gauvins

(More context below. For now, my question is which solvent would work best).

Which solvent would you use to clean your chain(s) during an extended tour? The idea is to carry a small quantity (less than 500 ml / 2 cups) to clean chains once a week.

(1) Flammable solvents (kerosene/diesel) cannot be carried on a plane so I would have to purchase at destination.

(2) Non-flammable (e.g. citrus based) solvents are allowed on planes but may not be worth the trouble if the chain has to be washed in water and allowed dry for an extended period of time before being lubricated. It also seems that some of these non-flammable solvents contain alkalis that may damage metal parts that would be stored in them.

(3) I believe that there are specialized solvents that are very effective and dry fast without leaving residue. They do not seem to be available to mere mortals like me. They also seem to be sold in large quantities (5 gallons, drums). So that may not be an option.

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Two years ago, I was a total newbie. We toured all summer with the kids and the routine involved pouring more oil once a week. Needless to say, at the end of the summer, there was a heavy coat of gunk on the drivetrain, to the point of provoking occasional chainsucks. Chains had to be changed after 3000kms, which I found troublesome, not because of the cost (negligible) but because I didn't like the idea of having to hunt for a replacement chain in the middle of a longer tour. Since then, I wipe. Much better.

Then I tried (aggressively) to learn about chain wear. My understanding is that most of the elongation comes from friction between pins and plates. It has little to do with road dirt and more with the size of the sprockets and chainrings used to power the bike (larger sprockets/rings translate into longer chain life). It also, very probably, has much to do with keeping "the inside" of the chain, i.e. the plate/pin interface, as clean as possible, something that can reasonably be achieved with solvents and mechanical action, such as vigorously shaking the chain in a (wide mouth) bottle, or for the consummate perfectionist, with an ultrasonic cleaner. Anecdotal evidence suggests that chain life can be increased several-fold, almost certainly twice as long, possibly up to 10 times as long.

There are also plenty of contrary advices, but they seem to be aimed at user error. Using solvent may cause more harm than good if it removes factory applied lubricant that is not replaced by new lubricant. This is why solvent has to evaporate completely before the chain is re-lubricated. Hence suggestions to rinse chains in alcohol and finish the drying process in an oven...

i will not take chain cleaning/lubrication to such extremes. But I rotate two chains every 800kms or so (once a week on tour). And at home I've started to shake-in-the-bottle with mineral spirits, allowing the off-bike chain to dry a fews days before re-applying lubricant. Early in the process, but it seems to effectively slow down elongation and the amount of (magnetic) gunk that settles at the bottom of the solvent bottle attests to the fact that wear occurs internally (i.e. the gunk isn't from road dust, but from metal particles generated by the chain flexing around the sprockets).

My commute is short and our winters are long, such that a large proportion of our cycling mileage accrues on tour. Which explains why I am considering cleaning our chains on extended tours, once a week (or actually, carrying the off-the-bike chains in a bottle filled with solvent). As of now, I lean towards stopping at a gas station / supermarket/ hardware store to get a small amount of kerosene (or white gas). Kerosene (white gas) can also be used as fuel for camp stoves. So the logistics would be more straightforward.

prathmann

I have yet to see any good evidence in support of this. The best controlled experiment that I've seen was reported many years ago on the Usenet group rec.bicycles. The chain was split in half and reconnected using two quick-links and a tiny scratch marked on one of the links to distinguish the two halves. Every 500 miles of so the chain was removed, split in two, and only one half was thoroughly cleaned. The two halves were then measured, reinstalled, and relubricated. After a few thousand miles a definite trend was observed in the measured lengths with the half that was repeatedly cleaned consistently measuring longer (i.e. more worn) than the half that was never cleaned.
While I don't remember the details of the cleaning procedure, I do recall that it seemed quite thorough and that care was taken to ensure complete lubrication of the interior of the chain afterwards.

I don't normally do any chain cleaning and wouldn't consider doing it on tour. Finding a replacement chain every 10000 km or so doesn't seem like too much of an inconvenience.

El.Gato

Whow, but you find changing a chain every 3000 km too troublesome? If you do so much hassle to avoid it? Sorry, but there really is some irony in that...
(No pun intended)

What I do on tour is I take some wd40 in a little bottle and Clean the chain with a cloth soaked in that stuff when necessary (I hear when my chain needs some tlc - it gets too loud). Then I apply some lube. But that is not different from what I do at home. When the chain gets too long I change it. Usually every 3-4000 km.

Works for me. My next touring bike will have a belt.

Steve0000

I wipe accumulated dirt off the chain with rags found along the way. I change the chain every 4000km which means a chain lasts over 2 months. I don't worry about cleaning the chain with solvents as it is just something extra to carry. One mechanic suggested detergent was as good as anything.

Eggman84

On tour (granted the longest has been only 3 weeks) I
1) Wipe the chain (by backpedaling) to remove any larger debris.
2) Wipe off any buildup (dried lubricant mixed with dirt) from the cassette, chainrings, and derailleur pulleys.
3) Apply lubricant to each roller (use the lubricant you prefer, I use TriFlow).
4) Back pedal to work lubricant into space between pins/bushings/rollers.
5) Wipe off excess lubricant (by backpedaling)

I assume you could do a deep clean if you are taking rest days. In that case, removing the chain from the bike and placing it in a bottle (don't need to bring one from home, just use a large Gatorade or similar bottle) with some solvent probably isn't overkill. Even dish soap will work, though you may need to refresh several times, but it will get off the large majority of the grime. I think if you set the chain in the sun for an hour or so will drive off any water/solvent "trapped" in the spaces between the pins/bushings/rollers. Then put the chain back on and lube as usual.

