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Old 03-14-16, 12:18 PM   #26
Chili Cheesy
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Nothing to do with you whatsoever and way too long of a story to get into.
Okay Gotcha' haha

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Originally Posted by mantelclock View Post
This is still my favorite ride, a '75 Motobecane Grand Touring. Replaced the downtube shifters to barcons, replaced FD and RD, replaced the rear freewheel with a Shimano 6 speed mega range freewheel, replaced bottom bracket with sealed bearing BB, replaced quill stem with one that I made on my lathe, to convert to 1". Replaced drop bars with specialized drops, replaced wheelset with set from Harris Cyclery, replaced crankset with mountain triple. Replaced pedals with VO touring pedals. The frame, saddle, and Weinman center pulls are original. Purchased new in 1976.



I dig it! Ya'll are gettin' me so pumped!
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Old 03-14-16, 12:26 PM   #27
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I should note that the changes to the Motobecane took place over a ten year period. There was no plan, and I definitely didn't use top shelf components, but everything works really well. My only regret is not changing to a cassette hub. It would have given me a lot more options for gearing.
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Old 03-14-16, 01:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Chili Cheesy View Post
...I dig it! Ya'll are gettin' me so pumped!
Have fun with it. One of the bikes I toe dipped into the touring pool was an '81 Raleigh Record Ace. Nothing was perfect; gearing was too high, frame was a little noodly, and the brakes under whelmed. All in all it helped provide an insight into the touring niche.

Brad

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Old 03-15-16, 10:06 AM   #29
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Too late I'm afraid... Already have all the parts.



Thanks for your input. I'll be replacing anything that ever needs replaced with an upgrade. Eventually it will have hand-built wheels on better hubs and a better bottom bracket, all on a new frame at that. I believe I'll eventually (once I transfer all the touring components from the Raleigh to a Surly frame) turn this bike back into a lil' light road bike with a 2 ring Sugino crankset. Those Are sexy.
Surlys ain't bad but are certainly not the lightest of frames. If you can save up some coinage you might try a company like Co-Motion really nice hand built frames MUSA and a bit lighter than a surly. It never hurts to go semi or full custom (except in the wallet) and it is nice after you have ridden a bike for a while and know what you like and don't like and maybe can better get that.
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Old 03-15-16, 12:27 PM   #30
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I should note that the changes to the Motobecane took place over a ten year period. There was no plan, and I definitely didn't use top shelf components, but everything works really well. My only regret is not changing to a cassette hub. It would have given me a lot more options for gearing.
My touring setup will as well be evolving over a span of years. I'm glad I am starting with all modern, common touring components for sure.

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Have fun with it. One of the bikes I toe dipped into the touring pool was an '81 Raleigh Record Ace. Nothing was perfect; gearing was too high, frame was a little noodly, and the brakes under whelmed. All in all it helped provide an insight into the touring niche.

Brad

I like the sound of that. I'm happy to start out with a finicky (noodly) touring mutant. I feel that it's the way it should be. I'll learn a lot and really appreciate my progress as I upgrade.

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Surlys ain't bad but are certainly not the lightest of frames. If you can save up some coinage you might try a company like Co-Motion really nice hand built frames MUSA and a bit lighter than a surly. It never hurts to go semi or full custom (except in the wallet) and it is nice after you have ridden a bike for a while and know what you like and don't like and maybe can better get that.
I checked Co-Motion out. Killer hand-built stuff. Maybe one day haha. Realistically I'll be going with something more affordable, not necessarily a Surly, but I love their style. There's sumthin' kinda' "no bull****, no bells and whistles, just good tough steel" about them that I dig.
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Old 03-15-16, 04:33 PM   #31
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My touring setup will as well be evolving over a span of years. I'm glad I am starting with all modern, common touring components for sure.



I like the sound of that. I'm happy to start out with a finicky (noodly) touring mutant. I feel that it's the way it should be. I'll learn a lot and really appreciate my progress as I upgrade.



