View Poll Results: Did You Framesaver Your Steel Frame?
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Poll: How many people treat a steel frame with Framesaver or equiv.?
#1
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Poll: How many people treat a steel frame with Framesaver or equiv.?
All,
In a moment of weakness aided by Surly's ongoing sale on this year's now apparently outdated fleet, I am now the owner of a Surly Pugsley. The original, hideous, hacked-together expedition fatbike. Fun!
I got this bike for two places: The beach and the snow. Both of which, in New England, mean a lot of salt and corrosion. I am considering a framesaver treatment for my frame, but I have a couple of questions:
1. How difficult/long is the Framesaver process? What if I do a halfway job, like a quick hit in the BB shell and the head/seat tubes plus wherever I can get the spray nozzle in? I don't really want to tape everything off and roll oil around inside the frame to evenly coat everything. I don't see the need to Mona Lisa the project, but you could convince me otherwise.
2. Do I need to let it dry unbuilt, or can I hit the bike with the FS and then finish building?
3. Is framesaver a paranoia? Will my frame develop a nice inner patina and cease rusting? Is surly's ED Treatment enough? Will I lose the bike in five years to rust-aided cracks if I don't treat it and use it in the slush? I have no interest in riding it through the ocean tide, and my maintenance on all components is regular and responsible.
In a moment of weakness aided by Surly's ongoing sale on this year's now apparently outdated fleet, I am now the owner of a Surly Pugsley. The original, hideous, hacked-together expedition fatbike. Fun!
I got this bike for two places: The beach and the snow. Both of which, in New England, mean a lot of salt and corrosion. I am considering a framesaver treatment for my frame, but I have a couple of questions:
1. How difficult/long is the Framesaver process? What if I do a halfway job, like a quick hit in the BB shell and the head/seat tubes plus wherever I can get the spray nozzle in? I don't really want to tape everything off and roll oil around inside the frame to evenly coat everything. I don't see the need to Mona Lisa the project, but you could convince me otherwise.
2. Do I need to let it dry unbuilt, or can I hit the bike with the FS and then finish building?
3. Is framesaver a paranoia? Will my frame develop a nice inner patina and cease rusting? Is surly's ED Treatment enough? Will I lose the bike in five years to rust-aided cracks if I don't treat it and use it in the slush? I have no interest in riding it through the ocean tide, and my maintenance on all components is regular and responsible.
#2
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I don't know but I'm curious to hear more about it. I sometimes open up a bike and think yikes! Especially when I actually pour water out of the frame.
#3
Senior Member
I have no idea whether it works or is worth it, but the thought of my steel frame rusting from the inside was not something I wanted. I paid to have the shop I ordered my Troll from apply Framesaver, and am sure the guy did a thorough job. I don't think doing a half-assed job is worth the effort.
#4
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Some tests with pictures of different treatments
The oily rag versus experiment Finished Jan 2011
The Garage Journal Board - View Single Post - fluid film ya or ney?
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...reatments.html
See last page of this forum post for winner.
The oily rag versus experiment Finished Jan 2011
The Garage Journal Board - View Single Post - fluid film ya or ney?
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...reatments.html
See last page of this forum post for winner.
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Framesaver is not expensive and the process takes only a few minutes. Good instructions come with the can. A little tape and some paper towels, spray and flip, it's easy. If you do it, you won't have to wonder if you should have.
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My builder did it for me. Last steel bike did not fare well in my costal rolling grounds. I also got stainless dropouts and braze ones where my last bike rusted out.
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A can is like what $12? If you haven't built the frame up yet it takes maybe 5 minutes to plug the holes with paper towels, spray the stuff in and rotate it a few times? Let it sit overnight or so and you're good to go. I'm not 100% sure it's needed, but, if it helps, that's a pretty low cost, low effort attempt to fix something I'd be kicking myself for not doing 5 years down the road.
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However, I've ridden one of my steel framed bikes for 40 years and there is not external or internal rust.
I do treat our touring and around-town steel bikes. as noted above, it is easy to do and for $15 there is a certain peace of mind. If you do it, do the complete job. Of course, for you UL folks it may add 0.5 oz.
#9
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I have never bothered. I have a bike that is 40 years old and has no rust inside or out that I have seen. Not knocking it for those who choose to, I just never bothered and have not seen any reason to regret it.
