Failure mode of overloaded factory LHT.
06-25-16, 03:34 PM
#1
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Failure mode of overloaded factory LHT.
Split the alex rims. Surly rear rack, properly tensioned wheels. Well over reasonable capacity with rider plus cargo. The wheel post-mortem is attached. I'm just glad that the weak link was a 40usd replacement and not the rack or frame.
I've had good luck with 36 spoke Sun Ringle disk rims on a MTB. If the Alex fails again, are Rhyno lites any stronger?
I've had good luck with 36 spoke Sun Ringle disk rims on a MTB. If the Alex fails again, are Rhyno lites any stronger?
06-25-16, 03:56 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 6,489
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1182 Post(s)
Liked 833 Times
in
435 Posts
I'm going to apologize right now for all the posts and pictures from me today. My wife and I are sitting out severe thunder storms and rain while on a tour. I'm bored silly,but I have managed to figure out how to download pictures from Photobucket to posts on this site using my phone.
Back on topic. You might consider Velocity Dyad rims. They have a good reputation. I've used them for several thousand miles of touring with reasonable loads, and have not had any problems.
Rims with spoke hole eylets seem to have problems with cracks.
Mavic rim.
Back on topic. You might consider Velocity Dyad rims. They have a good reputation. I've used them for several thousand miles of touring with reasonable loads, and have not had any problems.
Rims with spoke hole eylets seem to have problems with cracks.
Mavic rim.
06-25-16, 09:30 PM
#3
Senior Member
what was the load.....rider and cargo?
all asphalt or cobblestones or PB?
had a similar (but not as bad) rear CR18 go, replaced with
a rhyno lite. no further problems.
if you want super heavy duty, you could try a sun mammoth
fat downhill rim. super heavy duty, super heavy as well,
but that may not matter in your case.
all asphalt or cobblestones or PB?
had a similar (but not as bad) rear CR18 go, replaced with
a rhyno lite. no further problems.
if you want super heavy duty, you could try a sun mammoth
fat downhill rim. super heavy duty, super heavy as well,
but that may not matter in your case.
06-25-16, 10:12 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 720
Bikes: Road, mountain and track bikes and tandems.
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times
in
15 Posts
cracked rim
My opinion is that the spoke tension was too high, just my opinion. Been building wheels since '76
06-25-16, 11:23 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,482
Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1237 Post(s)
Liked 321 Times
in
248 Posts
Agree 100% with Doug. Eyelets are pure JUNK science.
My Dyads have done 19,000 miles, many at 290 lbs GVW. Just the 2 wheels are 15 lbs.
My Dyads have done 19,000 miles, many at 290 lbs GVW. Just the 2 wheels are 15 lbs.
06-25-16, 11:34 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18377 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Dyads should also have 40h and 48h options.
Rim failure around the nipples is not that uncommon. I had an old tubular rim that did that... I found it that way under my roommate's bed. I have no idea if it just spontaneously sprung, or someone "borrowed" my bike.
Rim failure around the nipples is not that uncommon. I had an old tubular rim that did that... I found it that way under my roommate's bed. I have no idea if it just spontaneously sprung, or someone "borrowed" my bike.
06-26-16, 12:18 AM
#7
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Looks like sun doesn't make mammoths any more. MTB wheels are becoming mostly disk unfortunately. The mtx disk wheels I built were absolutely bomb proof, but I'd like to stick with rim brakes for touring.
It's interesting to see anti eyelet opinions. Most claim the opposite. I'd definitely use eyelets with aluminium nips to avoid galling, but I doubt anyone with 36x12g uses aluminium nips. Velocity wheels had a reputation for splitting a few years ago.
It's interesting to see anti eyelet opinions. Most claim the opposite. I'd definitely use eyelets with aluminium nips to avoid galling, but I doubt anyone with 36x12g uses aluminium nips. Velocity wheels had a reputation for splitting a few years ago.
06-26-16, 06:11 AM
#8
Senior Member
ExtremeSquared, How many miles and how much overloaded?
Here's a link to a post about Velocity Chukker rims I was considering for my primary touring bike: https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/10...fo-please.html The only reason I didn't buy them at the time is because the rims on my second touring bike weren't as bad as I thought, which were going to be replaced with the primary bike's wheel set.
Otherwise I think that build quality has as much, or more, to do with wheel longevity than eyelets (an old debate) or even many of the other aspects to what makes a good wheel that we nit-pick over.
Brad
Here's a link to a post about Velocity Chukker rims I was considering for my primary touring bike: https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/10...fo-please.html The only reason I didn't buy them at the time is because the rims on my second touring bike weren't as bad as I thought, which were going to be replaced with the primary bike's wheel set.