I checked Co-Motion out. Killer hand-built stuff. Maybe one day haha. Realistically I'll be going with something more affordable, not necessarily a Surly, but I love their style. There's sumthin' kinda' "no bull****, no bells and whistles, just good tough steel" about them that I dig.
That is partly why I went with them in the first place! They make a great bunch of products, very practical and well built but maybe sometimes overbuilt for many things.
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Old 03-15-16, 07:57 PM   #32
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I personally like older bikes. I think that the term "noodly" is somewhat overused by those who are used to stiffer modern frames. And at around 220 pounds and a masher I probably know about frame flex.

It sounds like you have a good idea what you are getting into. The touring forum might not be the best place to ask, as most people here do prefer modern equipment, not all but most. And the squeeze box guy should just be ignored on general principal IMO.

I mostly use my older frames for either really light touring, Credit card or with just a hammock or bivy on a long weekend. Pictured are my Motobecane Grand Touring(Vitus, really flexy), and another mystery framed bike that I believe has columbus tubing. Both on three day trips. Both with original centerpul Mafac brakes and 27" wheels. Both have been loaded with full bags, and I lived.


I still do fully loaded touring on an 81 Centurion Elite, and another nicer 1990 touring bike. If I had a Grand Prix that fit me I am sure that I'd give it a go. Good luck.
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Old 03-17-16, 08:13 AM   #33
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I personally like older bikes. I think that the term "noodly" is somewhat overused by those who are used to stiffer modern frames. And at around 220 pounds and a masher I probably know about frame flex.

It sounds like you have a good idea what you are getting into. The touring forum might not be the best place to ask, as most people here do prefer modern equipment, not all but most. And the squeeze box guy should just be ignored on general principal IMO.

I mostly use my older frames for either really light touring, Credit card or with just a hammock or bivy on a long weekend. Pictured are my Motobecane Grand Touring(Vitus, really flexy), and another mystery framed bike that I believe has columbus tubing. Both on three day trips. Both with original centerpul Mafac brakes and 27" wheels. Both have been loaded with full bags, and I lived.


I still do fully loaded touring on an 81 Centurion Elite, and another nicer 1990 touring bike. If I had a Grand Prix that fit me I am sure that I'd give it a go. Good luck.
I like older bikes too for a million reasons, at least road bikes. Thank you for your optimism. It really helps me feel good about this project. ...and thanks for sharing those pictures of your beautiful bikes.
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Old 03-17-16, 08:47 AM   #34
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Whenever I am in the area of Carpenteria to Morro Bay I think of that bike: my GP -- probably was about the same vintage (bought used, looked new, it also was green, a bit heavy, came with a triple and had the seat stay that wraps the seat tube) -- was the 1st bike I ever did an overnighter on. The 1st night was miserable (cold, damp, no facilities). 2nd night was great (hotel room, breakfast) and, that combined with horse-to-barn syndrome resulted in possibly one of my longest 1-day rides.
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Old 03-17-16, 09:01 AM   #35
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Old bikes are cool. I rode an early 70's Peugeot UO8 converted to single speed for many years and LOVED it. It was old and cheap. I tossed it because french BB's were a little hard to find, --and replaced it with an 86 Raleigh Technium 440. It was my go-to SS for a while, spent some time built up as a full tourer, and is now back doing solid duty as my go-to workout SS and general knock around bike. I have numerous way-more-expensive bikes, but that 86 Raleigh SS is by far my all time favorite. I love that thing. Old bikes are cool.

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Old 03-17-16, 03:07 PM   #36
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Old Raleigh Grand Prix for Touring?

You haven't mentioned fenders? Maybe no need or reason? If they do become part of the equation they would restrict your tire size even more... To 32's? Which are fine to tour on of course (I'm usually on 28's) Just a thought...
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Old 03-17-16, 04:42 PM   #37
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You haven't mentioned fenders? Maybe no need or reason? If they do become part of the equation they would restrict your tire size even more... To 32's? Which are fine to tour on of course (I'm usually on 28's) Just a thought...
The Raleigh Gran Prix of that era was a 27 X 1.25 inch bike (bead diameter 630 mm). Thus, a 700c wheel (622 mm bead diameter) will provide even more room than the 27 inch tire, I would expect a 35mm tire or maybe a 37 to work fine inside fenders. I used Bluemel Popular fenders on my Gran Prix with the original tires and had good clearance.
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Old 03-19-16, 06:54 AM   #38
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Old bikes are cool. I rode an early 70's Peugeot UO8 converted to single speed for many years and LOVED it. It was old and cheap. I tossed it because french BB's were a little hard to find, --and replaced it with an 86 Raleigh Technium 440. It was my go-to SS for a while, spent some time built up as a full tourer, and is now back doing solid duty as my go-to workout SS and general knock around bike. I have numerous way-more-expensive bikes, but that 86 Raleigh SS is by far my all time favorite. I love that thing. Old bikes are cool.
I agree so much! I know that this, functionality wise, will be unnecessarily not optimal, but It's so worth the feeling I get from my 42-year-old English bike.

