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Old 03-17-17, 02:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^

Big guys need 29ers. Period. Get yourself a Surly Ogre or a Salsa Fargo. Done.
Maybe not the Ogre. Isn't that a flat bar bike? He'd be suffering on those 100 mile days. That REI bike looks nice to me, especially for the $.
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Old 03-17-17, 02:33 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Mr IGH View Post
Yup, new tubeless ready rims are a better design than the old hook bead clincher rims such as Mavic. A good example is the Mavic 319 vs a SunRingle Helix27. The SR rim is 80 gms lighter but even with 32 spokes it's a stronger wheel than a Mavic 319 with 36 spokes. TR rims take the extra material in the bead and move it to the spoke track, that's why TR rims are stronger and lighter without any cost adder. Some are determined to ignore new wheel developments of the last 20 years, that's their loss....
How do you guys know all this stuff? Lol, I study study study bikes night and day, and I've been a student of bicycle mechanics since I was a kid. But this kind of stuff I feel like a complete noob.
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Old 03-17-17, 02:40 PM   #28
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Most of the bikes you are looking at have bar end shifters. These are a functional and economical choice. Some posters here are afraid of them but that is unfounded. They are easy to operate and the friction front will give you the option of using whatever crank you want, if your needs change in the future.
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Old 03-17-17, 02:53 PM   #29
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TR rims take the extra material in the bead and move it to the spoke track, that's why TR rims are stronger and lighter
I'm not sure this is exactly the case. TR means "tubeless ready" AFAIK, not tubeless only. They still have enough material at the bead for a traditional tire with tube, same as always.
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Old 03-17-17, 03:31 PM   #30
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How do you guys know all this stuff? Lol, I study study study bikes night and day, and I've been a student of bicycle mechanics since I was a kid. But this kind of stuff I feel like a complete noob.
Sometimes people go a little too far down the rabbit hole and lose sight of the forest for the trees.

Any decent quality 36h wheelset will do for the touring the OP is suggesting as will 20 - 700c rims and everything in between. Tubes or tubeless.

There is ignoring new development and there is recognizing fads as fads. People of all sizes seem to have been able to tour with basic bicycle technology for a century so far without too much complaint.
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Old 03-17-17, 04:33 PM   #31
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I can say that I can surely feel a difference between the Arc 24's and A319's on my two bikes, maybe I'm drinking the cool aid but I really like the ride I get from wider tires and rims.

Much of the old vs new makes me remember my mechanic father's line when I wanted to restore an old Chevelle, part of his schtick to get me to buy a Japanese car was, "they don't make them like they used to, and that's a good thing!" (to be honest, he used that line a lot) I didn't listen and got the 1969 Chevelle that was pretty much a POS that required constant attention and he bought the used 1985 RX7 he was trying to convince me to buy, (I honestly believe he bought it as a lesson), and it had over 200k relatively trouble free miles on it and the Chevelle was a faded memory when he got rid of it, in hind sight I wish I would have bought the Mazda...
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Old 03-17-17, 04:38 PM   #32
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How do you guys know all this stuff? Lol, I study study study bikes night and day, and I've been a student of bicycle mechanics since I was a kid. But this kind of stuff I feel like a complete noob.
Sometimes people just make stuff up. I can find nothing that states that the way the tire interacts with the rim is for the Helix is any different from a "normal" rim. The Helix rim is "tubeless ready" but can be used with a regular tire and tube.

Even if Ringle' shaved a few grams from the bead bed and added it to the spoke track, a few grams of aluminum isn't going to make that much difference in terms of strength. The difference between a Helix 27 700C rim and a Mavic A319 is only 73g. That's not much weight.

Aluminum is just too soft for an extra couple of grams to make a huge difference. And, even if it did make that big of a difference, it would only make a difference in the spoke tension. Of course going to a thicker headed spoke would allow you to use a lower tension with more strength anyway.