Otherwise I think that build quality has as much, or more, to do with wheel longevity than eyelets (an old debate) or even many of the other aspects to what makes a good wheel that we nit-pick over.
Brad
06-26-16, 01:12 PM
#9
Banned.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,077
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
A lot of tandems now a days are running on 28 spokes with 350 lb teams. What are you doing that's more severe than that?
I still have not heard from anyone with a list of the 100 lbs of stuff they carry on a heavy tour. There are a few places in the world where 20 L of water might make sense, along with enough food. But a good water filter weighs less than 3 oz. in most places.
I still have not heard from anyone with a list of the 100 lbs of stuff they carry on a heavy tour. There are a few places in the world where 20 L of water might make sense, along with enough food. But a good water filter weighs less than 3 oz. in most places.
06-26-16, 01:46 PM
#10
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
300+ pound rider, ~40lbs groceries, 50lbs dog food. The rear axle weight was too high.
These are the first wheels I haven't built in a while -- they were the factory wheels at factory tension. If anything, they were under-tensioned. There are a lot of us at the C+A forum that build our own wheels and are pretty good at making high mileage x high axle weight wheels by keeping inside the margin between static failure and flex failure. I rebuilt the wheel with another alex, at a tension proportional to rider size this time. I doubt the alex is a bad rim if used with standard touring loads.
These are the first wheels I haven't built in a while -- they were the factory wheels at factory tension. If anything, they were under-tensioned. There are a lot of us at the C+A forum that build our own wheels and are pretty good at making high mileage x high axle weight wheels by keeping inside the margin between static failure and flex failure. I rebuilt the wheel with another alex, at a tension proportional to rider size this time. I doubt the alex is a bad rim if used with standard touring loads.
A lot of tandems now a days are running on 28 spokes with 350 lb teams. What are you doing that's more severe than that?
I still have not heard from anyone with a list of the 100 lbs of stuff they carry on a heavy tour. There are a few places in the world where 20 L of water might make sense, along with enough food. But a good water filter weighs less than 3 oz. in most places.
I still have not heard from anyone with a list of the 100 lbs of stuff they carry on a heavy tour. There are a few places in the world where 20 L of water might make sense, along with enough food. But a good water filter weighs less than 3 oz. in most places.
06-26-16, 01:51 PM
#11
Senior Member
Also, even though you refuse to read the post that refute your ridiculous claims, it has been pointed out to you time and time again that tandem teams use tandem rear spacing, which effectively allows for less spokes. Tandems may also use specially reinforced or offset rims or both.
I still have not heard from anyone with a list of the 100 lbs of stuff they carry on a heavy tour. There are a few places in the world where 20 L of water might make sense, along with enough food. But a good water filter weighs less than 3 oz. in most places.
Also as a side note, I'd like to see you try to suck out water out of desert sand with your techy water filter.
06-26-16, 02:33 PM
#12
Senior Member
Brad
06-26-16, 05:17 PM
#14
-
"...Very generally speaking, we feel comfortable with combined rider and cargo weight of up to about 300lbs..."
https://surlybikes.com/info_hole/faqs...g_haul_trucker
Have you considered a cargo trailer, like a Burley Nomad?
https://burley.com/product/nomad/
BTW 2.0mm diameter = 14 GA
https://surlybikes.com/info_hole/faqs...g_haul_trucker
Have you considered a cargo trailer, like a Burley Nomad?
https://burley.com/product/nomad/
BTW 2.0mm diameter = 14 GA
06-26-16, 05:28 PM
#16
06-26-16, 08:35 PM
#18
Senior Member
A lot of tandems now a days are running on 28 spokes with 350 lb teams. What are you doing that's more severe than that?
I still have not heard from anyone with a list of the 100 lbs of stuff they carry on a heavy tour. There are a few places in the world where 20 L of water might make sense, along with enough food. But a good water filter weighs less than 3 oz. in most places.
I still have not heard from anyone with a list of the 100 lbs of stuff they carry on a heavy tour. There are a few places in the world where 20 L of water might make sense, along with enough food. But a good water filter weighs less than 3 oz. in most places.
high-tech one-off tandem in one of your silly threads to "prove"
that the crappy 24-spoked wheels on your unused 920 were
somehow capable of surviving wally-world speed bumps.
100 pounds of stuff? from another thread "toured with front and
rear bags plus trailer. fully laden, with 5 gallons of water and
several days of food, bike+stuff would be around 175 pounds."
had stuff like: 3-man 3-season tent, heavy-duty hiking boots,
trangia 2-pot stove set, dozen rolls of slide film, slr camera
with extra lens, 3-4 paperback novels, spare tires, gold pan.
afraid i don't have a complete list, i wasn't aware at the time
that i'd need to "prove" anything to basement trolls. guess
i was just too busy just touring......