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I've never done it either, and none of my many steel bikes have suffered from significant rust problems, from the one I had as a kid fifty years ago to the modern versions I'm still buying today. To be fair, my custom steel road frame had framesaver applied by the builder, but none of the others have.
This isn't just good fortune on my part. I volunteered for a couple of years at a bike charity that recycled donated bikes, rebuilding and reselling thise that could be saved and scrapping the rest. We saw plenty of badly neglected bikes, but we almost never got one that had failed from rust. And given that this is the UK - not famed for the aridity of its climate - that's quite an interesting data point.
I wouldn't discourage you from doing it. But whether you do it or not I'd bet on the frame outlasting you.
This isn't just good fortune on my part. I volunteered for a couple of years at a bike charity that recycled donated bikes, rebuilding and reselling thise that could be saved and scrapping the rest. We saw plenty of badly neglected bikes, but we almost never got one that had failed from rust. And given that this is the UK - not famed for the aridity of its climate - that's quite an interesting data point.
I wouldn't discourage you from doing it. But whether you do it or not I'd bet on the frame outlasting you.
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I have done it on some bikes, not on others.
If a bike might be exposed to salt, I think it is a pretty good idea. My winter bike is not a beater, it is my Rohloff expedition bike. I frame savered it before I built it up. I have a pair of SPD shoes I wear in winter, other shoes in summer. The cleats on my winter shoes are a block of rust, and the other shoes have almost no rust on the cleats. Also the cleat springs on pedals that I use in winter are badly rusted. That is a pretty good sign of what road salt will do.
I bought an old Bridgestone a few years ago at a garage sale, it had been stored outside for over a decade, I am judging the storage period based on the diameter of the tree that was growing up through the frame. (Owner had to get out a sawsall to cut down the tree so I could buy the bike.) Took about a day to get the bad bottom bracket out of it, but once I did I found a lot of rust powder in it. In the chainstays there were some bits of rust coming out, but overall I felt that the frame was probably still sound enough to use as an errand bike. I have been using that bike now for years without a problem. Since I store that one outside I stripped it down and frame savered it. But in this case I would have had to strip all parts off anyway, every bearing needed grease, most plastic and rubber parts needed replacement, etc.
I have another bike that was badly abused and was often stored wet before I bought it. Much of the chrome platting on the exterior tubing was flaking off due to rust under the chrome. But the interior of the frame tubes where I could see inside looks great, that bike is a early 1960s Columbus tubing racing frame, the Columbus tubing appears to be naturally rust resistant.
But I have seen other frames that were carefully cared for and rusted out in a decade and a half. I think it is a roll of the dice if you got a frame that is prone to rust or not.
You need to move the frame around a lot to get everything coated, so if you do it you likely will want to remove everything off the bike first.
I never really know if I got enough frame saver inside each tube because the seat tube and head tube are the only tubes you can see inside to judge how well you got it covered. Also did fork steerer tube interior and I can see in there.
If you get framesaver somewhere you did not want it and find it later, like exterior paint, I have used coleman stove fuel to clean off the frame saver.
I like to let it sit for a couple days before I put stuff back together. It stinks, so I do that outside for the first day. Bottom bracket, I like to clean off the threads with stove fuel and then use grease on my bottom bracket instead. I don't want the frame saver to harden and act like glue holding things like that in the frame later.
I just frame savered a new frame a week ago, not because I expect that bike to get that wet, more because I just got it and figured why not? But if you have the bike assembled, then it is a tougher call.
Here is a new idea. When I received my Thorn Nomad frame a couple years ago (this is my Rohloff Expedition bike), I was really surprised to see inside the head tube that someone had put a piece of tape over the openings into the down tube and top tube. I had to remove the tape to get frame saver in there. At first I thought that was odd, but the more I thought about it, I thought it was pretty neat. It looked just like regular tape, like masking tape. Water can get into the the headtube by flowing down the outside of the steerer tube past the upper headset bearing. Then that water can go into (1) the top tube, (2) down tube or (3) out the bottom headset bearing and out of the frame. With that tape, that forced any such water to only go down out the bottom bearing and not into other frame tubes. I am not disassembling my other bikes to install that tape, but when I open up a head tube in other bikes for other reasons, I am adding the tape.
