mdilthey

Stuck with a conundrum. I have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other.

The angel says:

The devil says:


The question in this case is whether or not to upgrade the rear hub on my Pugsley, from a Shimano Deore to a Hope Pro 2 Evo. My tentative plan was to buy spokes plus hub, and lace it myself to learn how, and have my shop check my work and clean it up.

What do you think? Who's in the "rung what you brung" camp, and who keeps their bike in perfect world-tour order?

Jim Kukula

learning how to build a wheel, that sounds good! Seems to me the thing to do is just buy another rim, too, and end up with two wheels! You can put different cassettes on - what fun!

alan s 

Support the economy by spending.

mstateglfr 

Its a Deore hub...toss a handful of new balls and some grease into each cup and the odds of a bearing failure are just incredibly small.

With that said, get a hub, some spokes, and a rim. Build a wheel or wheelset up and have fun.

Tourist in MSN

I build all my own wheels. But, I worked in a bike shop before I went to college, so I was paid to learn some of that stuff.

Sheldon has a very good tutorial at: Wheelbuilding

I do not know anyone that owns a spoke tension gauge for personal use. I have had a friend measure the tension in mine a couple times, he wrenches at a local bike charity and has access to a gauge.

Some claim that they can build them up in very little time, and maybe they can. But once I get the wheel laced up I probably take 45 minutes to an hour to actually true up a wheel. Take it slow, patience is rewarded when it comes to wheels. When I am nearly completed, I usually am using only a quarter or eighth of a turn on each nipple. One of the best ways to mess it up is to try to be too fast at it and make adjustments that are too large.

I own spoke wrenches, no other wheel building tools. I true it up in the frame using the brake blocks as my guide (I use rim brakes). I do not think owning a truing stand is necessary, but they are nice if you can borrow one.

Unfortunately for you, the easiest wheel to do is an undished one. So, you would be learning the hard way by starting on a rear wheel.

I used to buy my spokes at a local shop that would measure my rim and measure my hub to determine what spoke lengths I needed, but they moved so now I no longer have someone to measure that stuff for me. That can be the hardest part, figuring out what spoke lengths to get.

I usually use Wheelsmith DB-14 spokes, but DT and Sapim also have many followers. I used Sapim nipples on my Wheelsmith spokes on my last set of wheels and was happy with the results.

Now, what is wrong with Deore? I am using older steel axle XT hubs (M754 or M760) and I have no complaints about the steel axle Shimano hubs.

You previously said you might get a dynohub, if you did that, there is an excuse to learn how to build up a wheel.

Happy Feet

I think learning to build a wheel is good for its own sake and worth the investment if you like bikes the way you do.
I don't think you need to worry about a bearing failure.
Sometimes we do stuff for practical reasons, sometimes just for kicks.

DeadGrandpa

If you have no children, I think the answer is clear. Buy new parts, learn to build a wheel. Life is awesome on bikes.

mdilthey

You know, I never considered buying a rim, too, and building a whole new wheel. That's why I love this forum.

Salamandrine 

Yep, new wheel. That's what you should do, IMO. It's sort of helpful to have different wheelsets for different conditions, if that helps with your justification.

It basically never makes sense to replace a hub. If you're going to the trouble and expense of building a wheel, build it with new spokes and rims. You are wasting your time if you don't.

DropBarFan

Wouldn't replace good hubs that were working well unless planning a really heavy-duty tour or else putting in a dyno hub. Used to like building wheels but now store-bought wheels are usually pretty good so I don't bother. Once built a pair of wheels so true that a piece of paper wouldn't fit between rim & brake shoe, kewl.

bradtx

These days, with my touring bikes, I'm more or less in the run what you brung camp. I'd like to think my touring bike is up to a world tour.

On the other hand, I've 'upgraded' my roadies for some pretty trivial reasons and while the result didn't always justify the cost, it was fun and my curiosity was satisfied. In your case I'd choose a rim(s) to replace what you now have and add a dynamo front hub.

Brad

staehpj1

I came to this thread late, but yeah. If you really want to build a wheel with the new hub build a whole wheel and have a spare wheel.

Wheel building isn't terribly hard to learn and is a good skill to have. Sheldon's tutorial is a good one.