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You haven't mentioned fenders? Maybe no need or reason? If they do become part of the equation they would restrict your tire size even more... To 32's? Which are fine to tour on of course (I'm usually on 28's) Just a thought...
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The Raleigh Gran Prix of that era was a 27 X 1.25 inch bike (bead diameter 630 mm). Thus, a 700c wheel (622 mm bead diameter) will provide even more room than the 27 inch tire, I would expect a 35mm tire or maybe a 37 to work fine inside fenders. I used Bluemel Popular fenders on my Gran Prix with the original tires and had good clearance.

I forgot to mention that I do have Velo Orange 45mm hammered aluminum fenders.
They're beautiful. They don't fit between the chainstays at all, but that's taken care of. I have a p-clamp that makes it possible to mount the rear fender just above the chainstay bridge. works perfectly with my 35mm Schwalbe Marathon tires.
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Old 03-19-16, 08:07 AM   #39
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Pics will be up in a week more or less.
I'm waiting on the right dual-pivot brakes and my new choice for a crankset.
I ordered the wrong version of the brakes I chose. I'm learning a lot! haha
I got the recessed nut version for modern road bikes instead of the regular nutted version that's compatible with my bike. I didn't even know about the recessed kind.

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It was old Nottingham threading with cottered cranks. The BB is already refaced. It's ready for the standard, common BB's of today.
I need to confess... I fibbed about the refacing already being done to avoid questions and advice on this matter that people seem to stress as urgent. I thought I had that all figured out and those were my plans, but... I didn't even correctly understand what refacing was. I thought it meant to rethread, but now that I know what it means I see that "re" "face" is pretty self-explanatory. haha ...and rethreading is not possible.
My BB has a 26tpi threading, which is weird as hell and rare as hell too. It's because of the way things were before every manufacturer started agreeing to use standardized threading and measurements, etc. Raleigh in the Nottingham factory did their own thing and used their own threading.
My BB options are extremely limited with 26tpi.
Here's a link that lists some good reasons to use the Hollowtech II BB that I'm going to be using. Many of the reasons apply to me. Some don't.

ASK: Square taper or Outboard? | While Out Riding

Hollowtech II Cons for Me ​​:
outboard (external) bearings - more exposed and prone to more wear from water getting in
slightly wider Q factor (distance between cranks) - we'll see if I even notice

Pros: ...
I'll be in Latin America and things are different when you're in lesser developed countries.
THEY DON'T USE THREADS! - 26tpi not an issue!
Easy to find in larger cities throughout Latin America - a square taper BB with 26tpi... 100% guaranteed impossible
Really lightweight - I can carry a spare no problem
It's a stiffer BB - wider distance between bearings
Easy to fit
Contrary to what Shimano suggests, you CAN service them and regrease the bearings to extend their life -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g

I'm going with a Shimano Deore 22/32/44t 9-speed crankset, which is more like what I'd have preferred quality-wise to start with.

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Old 03-19-16, 10:07 AM   #40
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...
I need to confess... I fibbed about the refacing already being done to avoid questions and advice on this matter that people seem to stress as urgent. I thought I had that all figured out and those were my plans, but... I didn't even correctly understand what refacing was. I thought it meant to rethread, but now that I know what it means I see that "re" "face" is pretty self-explanatory. haha ...and rethreading is not possible......
That is why I told you to make sure you had bottom bracket sorted out first. When you said re-face, I assumed you meant re-thread. There used to be a shop in my community that rethreaded Nottingham frames for British thread. But they moved, not sure if other shops do it. Velo Orange used to sell a bottom bracket that would work. Phil also had the parts for a bottom bracket that fit in that frame.

