mstateglfr 

MassiveD, i cant keep up. Ill just reapond to afew of thebhundreds of comments you made when responding to my post.

A brooks saddle is nice, but $60 is more than doable for a nice touring saddle. That isnt going cheap.

I have no idea why we suddenly conveted to Canadan currency. Look around- the default is USD on these boardss and when that doesnt apply, posters specify what currency they are using.

LX hubs are incredibly reliable and huns of that quality and lower are used all the time. Its a very good mid level hub and is really actually on the higher wnd if you consider % above and below LX of use. Way more use Lx and lower than above LX. $300 sealed bearing hubs arent exactly common in cycling and touring from what inhave seen and read.

A sugino xd600 is $90. Thats in USD.

I dont understand your point to my comments about bars. $50 gets you some Nitto rando bars delivered to your door. $75 gets you some salsa cow3. Thats everything included. And again, USD.


I appreciate you saying i only see the lowest cost items as ill have to show that to my wife, she will laugh to the point of crying.
But its an inaccurate accusation. Nothing i have listed here in this thread is the lowest cost item. Most are above the median in terms of cost, actually.

Happy Feet

Thanks for the link. It's a good read and nice to see a manufacturer being honest about real vs perceived value.

I think there is some truth to that.


Not to keep addressing the individual, as I don't really want to get into a p_ssing match but I seldom spend much time trying to imagine or create a perfect touring bike. First, because it's impossible unless I do the same tour over and over again, and second because I don't confuse the equipment with the activity. I'm not a gearaholic and mainly see the bike as a vehicle to achieve a goal. I view the camping gear I use, cameras, and panniers etc... in much the same way. The goal is the tour, not owning "the bike" for it.

With that in mind, I would be far more likely to focus on how to achieve the perfect tour, rather than the perfect bike and I do this all the time. I ride regularly to keep fit (ish), do short tours to test ideas and equipment, practice photography skills so I can record my tour in the best way possible, shoot video to explore better angles and editing ideas, work on bikes as a hobby so I can increase my field repair ability, upgrade gear when I can to a level equal to the task... etc etc.

Winter months do not need to be "off" seasons in any way and I prefer to think of them as preparation time wherein I am trying to keep it, and refine it, in a real sense.

Doug64

As my wife put it one day when I commented about a scratch on her touring bike, "it is only a tool". However, I'm the mechanic in our duo, and I tend to cringe just a little.

The closest I can come to defining the "perfect" bike for me is one that fits well, is dependable, and I actually enjoy riding on tours regularly.

mdilthey

An aside: it's impressive that MassiveD managed to post EIGHT consecutive times on the previous page. Wow!

MassiveD

Wow some kind of multiplier effect, since I just made responses to your posts. For instance here I am responding to your post that just discusses the number of responses.

I'm not really interested in the incremental dollars issue. I simply stated what it would cost me to go up from that based on prices I had actually paid, or seen at reputable and not overpriced places. The Brooks is not an unusual item, and when I bought my Urbanite (same factory, LHTs were out of stock at the time or I would have bought one back then), I paid for the Brooks upgrade.

So now you are complaining that I should have specified what currency I was talking about relative to a point where I specified what currency I was talking about. Next time I want to buy a bike you will be the first guy I ask. The point however was to point out as I did that my choices in internet sellers are limited to those places that ship efficiently to Canada, so I can't always take the cheapest price. May not be US experience, but it is real world experience. And I guess someone buys from those places other than me.

Here again you are falling into the off topic trap. I have used LX, I would not use them again, the last ones I got had bad seals. But I acknowledge they are generally regarded as good, even by me. The OP's point is that LHT is a baseline from which one can pretty much only go up. Seems to me to be consistent with anything I may have said on hubs. There are better hubs, I use them, you don't. Sounds like the world both the OP I described.

Also I think you overstate when you say LHT is incredibly reliable. At one level that covers both the views of the most and least impressed customers, so you can't go too wrong. But if you are suggesting the quality is the very best, so good it boggles the mind, I am not there.

As I mentioned I bought mine from spicer or Riv, where did you buy yours again? And the price was a composite as best as I can remember of what I paid for both the WHite and Suginos, when I said 500 for the three parts. And you can get into way more trouble, try the white outfitted for a belt drive.