More info here:
The Velo ORANGE Blog: Frame Saving and Rust
If a bike might be exposed to salt, I think it is a pretty good idea. My winter bike is not a beater, it is my Rohloff expedition bike. I frame savered it before I built it up. I have a pair of SPD shoes I wear in winter, other shoes in summer. The cleats on my winter shoes are a block of rust, and the other shoes have almost no rust on the cleats. Also the cleat springs on pedals that I use in winter are badly rusted. That is a pretty good sign of what road salt will do.
I bought an old Bridgestone a few years ago at a garage sale, it had been stored outside for over a decade, I am judging the storage period based on the diameter of the tree that was growing up through the frame. (Owner had to get out a sawsall to cut down the tree so I could buy the bike.) Took about a day to get the bad bottom bracket out of it, but once I did I found a lot of rust powder in it. In the chainstays there were some bits of rust coming out, but overall I felt that the frame was probably still sound enough to use as an errand bike. I have been using that bike now for years without a problem. Since I store that one outside I stripped it down and frame savered it. But in this case I would have had to strip all parts off anyway, every bearing needed grease, most plastic and rubber parts needed replacement, etc.
I have another bike that was badly abused and was often stored wet before I bought it. Much of the chrome platting on the exterior tubing was flaking off due to rust under the chrome. But the interior of the frame tubes where I could see inside looks great, that bike is a early 1960s Columbus tubing racing frame, the Columbus tubing appears to be naturally rust resistant.
But I have seen other frames that were carefully cared for and rusted out in a decade and a half. I think it is a roll of the dice if you got a frame that is prone to rust or not.
All,
In a moment of weakness aided by Surly's ongoing sale on this year's now apparently outdated fleet, I am now the owner of a Surly Pugsley. The original, hideous, hacked-together expedition fatbike. Fun!
I got this bike for two places: The beach and the snow. Both of which, in New England, mean a lot of salt and corrosion. I am considering a framesaver treatment for my frame, but I have a couple of questions:
1. How difficult/long is the Framesaver process? What if I do a halfway job, like a quick hit in the BB shell and the head/seat tubes plus wherever I can get the spray nozzle in? I don't really want to tape everything off and roll oil around inside the frame to evenly coat everything. I don't see the need to Mona Lisa the project, but you could convince me otherwise.
2. Do I need to let it dry unbuilt, or can I hit the bike with the FS and then finish building?
3. Is framesaver a paranoia? Will my frame develop a nice inner patina and cease rusting? Is surly's ED Treatment enough? Will I lose the bike in five years to rust-aided cracks if I don't treat it and use it in the slush? I have no interest in riding it through the ocean tide, and my maintenance on all components is regular and responsible.
In a moment of weakness aided by Surly's ongoing sale on this year's now apparently outdated fleet, I am now the owner of a Surly Pugsley. The original, hideous, hacked-together expedition fatbike. Fun!
I got this bike for two places: The beach and the snow. Both of which, in New England, mean a lot of salt and corrosion. I am considering a framesaver treatment for my frame, but I have a couple of questions:
1. How difficult/long is the Framesaver process? What if I do a halfway job, like a quick hit in the BB shell and the head/seat tubes plus wherever I can get the spray nozzle in? I don't really want to tape everything off and roll oil around inside the frame to evenly coat everything. I don't see the need to Mona Lisa the project, but you could convince me otherwise.
2. Do I need to let it dry unbuilt, or can I hit the bike with the FS and then finish building?
3. Is framesaver a paranoia? Will my frame develop a nice inner patina and cease rusting? Is surly's ED Treatment enough? Will I lose the bike in five years to rust-aided cracks if I don't treat it and use it in the slush? I have no interest in riding it through the ocean tide, and my maintenance on all components is regular and responsible.
I never really know if I got enough frame saver inside each tube because the seat tube and head tube are the only tubes you can see inside to judge how well you got it covered. Also did fork steerer tube interior and I can see in there.
If you get framesaver somewhere you did not want it and find it later, like exterior paint, I have used coleman stove fuel to clean off the frame saver.
I like to let it sit for a couple days before I put stuff back together. It stinks, so I do that outside for the first day. Bottom bracket, I like to clean off the threads with stove fuel and then use grease on my bottom bracket instead. I don't want the frame saver to harden and act like glue holding things like that in the frame later.
I just frame savered a new frame a week ago, not because I expect that bike to get that wet, more because I just got it and figured why not? But if you have the bike assembled, then it is a tougher call.