But, you apparently have finally got it figured out.
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Old 03-19-16, 10:18 AM   #41
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snip . . .



I need to confess... I fibbed about the refacing already being done to avoid questions and advice on this matter that people seem to stress as urgent. I thought I had that all figured out and those were my plans, but... I didn't even correctly understand what refacing was. I thought it meant to rethread, but now that I know what it means I see that "re" "face" is pretty self-explanatory. haha ...and rethreading is not possible.
My BB has a 26tpi threading, which is weird as hell and rare as hell too. It's because of the way things were before every manufacturer started agreeing to use standardized threading and measurements, etc. Raleigh in the Nottingham factory did their own thing and used their own threading.
My BB options are extremely limited with 26tpi.

snip .
VO's website notes that customers have used their threadless BB on raleigh frames with a 71 mm BB:

Grand Cru Threadless Bottom Bracket

This is an excellent BB and you can use with a sugino xd 600 or 500 triple. I prefer the 500 since it comes with an inner 24 tooth steel chainring. Sugino XD 500T "Special Edition" Crank

On the other hand you can pick up the xd600 for considerably less: http://www.amazon.com/Sugino-175mm-2.../dp/B001GSSE2Q

Square taper cranks are an excellent design that have proven themselves over the years. A 110/74 bcd triple like the sugino was the standard for many, many years so chainrings are readily available.

This is likely to be your most cost effective solution and you will end up with a fine crank for touring.

Phil Wood has the right cups but that will cost you a pretty penny, https://www.philwood.com/products/bbpages/bbcups.php

Wood makes one of the best bottom brackets you can buy though.


You will also need a square taper crank, like the sugino, with this.

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Old 03-19-16, 10:59 AM   #42
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As I have mentioned... My BB has already been refaced for 24tpi. Problem solved.
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VO's website notes that customers have used their threadless BB on raleigh frames with a 71 mm BB:

Grand Cru Threadless Bottom Bracket

This is an excellent BB and you can use with a sugino xd 600 or 500 triple. I prefer the 500 since it comes with an inner 24 tooth steel chainring. Sugino XD 500T "Special Edition" Crank

On the other hand you can pick up the xd600 for considerably less: Amazon.com : Sugino x D600 175mm 26-36-46 74-110 7-8-Speed : Bike Cranksets And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

Square taper cranks are an excellent design that have proven themselves over the years. A 110/74 bcd triple like the sugino was the standard for many, many years so chainrings are readily available.

This is likely to be your most cost effective solution and you will end up with a fine crank for touring.

Phil Wood has the right cups but that will cost you a pretty penny, https://www.philwood.com/products/bbpages/bbcups.php

Wood makes one of the best bottom brackets you can buy though.

You will also need a square taper crank, like the sugino, with this.
I've recently gone through this exercise with a 1979 Raleigh-built "Gran Prix" clone, with the same 71mm BB shell and 26tpi threading. Let me save you some time and money:
  • Phil Woods cups + bottom bracket + special installation tool will cost you ~$200.
  • A Velo-Orange threadless bottom bracket + special installation tool + S/H will cost you ~$100.
  • Having an LBS reface-and-rethread the BB + a replacement cartridge BB will cost you ~$150.
Solution? Find out the BB spindle length which your crank set requires, and search-for-and-purchase the appropriate spindle.

Example: The original spindle on mine was 126mm (for an old S/R crank set with 165mm arms, a "fixed" outer ring, and an inner ring with obsolete 118mm BCD). So... I bought an S/R "SA" crankset (170mm arms and a 110BCD for both rings), which needed a 122mm spindle (32/55/35). I searched and searched, and a fellow BF member contacted me, offering a 120mm spindle (31/55/34). I finished installing/adjusting it this morning, and it fits like a champ! Of course, you'll need the wrenches for the BB cups and lock ring, but they're inexpensive, or easily borrowed.

Total cost? $8 for the spindle, $30 for the tools... a significant savings in money, and lots of pride in having DIY'd what otherwise would've been a substantial expense.

Good luck... and enjoy!

PS:
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I was a mechanic in a Raleigh shop in 1973 and have a 72 Gran Prix in the basement. I assume the 1974 is pretty similar.

Before you do ANYTHING, make sure that your bottom bracket plans will work. There is a high probability that it has the Raleigh Nottingham thread pattern, not British thread.

