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Old 10-14-16, 04:08 PM   #76
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Non Touring Thread starter Squeeze box likes carbon bikes Of course the Pros have a trailer ful of them
so they may not be the same bike the next day's start ..

Race Sponsorship Falls under the Markting sector of the Bike company developer's Budgets ..
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Old 10-14-16, 04:08 PM   #77
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Stuff like that is out there inc. carbon triples.
Link me a Shimano 5arm triple 110/74 BCD crank.
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Old 10-14-16, 08:07 PM   #78
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The new builds will trend away from steel. GHG regs will make steel harder to get , and better more environmentally friendly materials will take over, but you are right steel will linger on in older bikes.
I think I heard that when Aluminum was first used in frames. Then I heard it again with Titanium and Carbon. Has not happened yet. And custom frame builders will never deviate from steel.

Not sure what GHG regs is. Care to explain what that is and why it will suddenly cause the bicycle world to change away from steel?

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Link me a Shimano 5arm triple 110/74 BCD crank.
Why the insistence on Shimano?

I can understand the desire for a 110 mm BCD, but other than that I am quite happy with my Campy road triple cranks.
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Old 10-14-16, 08:18 PM   #79
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I am sure that more people will shift to bike packing gear, but I am quite confident that the median will continue to be a bike with racks and panniers....
we're really talking two completely different styles of touring here.
two different mindsets and approaches to a similar activity.

the one is a hardcore, ninja "adventure" to cover as much as possible in the shortest span competition.
the other is a relaxed vacationing, slow down and smell the roses style of travel.

at least that's the way i see it, never having done the first.
i can see the attraction of ninja touring.....for short periods.
might be fun for a week or ten days, but for longer rides?
the spartan lifestyle - sleeping in a hefty garbage bag, cooking
ramen over a soda can stove - is gonna get old pretty quick.
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Old 10-14-16, 08:34 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
we're really talking two completely different styles of touring here.
two different mindsets and approaches to a similar activity.

the one is a hardcore, ninja "adventure" to cover as much as possible in the shortest span competition.
the other is a relaxed vacationing, slow down and smell the roses style of travel.

at least that's the way i see it, never having done the first.
i can see the attraction of ninja touring.....for short periods.
might be fun for a week or ten days, but for longer rides?
the spartan lifestyle - sleeping in a hefty garbage bag, cooking
ramen over a soda can stove - is gonna get old pretty quick.
Yes!
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Old 10-14-16, 09:12 PM   #81
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I think I heard that when Aluminum was first used in frames. Then I heard it again with Titanium and Carbon. Has not happened yet. And custom frame builders will never deviate from steel.

Not sure what GHG regs is. Care to explain what that is and why it will suddenly cause the bicycle world to change away from steel?


Greenhouse gas regulations. Under the Paris Climate convention signatories have pledged to significantly reduce GHG emissions, much lower than currently. Steelmaking is an energy intensive activity. Coking coal is used to make steel from iron ore and limestone.Coal is currently being phased out because it is so GHG intensive. You can't make steel with solar power.

But we don't need steel to make good bicycles. The best ones today aren't steel anyway and newer carbon neutral materials are being developed, like Bamboo. Why is a high end bike manufacturer like Calfee going to bamboo?

Steel has hung on too long, but now its days are numbered.
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Old 10-14-16, 09:21 PM   #82
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we're really talking two completely different styles of touring here.
two different mindsets and approaches to a similar activity.

the one is a hardcore, ninja "adventure" to cover as much as possible in the shortest span competition.
the other is a relaxed vacationing, slow down and smell the roses style of travel.

at least that's the way i see it, never having done the first.
i can see the attraction of ninja touring.....for short periods.
might be fun for a week or ten days, but for longer rides?
the spartan lifestyle - sleeping in a hefty garbage bag, cooking
ramen over a soda can stove - is gonna get old pretty quick.
As bikes and bikepacking gear get lighter and more efficient, the number of people using old fashioned racks and pannier will dwindle. Younger people are into bikepacking not rack and pannier touring. Ortlieb is going into bike packing gear big time.

Right now there are two camps, but one is old and diminishing and one is young and growing.

As the older crowd quit touring and go to the rest home, they are being replaced by bike packers. In 20 years the only place you will see a tubus rack will be in a museum.
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Old 10-14-16, 09:47 PM   #83
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As bikes and bikepacking gear get lighter and more efficient, the number of people using old fashioned racks and pannier will dwindle. Younger people are into bikepacking not rack and pannier touring. Ortlieb is going into bike packing gear big time.

Right now there are two camps, but one is old and diminishing and one is young and growing.

As the older crowd quit touring and go to the rest home, they are being replaced by bike packers. In 20 years the only place you will see a tubus rack will be in a museum.

"It is what you learn after you know it all that counts."

