I am quite happy with the AXA Luxx 70 Plus headlamp, even with a 20 Euro shipping charge from Germany it was quite affordable compared to some others. But some prefer the light patterns from the B&M lights better, so if you consider this light, do more internet research instead of just buying on my recommendation.



You will also find that some of the really other good lights are a lot more affordable if you order them from Europe instead of buying from a USA supplier.

cyccommute 

Which rims is used doesn't matter at all. I doubt that you'll find more longevity out of a 700g rim than a 450g rim, mostly because the 700g rim doesn't have thicker walls but is usually just wider. In my experience, rims aren't much of a problem at all and seldom fail except due to impacts or being bent in bike racks (Never put the front wheel in a bike rack!)

Spokes, on the other hand, can be a very common place for failure and it only takes a couple of spokes breaking to absolutely ruin a wheel.


The Velo Orange hubs can be taken apart without tools which is why I suggest them over other choices. Paul hubs aren't a very good choice because they're more track oriented. Kings aren't a good choice because they only go up to a 32 hole drilling as do Campy and DT.


Lots of people say that "rims are stronger than they used to be" but I don't see how. Rims of today aren't significantly thicker than rims made 5 to 20 years ago. The alloys are a bit better but strength of the alloy differs by only small amounts from one alloy to another...a few percentage points at best. Quality control is tighter but again, that's only going to be a small gain in strength over old rims.

As for wheels needing less tension than previously, I haven't seen a whole lot of information anywhere on how much tension a rim "needs" for new or old rims. Tension on the wheel is a guessing game at best and there really isn't any hard data on what is really "needed".

I just don't see how a rim can add much in the way of strength to a wheel based on how the wheel is constructed. The rim floats on the spokes and even the strongest rim is going to deflect as the wheel is loaded and unloaded during rotation. This loads and unloads the spokes which are the part that will eventually fatigue and fail. Rims are disposable and replaceable. If they are the strongest part of the wheel, then why doesn't their failure (which isn't all that common) result in the failure of the whole wheel? Break a spoke and the wheel is suspect. Break a few spokes an the wheel has failed and much be rebuilt with new spokes. That indicates to me that the critical part of the system is the spoke...not the rim.


People say "spokes in properly built wheels don't break" all the time. But even a cursory reading of the Bike Forums especially in the Mechanics, Clydesdale and Touring indicate that spoke breakage is a constant problem. You hardly ever read about someone breaking a rim but spoke breakage is a constant theme.

The "fit" of the spokes that I'm talking about is a function of how the wheel has to be built. Spoke threads are rolled onto a spoke rather then being cut into the spoke. This increases the diameter of the spoke from 2.0mm (most commonly used diameter) to 2.3mm. The hub has to be drilled for the threads to fit through the hub. If the spoke has a 2.0mm diameter at the head, there is 0.4 to 0.5mm of space between the spoke and the hub. It's a very sloppy fit. Spokes should have had 2.3mm heads all along just to have a better fit in the hub but we have made due with the sloppy fit and spokes that can move about in the hub as the spoke is tensioned and detensioned during the loading and unloading of the rim. People used to tie spokes just so that they wouldn't move or, as you pointed out, use washers to make the spoke fit better. Why not just use the proper sized spoke for the hole that is there? It's not like a triple butted spoke adds enough weight to be concerned about.

The Pillar spokes are cheap and strong. I've used them for a number of wheels now and not experienced any problems with their quality. If nothing else, the fact that they give you the strength characteristics of the spokes on their website makes them worth looking into. I know of no other spoke manufacturer that gives that kind of detail on spoke strength. It's kind of fun to look at the differences between straight, double butt, triple butt and their quad butted spokes to see what adding just a little material to the head of the spoke does for strength.

And, at $0.90 per spoke from Bdop Cycling, they are certainly competitive with other spokes. DT Champions cost around that much so why not gain some strength and piece of mind?

mstateglfr 

I have never used VO hubs. Havent seen them on a bike even.
At $240 for both hubs, I would expect them to be significantly better than Origin8 and many of Shimano's offerings. I also wouldn't ever call $240 for hubs 'cheapo crap'. But its all relative, I guess.