Here is a new idea. When I received my Thorn Nomad frame a couple years ago (this is my Rohloff Expedition bike), I was really surprised to see inside the head tube that someone had put a piece of tape over the openings into the down tube and top tube. I had to remove the tape to get frame saver in there. At first I thought that was odd, but the more I thought about it, I thought it was pretty neat. It looked just like regular tape, like masking tape. Water can get into the the headtube by flowing down the outside of the steerer tube past the upper headset bearing. Then that water can go into (1) the top tube, (2) down tube or (3) out the bottom headset bearing and out of the frame. With that tape, that forced any such water to only go down out the bottom bearing and not into other frame tubes. I am not disassembling my other bikes to install that tape, but when I open up a head tube in other bikes for other reasons, I am adding the tape.
More info here:
The Velo ORANGE Blog: Frame Saving and Rust
#12
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I have done it on some bikes, not on others.
If a bike might be exposed to salt, I think it is a pretty good idea. My winter bike is not a beater, it is my Rohloff expedition bike. I frame savered it before I built it up. I have a pair of SPD shoes I wear in winter, other shoes in summer. The cleats on my winter shoes are a block of rust, and the other shoes have almost no rust on the cleats. Also the cleat springs on pedals that I use in winter are badly rusted. That is a pretty good sign of what road salt will do.
I bought an old Bridgestone a few years ago at a garage sale, it had been stored outside for over a decade, I am judging the storage period based on the diameter of the tree that was growing up through the frame. (Owner had to get out a sawsall to cut down the tree so I could buy the bike.) Took about a day to get the bad bottom bracket out of it, but once I did I found a lot of rust powder in it. In the chainstays there were some bits of rust coming out, but overall I felt that the frame was probably still sound enough to use as an errand bike. I have been using that bike now for years without a problem. Since I store that one outside I stripped it down and frame savered it. But in this case I would have had to strip all parts off anyway, every bearing needed grease, most plastic and rubber parts needed replacement, etc.
I have another bike that was badly abused and was often stored wet before I bought it. Much of the chrome platting on the exterior tubing was flaking off due to rust under the chrome. But the interior of the frame tubes where I could see inside looks great, that bike is a early 1960s Columbus tubing racing frame, the Columbus tubing appears to be naturally rust resistant.
But I have seen other frames that were carefully cared for and rusted out in a decade and a half. I think it is a roll of the dice if you got a frame that is prone to rust or not.
You need to move the frame around a lot to get everything coated, so if you do it you likely will want to remove everything off the bike first.
I never really know if I got enough frame saver inside each tube because the seat tube and head tube are the only tubes you can see inside to judge how well you got it covered. Also did fork steerer tube interior and I can see in there.
If you get framesaver somewhere you did not want it and find it later, like exterior paint, I have used coleman stove fuel to clean off the frame saver.
I like to let it sit for a couple days before I put stuff back together. It stinks, so I do that outside for the first day. Bottom bracket, I like to clean off the threads with stove fuel and then use grease on my bottom bracket instead. I don't want the frame saver to harden and act like glue holding things like that in the frame later.
I just frame savered a new frame a week ago, not because I expect that bike to get that wet, more because I just got it and figured why not? But if you have the bike assembled, then it is a tougher call.
Here is a new idea. When I received my Thorn Nomad frame a couple years ago (this is my Rohloff Expedition bike), I was really surprised to see inside the head tube that someone had put a piece of tape over the openings into the down tube and top tube. I had to remove the tape to get frame saver in there. At first I thought that was odd, but the more I thought about it, I thought it was pretty neat. It looked just like regular tape, like masking tape. Water can get into the the headtube by flowing down the outside of the steerer tube past the upper headset bearing. Then that water can go into (1) the top tube, (2) down tube or (3) out the bottom headset bearing and out of the frame. With that tape, that forced any such water to only go down out the bottom bearing and not into other frame tubes. I am not disassembling my other bikes to install that tape, but when I open up a head tube in other bikes for other reasons, I am adding the tape.
More info here:
The Velo ORANGE Blog: Frame Saving and Rust
If a bike might be exposed to salt, I think it is a pretty good idea. My winter bike is not a beater, it is my Rohloff expedition bike. I frame savered it before I built it up. I have a pair of SPD shoes I wear in winter, other shoes in summer. The cleats on my winter shoes are a block of rust, and the other shoes have almost no rust on the cleats. Also the cleat springs on pedals that I use in winter are badly rusted. That is a pretty good sign of what road salt will do.