I think again you are missing the point that I am not saying you can't find cheaper bars, I am merely saying what I spent on three items (bars hubs cranks) the last time I bought this stuff. A bunch of oddball bars, they were NOS Dirt Drops, and an all custom splitable bar for Rohloff shifter. Average price as I said. Of course you can spend more, or you can spend less.


I am glad to be of what service I can. But you are wrong, the median is way above any of your prices. Tell your wife. The purchase distribution is understandably low, but the median of non-crazy higher end purchases is going to give you a nosebleed. It is easy to spend thousands on a suit, and it is totally justifiable on quality, but does the average suit cost half way to 5K , obviously not, but it is a cheap and nasty piece of junk that the average person wears. The average person doesn't even wear a suit. And isn't that the point. There is a spectrum of cost. The LHT is so far to the left on that spectrum you have a window seat, admittedly over the wing. But as long as you get your peanuts it feels like first class, which is a brilliant value.

MassiveD

The key point isn't nebulous "quality", it is tensile strength (TS). High TS steel dents less easily than low TS steel. all else equal. This means that the high TS steel is more dent resistant for a given diameter, and wall thickness, than lower TS steel of the same specs. Whether it is higher or lower on dent resistance than another product when you introduce different specs will depend on the actual specs. There is some higher TS tube with a thinner than median wall thickness that is as dent resistant as a lower TS steel of median wall thickness, at least conceptually.

It is both or either. TS makes for more dent resistance. TS also means that a tube that is near the point of yielding may be strong enough not to yield where a similar but lower TS tube would yield. All steels of the same dimensions are pretty much as stiff (key factor in bike frame structure). So whether the limitation that higher TS is called upon overcome is the global strength of the tube, or dent resistance will depend on the specific part and how it is loaded.

It isn't the case, as outlined above. But you are close.

MassiveD

None of those parts are really hand built that is a whole other level. I didn't say anyone has to buy better parts, just that they can. LHT is what you buy when you celebrate xmas at McDonalds, actuall cycle touring is pretty much the same, so you can see the fit right away. There are tons of every day tourists here on the forum who insist on Brooks. I never pay any more for brass rivits and all the other options, it is pure function. In fact Brooks is one of those compromises they definetly don't function as well in some areas like weatherproofness, but the butt comfort for some is all important. That is an ultimate function product in my mind. It works so well you will put up with the crap. Nitto and the Rohloff bars were maybe function. I am really broad, I don't know why I should use bars designed for some guy who gets sand kicked in his face all the time. I feel bad about that, but the fit just isn't there. The Rohloff bars are part of the part of crap you put up with to get Rohloff to work as well as a Walmart bike on integration.

Hubs have bling in the box, but out on the road they get dirty fast and it hardly maters. Having toured at 275 weight, and all that, being big. Having had some failures in teh LHT. I figured why not upgrade. More spokes, better quality control, easier to fix on the road. I doubt anyone would turn them down if they could get them at the same price as the LX. That is really the LHT story. They gave the nebulous features of a custom touring bike at a lunch bucket price. It isn't that people don't believe there is higher quality they just won't pay for it. But give it for free and they are all over it. Kind a lying attitude.

As I said the Can dollars means I have constraints on shipping, though everyone can to some extent. If you need 20 parts it will not probably pay to get them all in different places. So you bundle shipments and don't get the lowest price. Try and buy Sugino cranks for 90 on Riv, but I saved on shipping. I didn't just buy this stuff yesterday, I think the dollar was pretty much par. The Rohloff I remember was when the US dollar had fallen vs Germany, but the old hubs were still in stores, so 09ish.



I would probably go for Phil another time. I had temp insanity and was trying to put together an all WHite and Paul touring bike.



Only because you say so, they are both foods, and both protein sources, both things athletes have eaten to gain muscle mass or whatever.

I am an expert on hammers. TI hammers are great for framers who mostly use a naigun. Same overall size, and features as a regular framing hammer, but weight a lot less. The Ti hammers were sold as being as good as the steel hammers, as far as sinking power, but they aren't. People were into Ti everything at the time, and all sorts of magic was attributed to it. But for a guy who maybe just drives a few nails that are proud the Ti hammer is lighter and does the same job as a steel on. Steel is real though and will sink in a single strike what a ti 14 ouncer won't.