On the other hand the Deore is pretty unlikely to fail if given any maintenance at all. Mine have typically outlasted a couple rim replacements is using rim brakes. Also even if you let the races get pitted the wheels don't stop turning, so you can probably repack them and finish your tour or at least ride until somewhere that it is convenient to replace it.

alan s 

You came to the right place for advice then. But seriously, who here would recommend not spending money on new bike stuff?

saddlesores

it's not about what you want, but what you need!

you need a lightweight training wheel.

you need a heavier-dutier touring wheel.

you need a (...insert current want here....).

Tourist in MSN

No, you need two rims, the dynohub on the other wheel.

Do not overlook the cost of spokes, price can be quite variable. I have been quoted at local bike shops anything from $24 per wheel to $1.55 per spoke. My last build was with spokes that I got mail order, which unfortunately meant a bag of 50 spokes. So, I have 14 spare spokes per wheel.

saddlesores

altogether that's 28 spokes! build a rugged tandem wheel!

mdilthey

Yes, yes... a lightweight training wheel for my 36lb steel fatbike... Where do I throw my money?!

seeker333

It's not the balls that wear so much as the cup and cone in Shimano hubs.

Water intrusion due to immersion or cleaning with a pressurized hose will result in rapid corrosion, in the form of pitting of all bearing components. Shimano's labyrinth seal keeps out dirt/foreign matter OK but doesn't stop water - in fact this "seal" will trap water in the bearing cavity where it emulsifies the grease, greatly shortening bearing life. The only remedy is to disassemble, clean and repack.

Normal wear will erode a rounded track into the cup, and to lesser extent the cone, and the bearings wear too although it is easier to observe the track formation. This process takes thousands of miles/hundreds of hours depending on load and hardness of bearing parts.

The cup is pressed in and cannot be replaced on Shimano hubs, spares are not made or sold. Replacing the balls and grease will allow slightly smoother operation even after the wear track becomes evident as suggested in post no. 12. Once you can see the wear track it is time to start looking for a deal on a replacement hub. You can still use the old hub for hundreds/thousands of miles, but a wheel rebuild is definitely coming.

The advantage of a hub which employs cartridge (aka sealed) bearings is that they can be replaced and the hub's life extended infinitely - in theory at least. Many hubs require specialized tools to permit bearing replacement, and the tools may cost as much as the hub, so as a result only a few LBSs might have the tools to facilitate a bearing swap, and the bearings may be an oddball size so that special ordering is required and the cost may not be trivial. DT hubs used to be this way and probably still are. A few hubs do not require special tools and bearings may not be too unusual or expensive (PW, Hope, VO come to mind).

Another part which might fail is the freewheel mechanism, which again may require special tools and an expensive replacement part.

In the end one must accept the fact that hubs are simply another part subject to failure and eventually requiring replacement - one of hundreds on a bicycle. This is why Shimano hubs have historically been a smart choice - they are not the longest lasting but they are readily available and inexpensive. Most of them made in the past ~20 years are designed with the same flange diameter (45mm PCD) and almost same spacing, so that one can simply swap a new hub into an existing wheel and reuse the spokes (probably good idea to rebuild with new nipples).

WRT building wheels just for the experience, it's hard to justify since quite a few wheel suppliers sell wheels for only a little bit more than the price of parts. QBP's "Quality Wheels" are a good deal in economical wheels - you can get a 36h set suitable for a LHT frameset buildup for as little as $150, for a set where the rims and spokes would cost $167 ordered from the cheapest QBP online store (Velocity NoBS rims and WS SG spokes+nipples, which doesn't include hubs and substitutes less costly WS spokes for DT sold in 100 packs)!

It is not too hard to lace a wheel and true it well laterally. It gets more complicated when you then attempt to true the wheel radially (take out the high/lows in the "hop"), then recover the lateral true. It yet again gets more complicated when you move from the easier front wheel build to a dished, asymmetrically-tensioned rear wheel, which is basically all rear wheels with a cassette/freewheel. After you do all this, you need to use a tensiometer to check for under/over tensioned spokes and try to reduce these outliers, which can be 1/3 of the spokes and requires a complete redo of the aforementioned lateral/radial truing steps. Additionally, if you wish to prevent the spokes from their eventual, inexorable detensioning and concomitant de-truing of the wheel, you need to use some kind of threadlocker compound like Spokeprep, Loctite blue or boiled linseed oil (also an excellent steel frame rustproofing agent). I used penetrating Loctite green on my last wheel build, adding it after build was complete to avoid messy handling associated with all other threadlockers.

Building a good durable wheel is not a trivial matter, and in some cases it is not economically sensible.