I bought an old Bridgestone a few years ago at a garage sale, it had been stored outside for over a decade, I am judging the storage period based on the diameter of the tree that was growing up through the frame. (Owner had to get out a sawsall to cut down the tree so I could buy the bike.) Took about a day to get the bad bottom bracket out of it, but once I did I found a lot of rust powder in it. In the chainstays there were some bits of rust coming out, but overall I felt that the frame was probably still sound enough to use as an errand bike. I have been using that bike now for years without a problem. Since I store that one outside I stripped it down and frame savered it. But in this case I would have had to strip all parts off anyway, every bearing needed grease, most plastic and rubber parts needed replacement, etc.
I have another bike that was badly abused and was often stored wet before I bought it. Much of the chrome platting on the exterior tubing was flaking off due to rust under the chrome. But the interior of the frame tubes where I could see inside looks great, that bike is a early 1960s Columbus tubing racing frame, the Columbus tubing appears to be naturally rust resistant.
But I have seen other frames that were carefully cared for and rusted out in a decade and a half. I think it is a roll of the dice if you got a frame that is prone to rust or not.
You need to move the frame around a lot to get everything coated, so if you do it you likely will want to remove everything off the bike first.
I never really know if I got enough frame saver inside each tube because the seat tube and head tube are the only tubes you can see inside to judge how well you got it covered. Also did fork steerer tube interior and I can see in there.
If you get framesaver somewhere you did not want it and find it later, like exterior paint, I have used coleman stove fuel to clean off the frame saver.
I like to let it sit for a couple days before I put stuff back together. It stinks, so I do that outside for the first day. Bottom bracket, I like to clean off the threads with stove fuel and then use grease on my bottom bracket instead. I don't want the frame saver to harden and act like glue holding things like that in the frame later.
I just frame savered a new frame a week ago, not because I expect that bike to get that wet, more because I just got it and figured why not? But if you have the bike assembled, then it is a tougher call.
Here is a new idea. When I received my Thorn Nomad frame a couple years ago (this is my Rohloff Expedition bike), I was really surprised to see inside the head tube that someone had put a piece of tape over the openings into the down tube and top tube. I had to remove the tape to get frame saver in there. At first I thought that was odd, but the more I thought about it, I thought it was pretty neat. It looked just like regular tape, like masking tape. Water can get into the the headtube by flowing down the outside of the steerer tube past the upper headset bearing. Then that water can go into (1) the top tube, (2) down tube or (3) out the bottom headset bearing and out of the frame. With that tape, that forced any such water to only go down out the bottom bearing and not into other frame tubes. I am not disassembling my other bikes to install that tape, but when I open up a head tube in other bikes for other reasons, I am adding the tape.
More info here:
The Velo ORANGE Blog: Frame Saving and Rust
#13
Senior Member
I generally treat my frames with LPS 3. At one time it was the best stuff around for this, but now I use it because it's easily available in your local hardware store and works well enough. I think this is fine for general purpose touring bikes, but if I knew I was going to be riding in or near salt water, I might do a bit more research.
#14
Senior Member
If you do, just remember to soak any cleanup rags in water and dispose of. Danger of spontaneous combustion and all that. Hate to see you save your frame, just to burn down your house.
#16
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I generally treat my frames with LPS 3. At one time it was the best stuff around for this, but now I use it because it's easily available in your local hardware store and works well enough. I think this is fine for general purpose touring bikes, but if I knew I was going to be riding in or near salt water, I might do a bit more research.
Edit: and a thought. Suppose you REALLY like this Pugsly? Is it OK that perhaps this bike you love dies in 10 years?
Ben
Last edited by 79pmooney; 12-13-15 at 12:22 PM.
#17
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I figure I will have the bike for 5 years MAX. The rolling wheel of bike upgrades, component standards, etc. means this might not be a permanent resident (but, maybe it will!). I'm more worried about corrosion weakening a joint, so that I pop the bike off a little jump or something and land with a CRACK. I don't want the frame to be any less safe than usual for any amount of time.
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I'm with the camp that my primary bike pre-dates all the modern frame savers by at least a decade or two. I do have rust on the outside, and I suppose also a layer of rust on the inside, but most of it is superficial, I think.
Here, we have no road salt, and it is not a marine environment, although we do get some winter moisture.
I probably won't start using the frame savers or internal treatments, although I might consider it if I was in a more salty environment.
