Chain Durability: 9-Speed vs 10-Speed vs 11-Speed
10-12-16, 10:49 AM
#26
Senior Member
We are talking about $10 +/- difference in comparable chains, once every 6k or so miles, I'll go through $200 in tires and a good 10 tubes in that same time.
$10 is $10, I get it, but pretty insignificant in the grand scheme.
Shifters on the other hand....
$10 is $10, I get it, but pretty insignificant in the grand scheme.
Shifters on the other hand....
10-12-16, 11:51 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Erie Penna.
Posts: 1,141
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
I suspect the answer lies in the fact that "could" or "would" for a longer lasting 7 to 9 chain isn't going to happen, even if it could. Why would a company put the money and time into a production line change for something that is just part of consumables, they do want to sell new chains so why make a chain in this range that lasts twice as long when this chain range is already long past what is new?
On top of that, most of people I know who ride bikes once in a while, or sometimes, or even regularly, don't care or think about chain wear, or chain lube, or any of this nerdy stuff. They just ride their bike forever until one day something breaks or they take it to a shop and are told that they need a new chain--this could take ten years.
and anyway, getting 5000km out of a chain is ok with me. Keeping an eye on wear is always going to end up being less expensive, for not having to replace cassettes, but again, I have friends who just take the "ignore it" method and never change anything until they have to, and then will get a new cassette on also, and or ride their chainrings into shark tooth thingees, but they dont care (and also don't notice how shifting tends to get less precise when your chain gets to its 1/16 of an inch stretch point, I do notice it).
On top of that, most of people I know who ride bikes once in a while, or sometimes, or even regularly, don't care or think about chain wear, or chain lube, or any of this nerdy stuff. They just ride their bike forever until one day something breaks or they take it to a shop and are told that they need a new chain--this could take ten years.
and anyway, getting 5000km out of a chain is ok with me. Keeping an eye on wear is always going to end up being less expensive, for not having to replace cassettes, but again, I have friends who just take the "ignore it" method and never change anything until they have to, and then will get a new cassette on also, and or ride their chainrings into shark tooth thingees, but they dont care (and also don't notice how shifting tends to get less precise when your chain gets to its 1/16 of an inch stretch point, I do notice it).
So the issue then becomes not one of quality because both meet the requirements.
What other things beyond quality would factor in for the tourist then?
10-12-16, 12:26 PM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,199
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3459 Post(s)
Liked 1,465 Times
in
1,143 Posts
Your thread title was on durability, but you also discuss chain strength. Chain strength and chain durability are quite different.
Regarding durability, I get good enough chain life that I really have no clue what kinds of mileage I get. Around home I take good care of my chains, but I am quite sloppy with my chains when touring as I generally discard the chain at the end of the tour. I bought several cheap chains for $5 USD, my time is more valuable than taking time to obsess over a $5 chain.
I have some very worn chains that I have accumulated that I set aside to use in winter, the road deicing chemicals are disastrous to a chain, thus I plan to discard the chain in spring when I pull the studded tires off the bike.
What is important to me is that all my bikes (other than a vintage 3 speed SA bike) use the same chains and same quick links. Thus it is easy to replace a chain on any of my bikes.
Regarding durability, I get good enough chain life that I really have no clue what kinds of mileage I get. Around home I take good care of my chains, but I am quite sloppy with my chains when touring as I generally discard the chain at the end of the tour. I bought several cheap chains for $5 USD, my time is more valuable than taking time to obsess over a $5 chain.
I have some very worn chains that I have accumulated that I set aside to use in winter, the road deicing chemicals are disastrous to a chain, thus I plan to discard the chain in spring when I pull the studded tires off the bike.
What is important to me is that all my bikes (other than a vintage 3 speed SA bike) use the same chains and same quick links. Thus it is easy to replace a chain on any of my bikes.
10-12-16, 01:11 PM
#29
Senior Member
Here in Montreal, a regular mid range sram 9 spd chain is still about 30 dollars, things are more expensive in Canada generally compared to the states and if we do the amazon.com thing, you get into duty and shipping that most often comes out to the same.
10-12-16, 01:21 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,899
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2602 Post(s)
Liked 1,925 Times
in
1,208 Posts
I've tried to standardize consumables across my fleet as much as I can. Chains? Here's one. Need a tire? Here's one. (OK, sometimes I'm picky there.) At least so far they haven't figured out how to make bar tape specific to a certain kind of bike.
One of the worst mistakes I ever made was replacing a couple spokes with a different-sized nipple. Truing was a nightmare: 30 spokes with one size, and the other two took a different size. I quickly lost the two different ones in the truing process, and kept finding them all night long.