White is a common choice with Rohloff for some folks. I don't see a downside. I don't really believe in bling on touring bikes half the time you can't see the stuff for the bags. I have a suspicion that I should can the square drives, but that is where I am at, and Sugino, and White are good choices.

Bling is a word I don't like because I don't show off my bike, or really ride where it will be seen, or seen by people who would know what it was. If they did know, they would think I was psycho to spend over 100 on a bike. I believe is getting the best, and this is an acquired taste, when I realized I was serially buying the same lower cost stuff. Nothing wrong with that, but the motivation to show off, or spend money for the fun of it is basically the same for someone who buys a different LX level bike every year, or someone who buys the best components, I think in fact the real spendthrifts are the folks who buy the bikes, it is not hard to buy one or two new bikes a year, look at the bike list on some people's sigs. It is hard to spend 1-2 k on "bling" a year. I mean you could do it. I have never met anyone who did it. I have met a lot of people with 10 or more bikes.



You make my point. I have a Terry, it was 80 dollar with Ti raisl from MEC. I can ride it comfortably day after day if I don't go over 40 miles. AS you say, the Giles is the best but you don't fit it. I don't care about all that other stuff, I am comfortable on a Brooks, that is what maters. Also I am hugely set up for leather work. So anything that needs doing is easy for me.



Yeah I get that, but Shimano does not make touring equipment, well nobody does almost. I support people who do. If we were having this same conversation over racing bikes, I imagine it might be different, but in the touring sphere, there is good US gear. I don't even know if Shimano makes components for people over 73 inches in height. It isn't my dream supplier.

At the end of the day I asked basically two question. When did the OP loose the right to an opinion, kinda a serious question because I don't know if he has committed some huge crime in another thread (nor do I care), but maybe there are reasons he is getting this flack.

The other point is LHT is the lowest of the low, within a reasonable margin of error. You can probably easily pay 6K for a really nice touring bike. And then there is LHT smushed up in the cheap seats with maybe Windsor cheaper to any significant degree. Don't know, don't shop there. I never said it was a bad bike. I think the QC is unlikely to guarantee there are no Monday morning LHTs, but maybe I am wrong. But once you change your approach from is all this crap good enough, to how could I possibly improve it. You go from the LHT being entirely good enough, to not a single part of it coming home with you. And if people were honest, they would just admit it.

MassiveD

I am a little doubtful of the last point because even a conventional touring bike is not defined simply by it's ability to carry racks. We know they didn't design these things as a touring bikes, so what else did they not understand or include. And I also do not believe it is any more difficult to fix a rack to a carbon bike than bike packs. Are racks always necessary or the best solution, obviously not. But they sometimes are both.

MassiveD

That is the art of argument. You are practicing the art of ad hominem attacks. You are really crushing my points here by avoiding them and going directly for the personal attacks.

You mention five bikes by your name, maybe just a joke, but there are lots of people here who are serial bike buyers. I bought 3 boutique hubs well under the cost of one bike. I don't consider that extravagant.

But that is not fair, because you don't provide any to support your point simply assuming you are the census bureau. The guy is expressing an opinion, why does he need your permission or some unreasonable level of evidence nobody else seems to need it.

What he said where I saw it was that the LHT had low quality tubing. He did not say the bike was low quality some of the points like weight are true but just maters of taste. But people like you continually misquote him. Quality can refer to many things from stuff that has flaws that make it junk or dangerous; to something that might be better, even if it is good enough; to something that lacks attributes like customer service that may not bear on the thing itself, but on the overall experience of using it. By any standard I can reasonably think of it is not crazy to call LHT tubing low quality. I think there may be flaws, but there certainly is stuff like no documentation or brand, that does affect some people's experience or confidence. We all know the bikes hold up, but is the tubing the best, obviously not.

The difference is Apple at least seems to believe it has a plan to improve Iphones. I see no such commitments from Surly, they change the paint now and again.

OK, but that is the point, you people can't help yourself. The LHT is good enough but not the absolute best. I believe I said that best until you said it yourself.