LeeG

I finally built up a VO Grand Cru touring hub on one of the 26" VO Escapade rims. The cassette sounds quieter than a Shimano. Most expensive hub I've ever bought. If the "best" I could ever get was a Shimano LX hub my gut sense is a rock, wet road or old age would take me and the wheel out before the hub would fail.
The front wheel I put snow tires on is some basic Shimano Exage hub packed with grease, 36 spokes and RhinoLite rim. If my XT/Wheelsmith/Mavic 719 front wheel evaporated tomorrow that cheap front wheel would be the best.

tarwheel 

I don't believe there is a "best" for anything, or rarely so, and particularly not for bicycle components. Every choice involves compromises and depends greatly on how much you are willing to pay. That said, I have had excellent performance and durability with Velocity Dyad rims (36H) and Shimano hubs (Ultegra and LX) for my touring wheels. I prefer double-butted spokes, either Wheelsmith or DT Swiss Competition, with brass nipples (not alloy). Dyad-Shimano wheels can purchased for very reasonable prices ($200-350) and provide years of trouble-free service. There might be better wheels if you are willing to spend a lot more money, but I doubt if they would be more durable or trouble-free. They might be lighter weight, however.

MassiveD

I see SP hubs are being sold online for around 100. At that price there is a huge opening between them and the Son. Doesn't make them any more reliable, but certainly they are solidly on my radar now.

MassiveD

There are lots of reports of rim failures from what I can see. Failure though rarely means collapse as a spoke failure might mean, but as far as cracks and sidewall blowouts, you will see many reports. These failures are sometimes in newish gear, but rims are consumables also, so they can fail as a normal course of their use also. Hubs and spokes are eternal.

Recently I detected a tendency to knock Velocity and put Mavic up on a pedestal, this apparently due to a few reports of Velocity rim failure. I'm not troubled, but it goes to show these things happen. The same thing happened to Mavic when it was top, relative to Velocity.

I do agree buying fatter heavier is not a good idea, but that isn't really the end of it, there are many different manufacturers out there while you are creaming a few proven brands, and I wouldn't get too excited about which from among those, but I only accept a few from the whole universe. Seems to me your short list of rims, spokes, and hubs are all about as long.

"Spokes, on the other hand, can be a very common place for failure and it only takes a couple of spokes breaking to absolutely ruin a wheel."

Sure, but they don't break if the wheel is properly built even for very heavy riders like myself. If they broke, then the maker either selected the wrong components or built the wheel wrong. Jobst also says there is a small chance of a bad spoke, they do occur and need to be culled, while many people see a breakage as condemning the whole wheel and they change the whole wheel, thereby exposing themselves to new variables, and a new winnowing process. There is just no way one is having multiple spoke failures on a well built wheel. While I am all for 40 spoke wheels there are experimental wheels that were heavily toured at 20 spokes, and they did not fail. A proper 36 spoke wheel should never fail in the spokes, other than as mentioned.


I don't really see the point of toolless disassembly, smacks of crap made easy to fix. The bearings are supposed to be good for 50K miles. Last time I looked at Phil instructions it said one needed a press, but I hear lots of people say they are roadside, so I am confused. If I wanted easy service I would go Shimano or DT.

Last I looked you could get any drilling you want in DT, that may have changed, don't know. 40s and 48s. I am not recommending King or Campy, but some big names like them and I would have thought on average they had better track records than VO. How many VO hubs have been sold, or seriously campaigned?


I don't say (or shouldn't) that rims are stronger, though I guess they are, they are orders of magnitude stiffer. The deeper sections are a change at the third power, and strength at the second.