Threading/interchangeability Issues for Older Raleigh Bicycles


Some of the later Nottingham bikes had a square taper bottom bracket that fit in those threads, but if yours was cottered, you might be out of luck. There are shops that can re-thread the bottom bracket, but it generally is not worth the effort on that frame.

If you get the bottom bracket issue worked out and want to continue, let us know.
I *highly* recommend the Sheldon Brown article, which Tourist in MSN mentioned; it gave me the knowledge I sorely needed to assess my choices, make one, and then implement it.
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Old 03-19-16, 11:12 AM   #43
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There are some acceptable alternatives of new bicycles in the $1K to $1.5K range. Is that an option?
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Old 03-19-16, 10:09 PM   #44
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That's twice you've posted into this thread with unwanted comments. The OP is rebuilding his bike, not looking for alternatives. Go back to your thread about a new bike you plan to replace the drive train on and leave this one alone. No one wants your trolling.
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Old 03-19-16, 10:57 PM   #45
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wow. i'm impressed. i like this. a new poster
that does his own research and then asks informed
questions. and has a cool project to work on, too!
is there a bike forums best new poster award?

anyways, before we learned of the cartridge BB
incompatibility, i would have told you the un-55
is fine for touring. should last many years, no
need to carry a spare.

you said the BB was already refaced. i assume from
that it's in good condition. so just get a spindle and
use loose BB's. simplest solution and will work just
fine on a classic bike.
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Old 03-20-16, 09:18 AM   #46
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There are some acceptable alternatives of new bicycles in the $1K to $1.5K range. Is that an option?
Third time is a charm, better post this once more in the thread.
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Old 03-20-16, 12:56 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Chili Cheesy View Post

So, why exactly is it so important to have hand-built wheels? I do accept that it is the way to go. I hear the same thing from everyone. Just, why?
Others have already answered this, but I will say that you can get along fine with machine built wheels. To ensure you have no issues with them, have your mechanic de-tension and re-tension the spokes, this will ensure the spokes are tensioned evenly, similar to a hand build wheel. I had the rims on my LHT done this was when we set up the complete bike from Surly, and they have performed very well over the past few years, on tour and commuting carrying a lot of weight. I have never broken a poke and the rims are still in true after thousands of miles and heavy loads.

good luck with the build, I still love of Raleighs.
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Old 03-21-16, 08:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
That is why I told you to make sure you had bottom bracket sorted out first. When you said re-face, I assumed you meant re-thread. There used to be a shop in my community that rethreaded Nottingham frames for British thread. But they moved, not sure if other shops do it. Velo Orange used to sell a bottom bracket that would work. Phil also had the parts for a bottom bracket that fit in that frame.

But, you apparently have finally got it figured out.
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
VO's website notes that customers have used their threadless BB on raleigh frames with a 71 mm BB:

Grand Cru Threadless Bottom Bracket

This is an excellent BB and you can use with a sugino xd 600 or 500 triple. I prefer the 500 since it comes with an inner 24 tooth steel chainring. Sugino XD 500T "Special Edition" Crank

On the other hand you can pick up the xd600 for considerably less: Amazon.com : Sugino x D600 175mm 26-36-46 74-110 7-8-Speed : Bike Cranksets And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

Square taper cranks are an excellent design that have proven themselves over the years. A 110/74 bcd triple like the sugino was the standard for many, many years so chainrings are readily available.

This is likely to be your most cost effective solution and you will end up with a fine crank for touring.

Phil Wood has the right cups but that will cost you a pretty penny, https://www.philwood.com/products/bbpages/bbcups.php

Wood makes one of the best bottom brackets you can buy though.


You will also need a square taper crank, like the sugino, with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHoren View Post
I've recently gone through this exercise with a 1979 Raleigh-built "Gran Prix" clone, with the same 71mm BB shell and 26tpi threading. Let me save you some time and money:
  • Phil Woods cups + bottom bracket + special installation tool will cost you ~$200.
  • A Velo-Orange threadless bottom bracket + special installation tool + S/H will cost you ~$100.
  • Having an LBS reface-and-rethread the BB + a replacement cartridge BB will cost you ~$150.
Solution? Find out the BB spindle length which your crank set requires, and search-for-and-purchase the appropriate spindle.