Good enough doesn't really say much since for some people that is a week of 25 mile a day credit card touring, and for others it is non-stop adventure touring. Somewhere in there the LHT tends to disconnect.



At both ends of the athletic spectrum there are special cases. Keeping me on the road is a custom proposition, though it is not what this thread is about, or dependent on an LX hub vs some other. Soon I will probably need custom cranks. I can't really walk very far due to injuries, so maybe I have a right to build a bike that I am certain will not break down (though I don't particularly think that is the point). Again, you can have your five bikes, or whatever, I will have my own little bike that is as perfect as I can get it, and that makes me happy at least as far as bike collecting is concerned. The threat to people like you really doesn't exist but there seems to be an attitude that for someone else to claim a part is better detracts from the people packing the crap. I don't really see why, but it doesn't change the existence of better parts out there.



How very uncanadian of you. The point isn't that he needs to convince you. The point is that he is allowed to express his opinion without having to ask your permision. Nobody said you had to accept it. But it crosses a line when one acts as though he has to justify his position just to hold it himself, when the rest of you seem not to need to.

And again he did not say it was a low quality bike (though he may have elsewhere), he said the tubing was low quality.

Well it is unnecessary to do that to hold an opinion, particularly one that seems pretty obviously true.

It is also probably the case that any such survey would not be conclusive, and certainly nearly impossible for an individual to conduct. We already know it is a well regarded bike, people seem happy. So it is probably fruitless to set out to find contrary evidence, even if it were technically feasible. But that doesn't not all of a sudden give us specs on what crap tubes are in the bike.

Yeah, I do think that is a problem. The internet as a sounding board does not like bad news. You can conduct the experiment yourself. Go to amazon write some mild and very responsible negative reviews. Then do the same with positive reviews. I took my few incredibly mild neg reviews down because all that happens is you get pissed on. So unless a product is garbage you won't hear it here.

Yeah, the fact it is an entry level bike ridden by people with minimal ability to identify better products is a problem for taking their opinions overly seriously. Do you have the tools to measure a bike and determine if it is straight, or assess welds, or any of the other many factors that determine frame quality, did you do any of that stuff before you bought your last bike? People don't care nor should they, but then pretending like they are sages on such issues is pretty silly. If you haven't ridden quality, don't know what it is, couldn't measure it if you did; and wouldn't appreciate it if you found it, doesn't make anyone an expert in my book. What is wrong about liking beautiful bikes, or higher standards of workmanship, or product fit to task? Why is it always down to bling. What does that even mean when the world is full of people like you who know a lot about bikes I would imagine, but still could give a toss. Literally I have yet to meet the person, other than Mike Barry, and a friend in NY who even like this stuff.

nun

Many CF endurance and adventure/gravel bikes have great specs for touring and are built with very comfortable geometries. If you are ok with clamping a rack to the seat post or CF seat stays then there's really no excuse not to have CF bikes in the mix along with other frame materials. I find racks to be just another thing to carry and they make traveling with the bike more awkward and once I had my gear arranged so that I only needed an Ortlieb handlebar bag and a Carradice Camper saddlebag I was able to greatly expand my bike options without worrying about eyelets of clamping to CF.

Happy Feet

Funny, but I think there is something a little more serious going on with you. Good luck and ride safe.

FWIW, the Op has decided that perhaps the CT is not the perfect bike after all because it does not have attachment points for fenders and is now back to considering the Trek 720. I think eventually he will get there as he understands that touring is sort of about the compromise between perfection and practicality. That's just my opinion though.

mdilthey

Totally agree.

I like the cutthroat for the kind of touring it's designed for. I spent 6 hours today riding a Pugsley with 10lbs of gear, and the five miles of road I was on screamed "WRONG BIKE."

But gravel with rocks the size of your fist, ice sheets, snow, mud, creek crossings, rubble-strewn climbs with staircases of boulders.... It was the right bike, and it was perfect.

The cutthroat is a sweet bike, for off-road touring, where a fender is a liability. You can get something more fit to purpose with fenders if that's not your tune.