Well as you know, it was rarer back in the day to use a spoke tension meter. A lot of guys thought they knew what was happening. Jobst said you needed to build tension until the rim deformed, them back off. I wrote him a few years back (he always said there was nothing new, and he didn't need to revise his book) and asked how I was supposed to do that with the rims of today, and their deep sections, That would put huge stress on the eyelets and probably if they tacoed, it might even be dangerous. He sorta sighed in prose and said, just dial in the numbers the factory suggests. Those numbers are not that high for velocity. Jobst MA2 world was based on the highest manageable spoke tension, that is not the current world, which is maybe why high end rims do not have double eyelets these days. If the rims were twice as deep as they currently are, and made of steel, spoke tension would be of little importance to their durability. That is what did happen to a lessor degree.

Jobst's spokes lasted 500k, while he went through a stack of rims, spokes are eternal, we just don't bother, cut them out and replace them or the wheels when the rims go, but that is not necessary.

I think you are arguing my case, I am saying rims break, you are saying they don't mater.

Obviously gross spoke failure is going to drop the whole bike. But it should never happen. The spoke is a keystone component. But spokes are also steel, if they are stress relieved, there aren't any normal course loads that should break them. I guess the word is that spoke failure can be "catastrophic", but that is different from the part itself being weak.

If a few spokes break, they should be replaced and one should carry on. The wheel is fine if it was well built, at least the bad spokes have been culled. If the wheel was not properly built and eventually all the spokes are going to fail, that is a different mater. But too many people have your view that a bad spoke or two in a well built wheel is a calamity for the wheel.


I would say if those spokes are breaking, other than the odd weak link, it is because the wheels were not well built, or possibly they were being abused. There is a normal range of use that has to be accepted. It is well broad enough for most touring uses, but it can be exceeded. Particularly by gonzo, test to destruction types. For instance, I was just looking at Hern's site, and he specifies load limits for his tires. "Think of all the can I take a road bike touring threads". I did that back in the day, and people just scoff if you bring up weight limits, but it would be hard not to exceed them on a road bike touring, though even then the spoke probably isn't the first thing to go.

I don't have anything against triple butted spokes, though I thought the fit advantages were mostly relative to proprietary DT hubs. But the reality is that if you drop Wheelsmith spokes into, say, Phil hubs, that is all she wrote, with the proper stress relieving that is the end of the story. Or presumably Shimano hubs. So I don't really see the upside when even you are buying cheaper product and saying you no longer have any wheel concerns. As far as that is concerned I share your view, I don't expect my wheels to give me trouble. I just know that if I had LX hubs, straight gage spokes, and a decent rim, I would be OK also.

MassiveD

Wouldn't they have straight spokes if machine made at those prices? I'm not questioning your choice, a lot of people buy these good deal machine made wheels, but for the most part they are straight 14s. Butted spokes could eat up 150 on wheels at this price point, seems unlikely.

MassiveD

Like you, I have never used them, or seen them. That alone disqualifies them for me. The top touring hubs are mainly a mater of pedigree. I also prefer the company to be focused on touring. CK is a great guy but he is at least as focused on image as touring I never really know what he is up to, and at 240, that is more than some Phil, even a pair of Phil, I don't care to find out.

As a Canadian I still take a certain perverse interest in buying american. One of the things about Chinese products is that by the time they get the quality up, and the competition on the floor, their prices are almost where the US, or Canadian prices are/were.

tarwheel 

For $200, yes, the wheels would have straight gauge spokes. However, I had a set built with Dyad rims, 36H Ultegra hubs and DB spokes for about $350. A bought another set with straight spokes and LX hubs for about $200 and it has been just as dependable although heavier.

mstateglfr 

You called em cheapo crap, but then post that you have never used them or even seen them.

What are you basing your comment on then?

MassiveD

It's an opinion, who said I was "basing" it on anything. I have on a number of occasions gone to the site, and thought something was great, but then it didn't have the main feature I was looking for. I just don't trust it. One example is the MA2 clone they originally brought out that had single eyelets. Or the touring frame they brought out with originally a quill stem. Arguably a better system but with them, that isn't what it is about. I'm willing to take on board your opinion that it is overpriced crap, if you prefer. I feel better now.