John Wooden UCLA BB Coach

Some of us who have been touring for awhile remember when "bikepacking" was what you did because there was a lack of touring bike options and touring gear in general; you used what you had. It is not anything that is really new!

Circa early 1970s. Peugeot PX10, the same bike I raced on, except clinchers instead of sewups, with 20 lb. of gear. This trip was 1100 miles in 11 days.

BTW- those are homemade panniers with a total capacity of 1700 cu. in, 27 L.



My wife and I riding lightweight road bikes with 20 lb. of gear in custom made panniers,including our camping gear. For pavement, today's bikepacking gear is not nearly as convenient as a rack and panniers. This was at least 15 years ago.


Last edited by Doug64; 10-14-16 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 10-14-16, 10:26 PM   #84
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Why is a high end bike manufacturer like Calfee going to bamboo?
Because a few people really like how a quality bamboo bike looks, and the end result should function and ride basically just fine. Same reason Renovo is a thing with hardwood.

Bamboo bikes as they exist right now could never become a very significant fraction of the high-end market. Weight is the really obvious limitation; according to Calfee's own website, their bamboo frames are 6-7 pounds. Even a heavy touring frame like an LHT significantly undercuts that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
As bikes and bikepacking gear get lighter and more efficient, the number of people using old fashioned racks and pannier will dwindle. Younger people are into bikepacking not rack and pannier touring. Ortlieb is going into bike packing gear big time.

Right now there are two camps, but one is old and diminishing and one is young and growing.

As the older crowd quit touring and go to the rest home, they are being replaced by bike packers. In 20 years the only place you will see a tubus rack will be in a museum.
Not all trends trajectorize forever at linear rates. While going purely with bikepacking bags has obvious benefits, the capacity limitations make me extremely skeptical of the idea that racks will actually die off.
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Old 10-14-16, 11:08 PM   #85
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....there are two camps, but one is old and diminishing and one is young and growing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
....As the older crowd quit touring and go to the rest home, they are being replaced by bike packers. In 20 years the only place you will see a tubus rack will be in a museum.
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....Steel has hung on too long, but now its days are numbered.
interesting take on the steel is inferior trollism.
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Old 10-14-16, 11:26 PM   #86
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Greenhouse gas regulations. Under the Paris Climate convention signatories have pledged to significantly reduce GHG emissions, much lower than currently. Steelmaking is an energy intensive activity. Coking coal is used to make steel from iron ore and limestone.Coal is currently being phased out because it is so GHG intensive. You can't make steel with solar power.

But we don't need steel to make good bicycles. The best ones today aren't steel anyway and newer carbon neutral materials are being developed, like Bamboo. Why is a high end bike manufacturer like Calfee going to bamboo?

Steel has hung on too long, but now its days are numbered.
Are you really wanting focusing your attention on bicycle manufacturing practices? Really?
In the scheme of things what a bicycle is made out of will not make any measurable difference.

Move on....
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Old 10-14-16, 11:37 PM   #87
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interesting take on the steel is inferior trollism.
I totally admit I am trying to get a reaction from the "Steel is Real" crowd, but you guys are on the wrong side of history. We are going to see more transformative change in the next few years than in the last century. Cycling is just a microcosm of society, but the changes we are seeing is reflective of what is going on in the bigger picture.

It might be wrenching, it might be uncomfortable but change is good.

Good bye to panniers, good bye to steel, hello to vast number s of people using renewable technology to experience the planet on two wheels.

It will be good, if you are not a neo luddite.
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Old 10-14-16, 11:42 PM   #88
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I don't think it has to be one or the other.

There are times when I want a traditional loaded touring set up, like a trip I took with my son and brother. No speed goals, limited daily mileage, having fun and visiting being the aim.

There are other times when I want to get myself from A to B faster because time is the one limiting factor I have going against me and so need to go lighter. Maybe going faster is the challenge I'm after. So I seek alternatives. I'm not entirely one way or the other.

This last trip I decided to try some bikepacking gear and bought a frame bag and a handlebar roll. Absolutely loved the frame bag and don't see myself touring without one again. Was ambivalent about the bar roll. It carried stuff fine but I thought a traditional handle bar bag would be just as, or more, useful. As it is I am now experimenting with it mounted on the rear like a carradice bag in conjunction with a single small dry sack as a trunk bag, traditional handle bar bag and a frame bag to create a light weight summer rig. Just experimenting and having fun trying new concepts.

I'll do a tour at least that way to see but at the same time if my family wants to join me for a week in the Gulf Islands or on the KVR I'll throw my panniers on and haul all the toys too. One benefit to being able to go fully loaded is being able to carry the big stuff like tent and cookset so they can travel lighter. My wife could join me and all she would have to carry is her personal clothes/items and sleeping bag.