10-12-16, 03:47 PM
#31
Banned
OK after 6 begat a narrower 7 and 8 was added to 7 .. after that the chains had to be narrowed to fit in the narrower space
for 9, and narrower yet for 10 and 11.. measure side plate thickness and roller width.
realize what supports the Roller is a thin flange of metal displaced by punching the Holes in the inner link
This is what has become of the wear surface supporting the Pin too.. concentrating the wear over a narrower surface
allows it to wear longer ?
for 9, and narrower yet for 10 and 11.. measure side plate thickness and roller width.
realize what supports the Roller is a thin flange of metal displaced by punching the Holes in the inner link
This is what has become of the wear surface supporting the Pin too.. concentrating the wear over a narrower surface
allows it to wear longer ?
10-12-16, 09:54 PM
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jasper Alberta
Posts: 469
Bikes: Surly Ogre
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I find that I snap 10 speed chains about the same rate that I break a single speed chain, about once every 3000 km. But I also find that I get about twice the life span out of a single speed chain (3000 km vs 6000 km). I've never had a 9 speed and I wasn't really into huge milage when I had a cheap department store 7 speed as a kid.
When on tour I replaced my 10 speed chain at the same time I replace my woman's 8 speed chain. They last about the same amount of miles and if I've got the tool out I might as well do both chains at the same time. I couldn't bother to push a chain a little bit further just to save a few bucks over the course of a few decades.
Cassettes and chainrings? I find I get a better lifespan out of the 10 speed stuff than the 8 speed stuff. But the 8 speed parts cost less. IMO it works out about the same in the end.
Performance wise, the newer stuff blows the older stuff out of the water. 1x and 2x systems are super sweet, I love the modern RD's and couldn't imagine going back 7/8/9 speed system for the relative lack of gear range vs a 10/11 speed.
When on tour I replaced my 10 speed chain at the same time I replace my woman's 8 speed chain. They last about the same amount of miles and if I've got the tool out I might as well do both chains at the same time. I couldn't bother to push a chain a little bit further just to save a few bucks over the course of a few decades.
Cassettes and chainrings? I find I get a better lifespan out of the 10 speed stuff than the 8 speed stuff. But the 8 speed parts cost less. IMO it works out about the same in the end.
Performance wise, the newer stuff blows the older stuff out of the water. 1x and 2x systems are super sweet, I love the modern RD's and couldn't imagine going back 7/8/9 speed system for the relative lack of gear range vs a 10/11 speed.
10-13-16, 09:09 AM
#33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,923
Bikes: Nature Boy 853 Disc, Pugsley SS
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 251 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
6 Posts
I find that I snap 10 speed chains about the same rate that I break a single speed chain, about once every 3000 km. But I also find that I get about twice the life span out of a single speed chain (3000 km vs 6000 km). I've never had a 9 speed and I wasn't really into huge milage when I had a cheap department store 7 speed as a kid.
When on tour I replaced my 10 speed chain at the same time I replace my woman's 8 speed chain. They last about the same amount of miles and if I've got the tool out I might as well do both chains at the same time. I couldn't bother to push a chain a little bit further just to save a few bucks over the course of a few decades.
Cassettes and chainrings? I find I get a better lifespan out of the 10 speed stuff than the 8 speed stuff. But the 8 speed parts cost less. IMO it works out about the same in the end.
Performance wise, the newer stuff blows the older stuff out of the water. 1x and 2x systems are super sweet, I love the modern RD's and couldn't imagine going back 7/8/9 speed system for the relative lack of gear range vs a 10/11 speed.
When on tour I replaced my 10 speed chain at the same time I replace my woman's 8 speed chain. They last about the same amount of miles and if I've got the tool out I might as well do both chains at the same time. I couldn't bother to push a chain a little bit further just to save a few bucks over the course of a few decades.
Cassettes and chainrings? I find I get a better lifespan out of the 10 speed stuff than the 8 speed stuff. But the 8 speed parts cost less. IMO it works out about the same in the end.
Performance wise, the newer stuff blows the older stuff out of the water. 1x and 2x systems are super sweet, I love the modern RD's and couldn't imagine going back 7/8/9 speed system for the relative lack of gear range vs a 10/11 speed.
I've replaced lots of chains. Part of it is my constant bike editing- someone on this forum said it better than I ever could. "I seem to be determined to never ride the same bike twice."
But, I do notice a big difference in the quality and performance of modern 10-speed and I am anxious to try 11-speed. I'm still rocking friction-shifting 9-speed Shimano XT Rapid-Rise on my everyday commuter, but the new stuff looks really fun.