Squeezebox

I have seen some bent crashed bicycles, department store bicycles, maybe w/o brakes, ridden by people who did not know how to ride a bicycle properly. And a couple of racing crashes. One was a Tour de France rider than hit sign post at full speed and broke his bicycle in half. But he would have ruined a steel frame as well. Steel and Al bend, Carbon breaks. I have never seen a dented steel or Al frame. I've heard Carbon is more durable and fatigue resistant than Steel. But if you bend or break a frame you are probably in the hospital and your bicycle is the least of your worries. The spec sheets about tensile strength show that better tubing is thinner, lighter, and more damage resistant. I've never heard of a joint on a bicycle coming apart, and I would never hand it over to some car mechanic to burn holes in it.
Hey! just my opinion!
If you have a job above minimum wage maybe you can afford any bicycle you want.

Happy Feet

Yes, there really is no perfect bike. I have seven bikes atm (apparently a joke for some) all for different applications and because I just like working on bikes as part of my enjoyment of the hobby:

Two are converted mtb's for commuting/touring.
One old school department store C&V road bike.
Two other C&V's I am rebuilding. I will probably sell them to buy parts for my faster mtb.
An early era 5 speed mtb I converted into a cruiser style bike for picnics along the seawall.
and one is a front suspension mtb that I use to try and keep up with my son on trails... not gonna happen.

Perfection for me is not about the bike but what I do with them, like taking my son and brother on a tour and spending time with them or providing a place where my son and his friends can work on their own downhill bikes. It's supposed to be fun, not a competition.

Squeezebox

Also looking at the 920 seriously. I just can't afford a gravel touring bicycle, and a road touring bicycle. Someone mentioned that turning the 920 into a reasonable road tourer with skinny tires tighter cassette, would be easier than trying to make the 720 gravel worthy. The geometry of the 920 and LHT are pretty simular. But some changes need to be made to either. Another $200. So I'm still confused.
I just wish the the companies that make Paris- Roubais style bicycles would put fender and rack eyelets on. But tourers just don't make the glamour scale.

shelbyfv

Why don't you get a LHT like Tim's? Seems like a good choice for you.

Miele Man

You're kidding there, right?

Cheers

Miele Man

"Originally Posted by MassiveD...LHT is what you buy when you celebrate xmas at McDonalds ...but it is a cheap and nasty piece of junk that the average person wears ...The LHT is so far to the left on that spectrum you have a window seat, admittedly over the wing. But as long as you get your peanuts it feels like first class, which is a brilliant value ...I am really broad, I don't know why I should use bars designed for some guy who gets sand kicked in his face all the time."

I guess that's why so few SLHT are sold and why there are hundreds of instances of them failing.

Facts are that the Surly LHT IS a good touring bike for many folks many of whom do expedition type touring with heavy loads. Another fact is that the LHT comes with a decent groupset for its price and intended use. Another fact is that the LHT can be upgraded if the person wants to customize it. Yet another fact is that the bare frame can be bought and the person's favourite parts added to it. Still another fact is that the LHT lets many people enjoy extended touring without breaking the bank.

Perhaps that last point is what some find objectionqable about the LHT = they can't boast that they paid a humongous sum for theit bike?

Cheers

3alarmer 

.
...I read this whole thread, hoping to discover what constitutes the perfect touring bicycle. I want my ten minutes back.

3alarmer 

...in all honesty, that has not been my experience with the one Amazon negative book review I posted both here in America, and on Amazon in Germany and the UK (that's how dangerous I considered the advice contained therein.) Certainly, you get a fair share of whack jobs peddling a conspiracy theory, but more than a few people thanked me in writing. I don't generally post reviews, and certainly not of bike stuff, because that is a sure way to attract the unsavory characters of the world.

3alarmer 

...would be swell if true. I'm currently trying to figure out a way to push out a seat tube dent in a Richard Sachs frame I really like.

Squeezebox

Not being a smartass but how did the seat tube dent happen?? Still I have never seen a dented bicycle. But if you say so!!

shelbyfv

Dented frames are not uncommon. You haven't seen any because you are new to riding and don't ride with others. Seat tubes have been dented by over enthusiastic clamping of the FD. Top tubes are often dented when getting whacked by the end of the bars.

LeeG

Ever seen a bicycle crash?

mstateglfr 

You have said multiple times you were a bike mechanic and/or worked at a bike shop.
You have said you ride right now and have a road bike.

How have you never seen a bike with a dented tube?!?!

This doesnt add up...