Example: The original spindle on mine was 126mm (for an old S/R crank set with 165mm arms, a "fixed" outer ring, and an inner ring with obsolete 118mm BCD). So... I bought an S/R "SA" crankset (170mm arms and a 110BCD for both rings), which needed a 122mm spindle (32/55/35). I searched and searched, and a fellow BF member contacted me, offering a 120mm spindle (31/55/34). I finished installing/adjusting it this morning, and it fits like a champ! Of course, you'll need the wrenches for the BB cups and lock ring, but they're inexpensive, or easily borrowed.

Total cost? $8 for the spindle, $30 for the tools... a significant savings in money, and lots of pride in having DIY'd what otherwise would've been a substantial expense.

Good luck... and enjoy!

PS:


I *highly* recommend the Sheldon Brown article, which Tourist in MSN mentioned; it gave me the knowledge I sorely needed to assess my choices, make one, and then implement it.
Ok... I'm listening to all you guys.
I had ordered that Deore crankset w/ BB on ChainReactionCycles and luckily was able to get them on the phone this morning and cancel it.
I'm going to buy the Velo Orance Cru Threadless BB. I have a different qeustion I need do ask first though, that I'll write as a separate reply right after this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
wow. i'm impressed. i like this. a new poster
that does his own research and then asks informed
questions. and has a cool project to work on, too!
is there a bike forums best new poster award?

anyways, before we learned of the cartridge BB
incompatibility, i would have told you the un-55
is fine for touring. should last many years, no
need to carry a spare.

you said the BB was already refaced. i assume from
that it's in good condition. so just get a spindle and
use loose BB's. simplest solution and will work just
fine on a classic bike.
Thanks, Saddlesores. I'm glad your interested. I can't wait to show you guys the end result.
It's good to know for the future that an old loose-bearing BB would be sufficient, once overhauled. I'm definitely going with the Velo Orange Threadless though... I threw away my original BB parts. haha
Silly newbie, I know. I've been learning well from this project that I should be more careful not to jump the gun. I do think I would still prefer the modern BB anyway though, but wow... That was dumb, wasn't it? haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by phughes View Post
Others have already answered this, but I will say that you can get along fine with machine built wheels. To ensure you have no issues with them, have your mechanic de-tension and re-tension the spokes, this will ensure the spokes are tensioned evenly, similar to a hand build wheel. I had the rims on my LHT done this was when we set up the complete bike from Surly, and they have performed very well over the past few years, on tour and commuting carrying a lot of weight. I have never broken a poke and the rims are still in true after thousands of miles and heavy loads.

good luck with the build, I still love of Raleighs.
Wow... Good tip. Thank you. I think I'm going to do that. How long do you think it would take the mechanic to do that for my wheel set roughly. I'll be charged an hourly rate of $60 per hour ($20 for 20 minutes, etc.) at my LBS.
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Old 03-21-16, 08:53 AM   #49
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This question is about spindle length.
My Shimano Alivio 9-speed crankset says on the box to use a 113mm spindle, and the mechanic at the LBS said to go by that. It should be correct. The problem (maybe a problem, maybe not) is that my BB tube on the frame (what is the correct term for that? lol) is definitely not centered. the BB tube sticks out 2mm further on the non-drive side from the center of the seat tube than it does on the drive side. That means the spindle will be 1mm off center towards the non-drive side, right? I'm not asking if I'm right about the math. I know I am. I'm asking if the spindle will actually be off center because I assume most BB tubes are centered. Is that right?
...and if so, should I just stick with the 113mm and have my chainrings be 1mm closer to the frame than what it should be or go with a 115mm and put the chainrings 1mm further away from the frame than what's recommended?

Please help! haha
Please don't question the math. Please have a good and surprising mathematical explanation to straighten me out if you do.

Last edited by Chili Cheesy; 03-21-16 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 03-21-16, 10:05 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili Cheesy View Post
Wow... Good tip. Thank you. I think I'm going to do that. How long do you think it would take the mechanic to do that for my wheel set roughly. I'll be charged an hourly rate of $60 per hour ($20 for 20 minutes, etc.) at my LBS.


That I cannot answer. You will have to ask your mechanic. Sorry.
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