10-13-16, 01:16 PM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,247
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
16 Posts
Chain durability has more to do with how you ride and where you ride than anything else...plain and simple.
I use to have a 7 speed setup when I got my first road bike back in the early 90s. I rode 15,000 miles on it on the original chain, cassette, and chainrings. Never thought a thing about it. Granted I was living in NW Ohio at the time which is very flat.
I moved up here to hilly NH and after putting 1500-1800 miles on the bike in the first back out riding again I found come the second spring that I had to replace to the chain. Granted I didn't know enough at the time or I probably would have replaced everything. All of a sudden I started going through chains every 1500 miles. It was incredible. I couldn't understand at all why I was getting such crappy performance out of a chain. I was blaming Shimano and t he chain makers for focusing on profit instead of quality. I continued this belief until my third bike trip back in 2015. Then I come to realize that the real wear and tear was coming from the hills of NH and not crappy chains.
Now I realize especially after this year since I started riding at 90 rpm more often and at 70-72 rpm less often that the chain wear has dropped dramatically. I haven't replaced the chain all summer thanks to riding smarter.
If you want to get the best chain wear start riding at a higher rpm and do it in the flatlands. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I was living back in NW Ohio again if I could get 15,000 miles or more on a chain without trying. Here in NH 3000 miles is probably about the limit unless I just ride the flattest roads I can find which isn't really that feasible.
I use to have a 7 speed setup when I got my first road bike back in the early 90s. I rode 15,000 miles on it on the original chain, cassette, and chainrings. Never thought a thing about it. Granted I was living in NW Ohio at the time which is very flat.
I moved up here to hilly NH and after putting 1500-1800 miles on the bike in the first back out riding again I found come the second spring that I had to replace to the chain. Granted I didn't know enough at the time or I probably would have replaced everything. All of a sudden I started going through chains every 1500 miles. It was incredible. I couldn't understand at all why I was getting such crappy performance out of a chain. I was blaming Shimano and t he chain makers for focusing on profit instead of quality. I continued this belief until my third bike trip back in 2015. Then I come to realize that the real wear and tear was coming from the hills of NH and not crappy chains.
Now I realize especially after this year since I started riding at 90 rpm more often and at 70-72 rpm less often that the chain wear has dropped dramatically. I haven't replaced the chain all summer thanks to riding smarter.
If you want to get the best chain wear start riding at a higher rpm and do it in the flatlands. I wouldn't be at all surprised if I was living back in NW Ohio again if I could get 15,000 miles or more on a chain without trying. Here in NH 3000 miles is probably about the limit unless I just ride the flattest roads I can find which isn't really that feasible.
10-13-16, 05:36 PM
#35
Senior Member
I really can't relate to the whole breaking chains thing. As I mentioned in my entire life of riding bikes and motorcycles, I have never had a chain break. I only know of one friend who says he had a chain break decades ago, and I really do think that it's a rare occurance. I also wonder what factors were the cause of breaks, maintenance, hard shifting, incidents that happen to the bike? Have no idea but am going simply from all my years of riding and really never having had an issue, but then have never really had situations hard on a chain like them getting caught between chainrings or jammed in places when really cranking.
10-13-16, 06:33 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,023
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I really can't relate to the whole breaking chains thing. As I mentioned in my entire life of riding bikes and motorcycles, I have never had a chain break. I only know of one friend who says he had a chain break decades ago, and I really do think that it's a rare occurance. I also wonder what factors were the cause of breaks, maintenance, hard shifting, incidents that happen to the bike? Have no idea but am going simply from all my years of riding and really never having had an issue, but then have never really had situations hard on a chain like them getting caught between chainrings or jammed in places when really cranking.
10-13-16, 08:12 PM
#37
Senior Member
In my case, as I mentioned, the fact that I have skinny old legs that prefer spinning certainly is a factor, not a heck of a lot of torque.
With your example, did it have a quick link, I imagine user error with those can be a possible cause, and going back to partially pushing out pins and pushing them back in always had a slight risk of being ham fisted during that process.
With your example, did it have a quick link, I imagine user error with those can be a possible cause, and going back to partially pushing out pins and pushing them back in always had a slight risk of being ham fisted during that process.
10-13-16, 08:58 PM
#38
Firm but gentle
chains don't brake on their own
Clumsy shifting and bad shifting habbits break them. Poorly re-joined connections are a factor too. I have been riding derailleur equiped bikes quite a bit since 1974 and never broken a chain. My girlfriend broke a Sedis 7 speed chain in 6 months of riding in the early '90s. No, she was not a big girl.