And, again, the rim doesn't do much for strength of a wheel anyway. Look at the way that a spoke interacts with the rim. It floats in the rim. The nipple doesn't act like a nut and bolt. The rim can slide up and down on the nipple so what is the rim doing that adds strength? You could take the strongest rim material imaginable...steel...and build a wheel that would wobble more than an Irishman tonight at midnight. Or you could take a "weak" lightweight aluminum rim and build something that will take 200 lbs of rider pounding it off-road for 10 years. I've done latter. Never saw a reason to do the former, except as a thought experiment.
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Old 03-17-17, 04:45 PM   #33
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this year I am doing a couple of multi day rides 350 miles/ 4 days - and 600 miles / 6 days. For now I am equipping my Giant Defy 1 with a back rack and bags. I plan on camping each night with a small tent, and travel rather minimally. This will likely be a later this year purchase, but I tend to over research. At 6'4" 250lbs I have a hard time finding any to ride, I have found a 720 and a Sutra that I stood over which were too small. I have rode none of these.

If you have experience with any of these I want to hear from you,

The question:
If all three of these bikes are the same money which one do you prefer and why?

Trek 720
Surly Long Haul Trucker
Kona Sutra

Thanks in advance.
All the other yapping aside, get the LHT. Solid touring bike. You shouldn't have to replace anything for quite a while. The wheels aren't anything to write home about but they also aren't dogs. They will serve for lots of miles.

The rest of the build is solid if a bit old schoolish.
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Old 03-17-17, 05:57 PM   #34
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^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^

Big guys need 29ers. Period. Get yourself a Surly Ogre or a Salsa Fargo. Done.
Wat

As a big guy, this is completely unfounded. I have 35mm road tures on my touring bike. Its comfortable, im comfotrable, all is great in life. I put about 1400mi on it last year and the road wheelset (130 rear hub plus road tires) is waiting to do it all over again this year.

A 29er is just a 700c rim thats wider than typical road rims. I wouldnt want anything wider than a 38mm tire for road touring and that will fit just fine in any number of current trend wide 23mm outer diameter 700c rims.

A surly ogre for riding 100mi each day for a week straight on the road?!?! Thats taking tennis racquet to a ping pong match.
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Old 03-17-17, 06:53 PM   #35
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I am 295 and have been up to 330 I have done over nighters and day trips with lots of gear on a long haul trucker for several years and it is still going strong. I have hauled 2 cases of poweraide home on it before ($ .18 a liter 2 case limit I had rode to the store for bread)
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Old 03-17-17, 07:48 PM   #36
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Well call me old fashioned but I would rather have a 69 Chevelle than an 85 Mazda today.

I dont think, once one is loaded with the weight the OP is talking about, that you could tell the difference between one rim and the other. It's just not something that translates into detectable "feel" like that in those conditions.
Tires do though, but you can put all sorts of rubber on all sorts of wheels.

I ride 1.75 Marathons on my converted 26" mtb and they are way fat enough to absorb the road vibe. No need for balloon tires and aggressive off road geometry for loaded road touring.

However, you can tour on off road or road bikes, thin or fat tires, which is the jist of my point: that the bike isn't really important enough to be specific.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 03-17-17 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 03-17-17, 08:52 PM   #37
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Other things you may want to think about when looking for a bike:

A lot of the newer "touring" bikes: Vaya, AWOL, Marrakesh come with per-cut steerer tubes. This really limits the amount of upward adjustment, placing the seat higher than the saddle. The longer your legs are in proportion to your torso the more it will exacerbate the seat height/ bar height issues. The LHT is the only production bike that I am aware of that comes with an uncut steerer tube. Think about where you want your seat height in relation to your bar height. Fit is everything!

Also many of the bikes discussed above have frames with "compact" geometries. Again long legs often mean that there is a lot of seatpost exposed above the seat tube/top tube interface. I believe (no proof) that the long exposed seatpost acts like a lever, and puts more strain on the top end of the seat tube. Whether this is significant or not, I do not know. It seems that this would not be an issue on frames with traditional geometry.