Sorry this is likely TL/DR for most of you. It could be much longer, but my tall lawn beckons.

mdilthey

I want to tell you that this post is gospel, and I'm so very glad you took the time to write it. You've reaffirmed my desire to go with the Hope cartridge hub over the Deore hub. I use XT hubs on all my other bikes, with the assumption that I will ruin them on a long enough timeline. For the fatbike, which will see winter and beach use, I want the security of a more serviceable hub and I am happy with the Surly hub on the front.

So, I am definitely going with a Hope Pro 2 Evo. I will likely lace it myself, and let the wheelbuilder at my local shop do the final tensioning/truing with me observing carefully. I don't want to mess up a rim, and I do need a completely reliable wheel.

Thanks for all the advice. I'll refer back to this several times over the next few weeks.

Tourist in MSN

I do not want to get into a back and forth argument on the merits of some form of thread locker, but I think it is best if none is used. The only time a nipple would be expected to un-thread itself would be if the spokes were too loose in the first place, probably on the non-drive side of the rear.

Regarding your reply to my comment about having 14 spokes left over per wheel, I am clueless about what you are trying to say here.

Drew Eckhardt 

Nope. Sufficient tension is all it takes, noting that more flexible rims sometimes need thinner spokes with more stretch to stay within their limits. That's OK - the proliferation of 2.3mm hub drilling compatible aero spokes like the DT Aerolite and Sapim CX-Ray have shown us that 2.0/1.5mm spokes work great even for heavier riders provided you use a high enough spoke count for the rider weight. The extra windup is easy to compensate for with tape flags on the first spoke (front) or two (rear) after the hole or Sharpie dots on every spoke.

Jobst Brandt recommends oil in _The Bicycle Wheel_, although I prefer grease or anti-seize to keep water out after the build.

When I build wheels that way they stay true until they have an accident which bends the rim or damages a spoke.

It's simple enough school children can do it, with Jobst testing his book by having each of his grade school sons build a wheelset with no additional help.

It depends on your time frame. Over years you win as long as you consider wheel building a meditative activity not a sacrifice of billable hours.

Properly tensioned and stress relieved quality spokes last for hundreds of thousands of miles provided you avoid chloride corrosion stress cracks and knicks from things like over-shifted chains.

Wear out or bend a Sun Ringle and you can have a good-as-new wheel for under $25 and half the time it takes to build from scratch. Remove tension, tape the new rim on in three places, transfer spokes one at a time taking the opportunity to lubricate nipple threads and rim sockets, cut tape, and finish as you would a normal wheel build although you're starting with stress relieved spokes with spoke lines corrected.

That's in-line with the least expensive wheels from QBP.

You can also do the same with $80 rims on Dura Ace or Record hubs that'd cost a lot more to duplicate as complete wheels.

Bearings go too but can usually be replaced (except for Shimano cups)

MassiveD

Doesn't change your mileage, but I have one. Plus you can get a dial indicator which is the main part used in the Jobst device, for about 6-10 bucks. That said while a spoke gauge is nice to have it is not necessary to build a bomb proof wheel. The explanations in Jobst's book do not require a gauge, though he obviously advocated it.

MassiveD

Jobst was a believer that the spokes you have are the best ones to go on with. So spokes don't normally wear out if good quality and fit, they prove themselves. But for a variety of sensible reasons, even high end wheel builders will not normally recycle spokes, reason enough to do wheels yourself.

MassiveD

Bikes are pretty much the least commoditisable things. Many, many parts, each one begging to be optimized just as you wish it to be, and lovingly installed to perfection. Yet there is always the bike expert, whose main expertise is in surfing the web for generic deals. I don't want to save only a few bucks to get a whole pile of parts that aren't on my list, but maybe one signature part that is.

The only question I wonder about is if you are getting enough hub? Go to a bike shop and hold a White hub...

rhm

With proper lubrication, hubs with decent bearings last a very very long time. The cups and cones develop a polished ring, but that's not a sign that they're wearing out. If you ride with deteriorated grease, pits can develop; but that's not normal wear and tear. That's extreme, and an overhaul --or even a little oil dripped in-- would have prevented it.

If you're going to go to the effort of building a wheel, build it with a dynamo hub. And yes, anyone can build a wheel. Getting it radially true (round, that is) is not difficult; nor is lateral true, proper tension, etc. The skilled professional can do it quickly, while it may tax the novice's patience, but it's worth it.