10-14-16, 12:43 AM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,150
Bikes: 2013 Surly Disc Trucker, 2004 Novara Randonee , old fixie , etc
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 49 Times
in
43 Posts
Never broke a chain (lightweight rider). Recently bought the Park chain stretch tool & was a bit surprised that SRAM 9-sp chain was done after 6,000 km. Good to know that 10/11 speed chains are strong since 10-sp is the trend for touring bikes ie Surly Disc Trucker anyway. Time for Surly to create a Rohloff/Gates Disc Trucker. Frequent double shifts esp w/bar-ends are a hassle vs easy straight IGH shifts. Belt lasts 3-4X longer than a chain w/near-zero maintenance.
10-14-16, 02:09 AM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: S/W U.S.
Posts: 806
Bikes: 2016 Novara - Safari
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 384 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'll take a longer life of my chain-rings over a bit longer life of the chain. I'll stick with my 9 for now.
10-14-16, 04:13 AM
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,023
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
In my case, as I mentioned, the fact that I have skinny old legs that prefer spinning certainly is a factor, not a heck of a lot of torque.
With your example, did it have a quick link, I imagine user error with those can be a possible cause, and going back to partially pushing out pins and pushing them back in always had a slight risk of being ham fisted during that process.
With your example, did it have a quick link, I imagine user error with those can be a possible cause, and going back to partially pushing out pins and pushing them back in always had a slight risk of being ham fisted during that process.
Last edited by manapua_man; 10-14-16 at 04:16 AM.
10-14-16, 04:33 AM
#43
Senior Member
It had a quick link, but that wasn't where it broke- in fact that was the first thing I checked. I really doubt it was user error on that one. This was a couple years ago, but I don't recall putting a whole lot of force on the thing since I was just cruising around a parking lot when it happened.
10-14-16, 04:38 AM
#44
Senior Member
There certainly are some people who have terrible shifting habits and are woefully mechanically unsympathetic at times and put a lot of stress on chains with awkward full strength shifts.
We have all seen and heard this.
We have all seen and heard this.
10-14-16, 06:14 AM
#45
Senior Member
i had a couple bad hg-93's from a possibly counterfeit batch.
the pins were too narrow perhaps, or maybe the shoulders on
these 9-speed chains were too weak.
one chain just fell off during stress-free ride on flat pavement
when a side-plate popped off. that was after about 250km,
all easy rides to the beach and back.
replacement chain from same order (assume same batch) was
watched more carefully......after less than 100km noticed
the shoulder of one rivet had popped off and the side-plate
was coming loose.
the pins were too narrow perhaps, or maybe the shoulders on
these 9-speed chains were too weak.
one chain just fell off during stress-free ride on flat pavement
when a side-plate popped off. that was after about 250km,
all easy rides to the beach and back.
replacement chain from same order (assume same batch) was
watched more carefully......after less than 100km noticed
the shoulder of one rivet had popped off and the side-plate
was coming loose.
10-14-16, 11:24 AM
#46
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,923
Bikes: Nature Boy 853 Disc, Pugsley SS
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 251 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
6 Posts
I like my Surly crankset because of the wide availability of stainless steel chainrings. They even make a Narrow-Wide in steel. WolfTooth makes a bunch of these as well.
10-14-16, 01:33 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,199
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3459 Post(s)
Liked 1,465 Times
in
1,143 Posts
But if the chain checker says it still is good, it is. No need to pull then chain off to check then.
Some people say that they can get a good measurement with a 12 or 18 inch ruler which is great if they can because you can get good stainless steel rulers that are that length. But I prefer a really long ruler for more precision. When I have 3/8 inches of elongation in 47 inches of chain, that is when I discard it.
10-14-16, 03:25 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: S/W U.S.
Posts: 806
Bikes: 2016 Novara - Safari
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 384 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
10-14-16, 03:46 PM
#50
Banned
Surly Stainless steel chainrings are like the Chain rings used to be, No shift pins or ramps..
You let the chain move on and off the Sprocket without forcing it ,,
still use the steel chainrings on my touring Bike, I got in the 80's , CP sugino .
(I just don't ride that Tour Bike daily) Have a SS Surly 38-110 on my R'off Koga.
They're flat, so reversible to further extend the wear life by flipping them over.
Full Bushing chain wear life is much longer than the bushingless chain it replaced..
'/,
You let the chain move on and off the Sprocket without forcing it ,,
still use the steel chainrings on my touring Bike, I got in the 80's , CP sugino .
(I just don't ride that Tour Bike daily) Have a SS Surly 38-110 on my R'off Koga.
They're flat, so reversible to further extend the wear life by flipping them over.
Full Bushing chain wear life is much longer than the bushingless chain it replaced..
'/,
Last edited by fietsbob; 11-01-16 at 09:49 AM.