Last edited by Doug64; 03-17-17 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 03-17-17, 09:44 PM   #38
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100miles a day for 6 days with minimally gear, sounds like a Specialized Sequoia
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...a-elite/116169
With bikepacking bags would done the job for him!
Great allround bike when not touring, that is also importen i think.
Handlebar bag, frame bag, and a arkel seatpacker and his ready to go
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Old 03-18-17, 03:07 AM   #39
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rperkins146, Of the bikes you listed, the LHT. Of the bikes suggested, the REI.

I don't mind having a bike that is over-built for the load I'm now usually carrying or for even riding unloaded. At your weight you're pretty close to what many tourist's bikes would weigh fully loaded, before you add any gear.

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Old 03-18-17, 03:52 AM   #40
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I had an LHT which I liked and it handled me (6 feet tall, 220) and my 30 lbs of gear well. I did not like the handling. I used 40mm or so tires and they were alright but not very versatile. Since I upgraded the frame to a Rivendell Hunqapillar, the the handling is vastly improved and I am using 50mm Big Ben tires. It's a much better ride and a lot more fun to use when I am not traveling. I think I would start with a Surly Ogre or Salsa Fargo if I couldn't spend the extra on the Riv frame. The Riv is worth it, but they are pricey in comparison and the extra versatility the larger tires provide will definitely improve your experience.



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Old 03-18-17, 04:03 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Wat

As a big guy, this is completely unfounded. I have 35mm road tures on my touring bike. Its comfortable, im comfotrable, all is great in life. I put about 1400mi on it last year and the road wheelset (130 rear hub plus road tires) is waiting to do it all over again this year.

A 29er is just a 700c rim thats wider than typical road rims. I wouldnt want anything wider than a 38mm tire for road touring and that will fit just fine in any number of current trend wide 23mm outer diameter 700c rims.

A surly ogre for riding 100mi each day for a week straight on the road?!?! Thats taking tennis racquet to a ping pong match.
I would've made the same argument until I tried it. Although I wouldn't tour at 100 mile per day on anything, the sixty to eighty I do cover are much easier and more pleasant since moving up to 50mm tires.



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Old 03-18-17, 04:11 AM   #42
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LHT with 700 x 28 tires good to go for 100 mile days.
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Old 03-18-17, 04:23 AM   #43
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Well call me old fashioned but I would rather have a 69 Chevelle than an 85 Mazda today.
I would as well but if I needed a daily driver and funds were tight I'd have to take the Mazda. I'm now fortunate enough to have disposable income, something that sure wasn't the case when i was in my 20's and bought the Chevelle, it sure looked cool, I just didn't fully understand my needs at the time.

At this point my argument would be that the bike needs to be comfortable, ride well and have robust wheels. I believe the op stated "light loads" so for that a full on tourer is overkill as there are lots more nimble options that will accomplish what he wants while being more fun to ride in other situations. I also agree with the uncut steerer tube but that doesn't seem to be an option unless buying a frameset.
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Old 03-18-17, 06:24 AM   #44
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I should have also said, I am a paved road only tourer. I don't see myself riding trails anymore.
Depending on what your local shops stock, I get to Winnipeg often. The Marin Four corners is my favorite drop bar choice, steel like the Trek 520 but with Brifters (my preference)

http://www.marinbikes.com/us/bikes/d...orners#image-2

Hope this helps.

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Old 03-18-17, 06:53 AM   #45
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thank you all for the input so far. I am new to the "touring" aspect of cycling so I appreciate it, truly. As of this moment I am waffling between the LHT and the REI bikes, who knows what the next few moments will bring. For me the minimalist, road only, 80 miles max a day seems more realistic (I need to remember just because I can do 100+ on a road bike this will definitely be different, cyclist.... these seem like a good starting point.
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Old 03-18-17, 07:46 AM   #46
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I'm not sure this is exactly the case. TR means "tubeless ready" AFAIK, not tubeless only. They still have enough material at the bead for a traditional tire with tube, same as always.
I never implied "tubeless ready" means "tubeless only". It's a fact that TR rims can take standard clincher tyres as well as tubeless. The strength advantage is in the design change. It doesn't cost any extra $$ to make the stronger TR rims compared to the older chincher rims, both are made by extruding.