I would secretly fill my sons panniers with rocks however. That makes for great evening entertainment.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 10-14-16 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 10-14-16, 11:51 PM   #89
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I totally admit I am trying to get a reaction from the "Steel is Real" crowd...

It will be good, if you are not a neo luddite.
ok. you win. i'm doing it wrong.

i promise to sell my oldfangled touring bike and get modern.

you're right, screw this bike carp, i'm gettin' one of these!

Dutchstar by Newmar not Thor Fleetwood Diesel motorhome Class A RV camper Bus | eBay

it's eco friendly! gots bamboo cupholders!
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Old 10-14-16, 11:57 PM   #90
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ok. you win. i'm doing it wrong.

i promise to sell my oldfangled touring bike and get modern.

you're right, screw this bike carp, i'm gettin' one of these!

Dutchstar by Newmar not Thor Fleetwood Diesel motorhome Class A RV camper Bus | eBay

it's eco friendly! gots bamboo cupholders!
Bloater homes are really on the wrong side of history. In ten years you'll be able to buy it for $1000 because you wont be able to afford the diesel to run it.

Last edited by willibrord; 10-15-16 at 12:02 AM. Reason: speling
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Old 10-15-16, 12:01 AM   #91
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ok. you win. i'm doing it wrong.

i promise to sell my oldfangled touring bike and get modern.

you're right, screw this bike carp, i'm gettin' one of these!

Dutchstar by Newmar not Thor Fleetwood Diesel motorhome Class A RV camper Bus | eBay

it's eco friendly! gots bamboo cupholders!
I'd prefer something more along these lines.

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Old 10-15-16, 03:25 AM   #92
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Link me a Shimano 5arm triple 110/74 BCD crank.
The point I tried to make is there are other compact road triples and MTB triples in that range and above.
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Old 10-15-16, 03:38 AM   #93
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interesting take on the steel is inferior trollism.
Interesting take on the superiority of steel trollism.
Ti is still around. Carbon has proved itself as the superior material. It just costs too much.
We'll see what the cheaper is better tourers have to say when carbon and steel is the same price.

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Old 10-15-16, 03:57 AM   #94
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I totally admit I am trying to get a reaction from the "Steel is Real" crowd, but you guys are on the wrong side of history. We are going to see more transformative change in the next few years than in the last century. Cycling is just a microcosm of society, but the changes we are seeing is reflective of what is going on in the bigger picture.

It might be wrenching, it might be uncomfortable but change is good.

Good bye to panniers, good bye to steel, hello to vast number s of people using renewable technology to experience the planet on two wheels.

It will be good, if you are not a neo luddite.
Have you toured? It seems like you haven't. 'Cause the thing is that when you start meeting people who tour you also start to see the realities of those people and the factors which have put them on to the road of touring. Most people start out with their touring lives with their commuter or utility everyday bikes. The bikes come with racks and they get the cheapest panniers available and it develops from there.

Sure you can try to commute with frame bags but uhh... yeah. That in itself already says why frame bags will likely never be as popular as panniers. They're not handy and a lot of the times they straight out suck. I'll be building my long distance bike soon and instead of frame bags I'll use ultralight TI racks and dry bags. I'm willing to bet I'll get a better volume to weight ratio.

Where framebags do shine however is bikepacking on technical trails. That's however in the very expensive high end of touring spectrum as are road frame bag users. A lot of tourists are either, poor, thrifty or cheap so you can imagine that they may not be too thrilled to buy 7 or 8 expensive bags instead of one or two much cheaper double sets (which are also waterproof) with two to four times the volume. For the average person that doesn't add up.

And you do realize that you can't take metal or even steel out of bicycles? Well, maybe but it won't be very tourable and it'll be that 15k pure carbon ceramic bearing road bike squeeze has been drooling over.
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Old 10-15-16, 04:18 AM   #95
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Interesting take on the superiority of steel trollism.
Ti is still around. Carbon has proved itself as the superior material. It just costs to much.
We'll see what the cheaper is better tourers have to say when carbon and steel is the same price.
Well, some things carbon is better at, some things not so much.
I'd hate to use carbon bars or seatpost on tour as I'd need to carry a torque wrench and carbon paste with me. Not very ultralight if you ask me.
Carbon rims could be neat. Carbon spokes? No effing way.
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Old 10-15-16, 04:52 AM   #96
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Interesting take on the superiority of steel trollism.
Ti is still around. Carbon has proved itself as the superior material. It just costs to much.
We'll see what the cheaper is better tourers have to say when carbon and steel is the same price.
yes, i agree, cabron must have some advantages in certain situations.
but other than a very slight weight reduction mass-wise, and a very
large weight reduction, bank balance-wise, i don't see the superiority
in a touring environment.