06-26-16, 10:30 PM
#19
Banned.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Vegemite Island
Posts: 4,130
Bikes: 2017 Surly Troll with XT Drive Train, 2017 Merida Big Nine XT Edition, 2016 Giant Toughroad SLR 2, 1995 Trek 830
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1916 Post(s)
Liked 310 Times
in
218 Posts
Looks like sun doesn't make mammoths any more. MTB wheels are becoming mostly disk unfortunately. The mtx disk wheels I built were absolutely bomb proof, but I'd like to stick with rim brakes for touring.
It's interesting to see anti eyelet opinions. Most claim the opposite. I'd definitely use eyelets with aluminium nips to avoid galling, but I doubt anyone with 36x12g uses aluminium nips. Velocity wheels had a reputation for splitting a few years ago.
It's interesting to see anti eyelet opinions. Most claim the opposite. I'd definitely use eyelets with aluminium nips to avoid galling, but I doubt anyone with 36x12g uses aluminium nips. Velocity wheels had a reputation for splitting a few years ago.
I've been using the Disc version of these rims and when I go grocery shopping with a basket on my rear rack and have my 65L backpack on, the weight on the bike is well in excess of 450lbs, albeit I am only commuting within a city.
06-27-16, 12:00 AM
#20
Senior Member
The funny thing about touring is that you don't have to tour where you live (which you would know if you toured)
I'm not currently touring finland. I'm somewhere else. Don't know yet whether we'll face deserts as we don't have a set plan.
I'm not currently touring finland. I'm somewhere else. Don't know yet whether we'll face deserts as we don't have a set plan.
06-27-16, 09:06 AM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,904
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2604 Post(s)
Liked 1,933 Times
in
1,213 Posts
+1.
Which doesn't make much sense, given the statement further down that these were factory tensioned. Since most machine built wheels are sorely undertensioned, perhaps this was a manufacturing defect in the rim? Heat treatment wasn't quite up to snuff, etc.
It's likely that the mis-manufactured rims are out of the distribution channels by now, but if you don't want to take that chance, look at Sun CR-18, Mavic A317, or the like.
06-27-16, 09:17 AM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,242
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18416 Post(s)
Liked 15,555 Times
in
7,331 Posts
Love it when the guy who cannot even manage to get out on the Katy for a few days offers "expert" advice. And did we ever see a proof of life photo of the alleged bike?
06-27-16, 12:16 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,094
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1034 Post(s)
Liked 1,290 Times
in
743 Posts
300+ pound rider, ~40lbs groceries, 50lbs dog food. The rear axle weight was too high.
These are the first wheels I haven't built in a while -- they were the factory wheels at factory tension. If anything, they were under-tensioned. There are a lot of us at the C+A forum that build our own wheels and are pretty good at making high mileage x high axle weight wheels by keeping inside the margin between static failure and flex failure. I rebuilt the wheel with another alex, at a tension proportional to rider size this time. I doubt the alex is a bad rim if used with standard touring loads.
These are the first wheels I haven't built in a while -- they were the factory wheels at factory tension. If anything, they were under-tensioned. There are a lot of us at the C+A forum that build our own wheels and are pretty good at making high mileage x high axle weight wheels by keeping inside the margin between static failure and flex failure. I rebuilt the wheel with another alex, at a tension proportional to rider size this time. I doubt the alex is a bad rim if used with standard touring loads.
That being said, I am not saying that is what caused them to fail, you already offered good reason for their failure. I'm sure the overall weight was what it took to reveal the weakness in the rim. In the future though, you can get more out of a machine built rim if you de-tension and re-tension them before using. Who knows, it may not have failed if it had been done.
Last edited by phughes; 06-27-16 at 12:19 PM.
06-27-16, 12:29 PM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,242
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18416 Post(s)
Liked 15,555 Times
in
7,331 Posts
I have a 2011 LHT and am fortunate to have relationships with shops who employee knowledgeable wheel people. I don't go ultra light and subject the bike to abuse. Indeed, just got back from an 11 day tour in Montana which featured some very harsh, unpaved roads, including one 20 mile section of dirt/rocks/gravel with massive washboards in places, including on descents. Third time the bike has been over that road since I got it. I think the wheels have been worked on twice. With that said, I am curious as to what rim the OP broke. My '11 LHT came stock with Alex Adventurer rims. IIRC, Surly switched to a different rim a few years ago.
06-27-16, 12:37 PM
#25
Senior Member
I had a Velocity Dyad rim that was showing signs of cracking at the nipple holes. Switched to a Mavic 719, eyeletted rim and didn't have any issues. But I also had a couple more wheel builds under my belt at that point, so it could have been the build, but given the option, I'll take eyelets over no eyelets. But I'll still do no eyelets if that's what's available.