I would consider something like WD-40 as great for a short-term treatment, but I would have to doubt its effectiveness for long-term treatment of years or decades.
My new "rain bike" is Titanium.
Here, we have no road salt, and it is not a marine environment, although we do get some winter moisture.
I probably won't start using the frame savers or internal treatments, although I might consider it if I was in a more salty environment.
I would consider something like WD-40 as great for a short-term treatment, but I would have to doubt its effectiveness for long-term treatment of years or decades.
My new "rain bike" is Titanium.
#19
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I'm with the camp that my primary bike pre-dates all the modern frame savers by at least a decade or two. I do have rust on the outside, and I suppose also a layer of rust on the inside, but most of it is superficial, I think.
Here, we have no road salt, and it is not a marine environment, although we do get some winter moisture.
I probably won't start using the frame savers or internal treatments, although I might consider it if I was in a more salty environment.
I would consider something like WD-40 as great for a short-term treatment, but I would have to doubt its effectiveness for long-term treatment of years or decades.
My new "rain bike" is Titanium.
Here, we have no road salt, and it is not a marine environment, although we do get some winter moisture.
I probably won't start using the frame savers or internal treatments, although I might consider it if I was in a more salty environment.
I would consider something like WD-40 as great for a short-term treatment, but I would have to doubt its effectiveness for long-term treatment of years or decades.
My new "rain bike" is Titanium.
The only thing stopping me is wondering if Surly's ED coating does enough of a good job to not warrant framesaver. Surly says "use frame saver" but I suspect that's a legal thing, since any rust on a missed spot or something would make them liable for a "truth in advertising" claim.
#20
Banned
Only thing is the Tear down to get the 360 rotation to get the coating evenly spread ...
I have a Pinarello CX frame I bought in the 90s. Shop I got it through did the framesaver job when it came In.
I didn't do anything to the Others . so yes/no..
The issue is Condensation inside the tubes . If you leave the Bike in a Cold garage Its less of an issue than
taking in in to a warm humidified house , then back out, into the cold.
I have a Pinarello CX frame I bought in the 90s. Shop I got it through did the framesaver job when it came In.
I didn't do anything to the Others . so yes/no..
The issue is Condensation inside the tubes . If you leave the Bike in a Cold garage Its less of an issue than
taking in in to a warm humidified house , then back out, into the cold.
Last edited by fietsbob; 12-14-15 at 02:35 PM.
#21
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The planned itinerary for my bike is ocean beaches, rain, snow, slush, road salt, and mud. I think I'd better do something.
The only thing stopping me is wondering if Surly's ED coating does enough of a good job to not warrant framesaver. Surly says "use frame saver" but I suspect that's a legal thing, since any rust on a missed spot or something would make them liable for a "truth in advertising" claim.
The only thing stopping me is wondering if Surly's ED coating does enough of a good job to not warrant framesaver. Surly says "use frame saver" but I suspect that's a legal thing, since any rust on a missed spot or something would make them liable for a "truth in advertising" claim.
The issue is that the insides of the frame is likely untreated.
#22
Banned
Externalizing a cost is a way to sell for less .. Or make More without raising the cost .. Econ 101.
Factory is not in the same country as the frame saver is, or the QBP Warehouse
Factory is not in the same country as the frame saver is, or the QBP Warehouse
#23
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And the cost of factory treatment would be a fraction of what people pay retail. And, as people have mentioned, it is easier to do when all the tubes are accessible.
Perhaps it is a bit like undercoating. It isn't needed in the wet northwest, or dry southwest, but may help in marine environments, or where road salt is used.
Surly is trying to carve out a niche of decent mid-level bikes. Telling a person to strip the bike to paint the inside sounds odd.
In the OP's environment & use, I might consider some treatment.
#25
Banned
Dealer could do It if you asked. before you Picked it Up Mine (PinCX) came via 5th and High Street shop in Eugene with out asking ,
because it made sense, and I was Just Buying frame and fork . get hired onto QBP Director's Board and you can make it as You wish.
There is Toxic Waste dumped into Rivers because it saves Lots of Money over proper disposal and clean up is somebody else's problem.
because it made sense, and I was Just Buying frame and fork . get hired onto QBP Director's Board and you can make it as You wish.
There is Toxic Waste dumped into Rivers because it saves Lots of Money over proper disposal and clean up is somebody else's problem.