please elucidate. given your vast touring experience on cabron and tee-I and
aluminium, and of course even lowly steel....what exactly is it about cabron
that makes it such a tremendous advancement in touring technology.

forget what the knowledgable folks on whiteblaze.com are saying.....in your personal experience.
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Old 10-15-16, 06:30 AM   #97
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we're really talking two completely different styles of touring here.
two different mindsets and approaches to a similar activity.

the one is a hardcore, ninja "adventure" to cover as much as possible in the shortest span competition.
the other is a relaxed vacationing, slow down and smell the roses style of travel.

at least that's the way i see it, never having done the first.
i can see the attraction of ninja touring.....for short periods.
might be fun for a week or ten days, but for longer rides?
the spartan lifestyle - sleeping in a hefty garbage bag, cooking
ramen over a soda can stove - is gonna get old pretty quick.
Agree, that was pretty much my point too but you were more eloquent than I was.

But where you think it might be fun to try the super minimalist experience for a week or ten days, I would find that a bit old after about four days.

On my last tour I carried three water bottles, one liter each. I met some bike packers, I commented to one that I could not see how he got by with only one small water bottle, he said he had lost his other bottle. But still two small bottles (before he lost one) was only a bit over a liter. There were a couple days where I drank every drop of the three liters that I had.

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Old 10-15-16, 07:35 AM   #98
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I've never bought a dedicated touring bike either for paved road touring or for fire/logging/mining rtoads touring I do. My current dedicated road touring bicycle is a 1980s era MIELE UNO SL that I had a professional frame builder add cantilever brake studs, cantilever brake stop bridge, rear rack seatstay bosses ans an under the downtube pair of water bottle mounts for less than $70.00 including the partss. When the guy found out that I was a fair distance from me he offered to do the job right then if I could wait an hour. Could that have been done with aluminium or carbon fibre?

Something I've noticed is that bicycle touring gear in general is getting expensive and some of it is geting to be very hard or impossible to find these days. PAnniers are so expensive now that my next sets will be home made ones. Then I'll have the exact features and pocket izes I want.

MEC (mountain Equipment Co-op) used to carry a Blackburn clone front low-rider rack for $17.70 but no longer carry it and instead carry a $50.00+ rack that in some ways is inferior. I've noticed that MEC dropped a lot of the good but inexpensive stuff they used to carry in many departments but especially in the bicycling touring department.

When I tour in Northern Ontario (Canada) I use a MTB converted to drop bars and I use racks and panniers on it. I can take side trips or even explore a completely different route that originally planned. Thus I often see things that I'd never see otherwise. To me touring and exploring go hand in hand.

The thing is, people have different desires or outlooks as to what constitutes touring. Therefore there bicycle needs and their equipment needs vary a great deal too. Some people want to be ableto get a relatively inexpensive bicycle, rack(s) and panniers then get an inexpensive tent and sleeping bag, grab some food and utensils from their kitchen and then go ona tour of a weeek or so. Otheres want the absolute latest greatest and lightest everything before they set out. the important thing and the thing common to both groups is that they actually do get out and tour and they enjoy it.

Cheers
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Old 10-15-16, 09:27 AM   #99
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yes, i agree, cabron must have some advantages in certain situations.
but other than a very slight weight reduction mass-wise, and a very
large weight reduction, bank balance-wise, i don't see the superiority
in a touring environment.

please elucidate. given your vast touring experience on cabron and tee-I and
aluminium, and of course even lowly steel....what exactly is it about cabron
that makes it such a tremendous advancement in touring technology.

forget what the knowledgable folks on whiteblaze.com are saying.....in your personal experience.
Is it possible for you to post without being insulting?
It doesn't sound like you have any experience on anything but steel. So where's your personal experience?
Carbon is stronger, more durable, and lighter than other materials. It also provides a more resilient ride without getting sloppy about it. And unfortunately more expensive. Certainly a viable material for touring. It's not just about wt.
The folks at White blaze know a lot about UL camping. Some bicycle tourists could stand to learn a lot about lighter camping gear and lightening up.
You sir! Could stand to learn a lot about social skills and stop attacking everyone that happens to disagree with you.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:53 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willibrord View Post
I totally admit I am trying to get a reaction from the "Steel is Real" crowd, but you guys are on the wrong side of history. We are going to see more transformative change in the next few years than in the last century. Cycling is just a microcosm of society, but the changes we are seeing is reflective of what is going on in the bigger picture.

It might be wrenching, it might be uncomfortable but change is good.

Good bye to panniers, good bye to steel, hello to vast number s of people using renewable technology to experience the planet on two wheels.

It will be good, if you are not a neo luddite.
So you are intentionally flaming. Your predictions are off on implementation date.
And your topic of energy use by the cycling industry went from potentially interesting to just inaccurate and useless due to the hostile nature of your posts.
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