I first noticed the difference when I replaced my Mavic 319 rims to Stans Flow EX. Same ERD, 80 grams lighter and much more lateral strength. I wondered what could be the reason, a simple examination gave me the answer.

Looking at specs on-line isn't a replacement for actual experience. It only takes a single wheel build to understand the difference....

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Old 03-18-17, 07:52 AM   #47
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...There is ignoring new development and there is recognizing fads as fads. People of all sizes seem to have been able to tour with basic bicycle technology for a century so far without too much complaint.
If one is buying new, why not go modern? Yes, I rode the Rockies back in the 80's with friction shifters on the downtube, 6 speed freewheels, cantilever brakes and half-step triple with 120mm spacing. Now I have indexed brifters, 9 speed cassettes with 135mm rear spacing and disc brakes (135mm wheel is much stronger than a 120mm). I can tune a 1970 carb but I'd rather tune my 2008 OBDII pickup, it's better as is my new Fog Cutter compare to my 1982 Trek 520....
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Old 03-18-17, 08:01 AM   #48
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I would've made the same argument until I tried it. Although I wouldn't tour at 100 mile per day on anything, the sixty to eighty I do cover are much easier and more pleasant since moving up to 50mm tires.
Marc
My disagreement was 3 fold. You addressed 1 of them, though passively addressed another with your picture.

1- it was claimed that big guys need 29er wheels to tour. I disagree and find that requirement, as an opiniin stated as fact, to be absurd.
Totally agree with you that 50s will be more comfortable compared to road tires. 35s and 38s will also be more comfortable than typical road tires. 50s for road only...thats getting up there at the extreme end of where performance on pavement is sacrificed for comfort, compared to slightly smaller volumes with less rotating weight. But sure, 50mm tires will be comfortable, we agree.

2- the Ogre is overkill for road only tohring where 100mi per day is being knocked out as its built for off pavement bikepacking. Its built heavier than necessary for smooth long road cycling.

3- 100mi per day with a flat bar will bring many a man to tears. This was my other reason for criticizing the Ogre- 100mi or road riding per day will typically be more comfortable on drop bars due to the many hand positions.
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Old 03-18-17, 08:14 AM   #49
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" 100mi or road riding per day will typically be more comfortable on drop bars due to the many hand positions."
For most riders I agree, especially about the many hand positions, but I have back issues so find drop bars
very uncomfortable. Consequently all my years of touring has been done with flat bars with adjustable
extensions in order to enjoy multiple hand positions..
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Old 03-18-17, 08:14 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by edthesped View Post
I would as well but if I needed a daily driver and funds were tight I'd have to take the Mazda. I'm now fortunate enough to have disposable income, something that sure wasn't the case when i was in my 20's and bought the Chevelle, it sure looked cool, I just didn't fully understand my needs at the time.
That is a good counter point.
My son has an El Camino, 327, headers centerline mags etc... sitting in the driveway but uses a Honda Accord because the former cost too much in gas.

Quote:
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If one is buying new, why not go modern? Yes, I rode the Rockies back in the 80's with friction shifters on the downtube, 6 speed freewheels, cantilever brakes and half-step triple with 120mm spacing. Now I have indexed brifters, 9 speed cassettes with 135mm rear spacing and disc brakes (135mm wheel is much stronger than a 120mm). I can tune a 1970 carb but I'd rather tune my 2008 OBDII pickup, it's better as is my new Fog Cutter compare to my 1982 Trek 520....
And yet... you toured the Rockies in the 80's just fine - as I did. You list a bunch of upgrades which, quite frankly, I don't think make a bit of difference really. 6 vs 9 gears? Cassette vs free wheel? Canti vs disc? Brifters vs friction? They are all just personal choices and not technological show stoppers for touring.
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