Final word: as with all things touring, do what makes sense to you and that you are comfortable with.

twodownzero

Wipe chain, lube, allow solvent to evaporate, and wipe chain again. No need for solvents or anything of that sort on the road.

Doug64

I do pretty much the same as Steve. I get a little over 5,000 km (3000 miles) from chains on tour, and longer when at home. I wipe the chain down, about every 490 km (300 miles), and relube with White Lightning Epic (wiping the excess off), a "semi-dry" chain lube. Epic chain lube is a good compromise between durability and not collecting a lot of gunk. I also relube after any really wet periods. If we start to go over 5000 km on a tour I'll start looking for a bike shop to get a new one.

On a 6000 km tour we replaced the chains toward the end of the ride.

This was my wife's chain toward the end of a 4900 km (3000 mile) ride through Europe, which included 650 km (400 miles) of dirt roads and trails, and 35 days of rain. I ran out White Lightning Epic, and the only chain lube I could find was a wet weather heavy wet lube. The day this picture was taken she rode through an area where roadside grass was being mowed. I would have cleaned the jockey wheel on her rear derailleur, but we only had a few more days before we reached the airport.



Contrast that chain with one where only Epic was used in some pretty tough conditions. This was after 2400 km (1500 miles)

fietsbob

you going for more than a year? I just put on a new chain on when I come back home..

Brian25

An elephant would put more pressure on a pedal than a mouse. Being said, maybe I am more of a mouse, because I have easily gotten over 10k of loaded touring miles on a chain without (stretching it), wearing it out.

djb

despite being much more in the direction of mouse than elephant, and being someone who is pretty careful about keeping my drivetrain clean and lubed, Ive never gone 16,000km on a chain without having to replace a cassette before.

I generally follow the 1/16th stretch over a foot length rule and also am in the 5-6000 KM range of chain like, over numerous years of changing chains from 7-9 speed stuff.

gauvins

I think I've read description of this experiment somewhere. Now all I can find is this other recollection on Redd dit (sorry for the extra space, as the original spelling is banned by this site... the url, also banned so you'll have to remove the blank and copy/paste in your browser, is https://www.redd it.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/4nor1d/some_questions_on_bike_chain_cleaning/), where the conclusion is that there were no significant differences.

Frankly, I am not sure what should be expected from this kind of experiment -- I mean, can we really expect that one half of the chain can stretch more than the other??

We can find all sorts of chain mileage, and this thread is no exception. I would argue that the expected life of a chain in average to adverse conditions can be expected to be in the vicinity of 2 500 kms for 0.5% stretch. This happens to jive with my experience and is coincidentally almost precisely the conclusion of the Wipperman-sponsored study.

I am not aware of any meaningful and systematic comparison of chain life under different maintenance schedules. When I wrote "anecdotal evidence", I mean that if you read about ultrasonic cleaning, you'll find that many posts claim important improvements in chain life. These claims may well be biased (if you go to such extreme trouble, it better do something, right?). But I seem to be able to see that chain cleaning with a solvent does reduce stretch, so I'd tend to believe that it does. (and if you read threads about ultrasonic whistles that purportedly annoy dogs, you'll find many testimonials saying that users have tried and that it doesn't work reliably -- so maybe there is no confirmation bias after all).

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Regarding the relevance of this, while traveling... it is certainly not worth spending energy for short to medium-length tours (i.e. of less than, say, 5 000 kms). It is not so clear for longer tours, however. Two observations:

(1) I've perused repair logs that long-distance tourers post on CGOAB and other places, and the average chain life is under 6 000 kms. I suppose that chains were more likely than not to be changed after they created issues. I've also met long-term tourers and they spontaneously mentioned having had to to replace chain and cassette during their (7 5000+ kms) trip, which was not a found memory. First there is the annoyance of mechanical failures. Second there is the time wasted finding replacement parts, that may or may not be fully compatible or matching the quality of your setup.

(2) I am presently rotating chains in order to increase drivetrain's life. Zero trouble with Connex's quicklinks that do not require any sort of tool. So chain cleaning while traveling simply means carrying the alternate chains in a bottle half-filled with some solvent, placed in the under-the-downtube bottle cage (which I do not typically use). Really not that complicated.

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Actually, I think that I've settled the question with myself, and that the answer is kerosene. Apparently, white gas isn't available in China, whereas kerosene is, and MSR international stove burns kerosene, among other fuels. So the next question is whether one can use kerosene that has been used to clean a chain as camp stove fuel

prathmann

I see no reason why we wouldn't see more wear in one half of the chain than in the other half if there were really an advantage to be gained by regular cleaning. The wear is on the individual parts of each link so if there's a benefit from cleaning that link it should show up as reduced elongation of that part of the chain.

It's the other 'studies' that I don't trust where someone starts a rigorous cleaning procedure and then reports a somewhat greater chain life. But if you know you're trying to keep the chain really clean won't you be just a bit less likely to go out on a ride in inclement weather, avoid routes with dirt/gravel sections, or do a myriad other things that may increase the life of the chain? Never trust studies where they haven't taken care to keep all the other variables fixed.

chrisx

No, because the dirt from the chain clogs the stove. Is the MSR allowed on the plane?

What you need is a chain checker.

https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...1&category=218
https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...p?category=218

I replace my chain at .5, some people wait until .7, The 6,000 km people need a new cassette. As the chain stretches, it makes the valleys in the cassette wider. If you change your chain early, the cassette lasts longer, a lot longer. If you let your chain, or chains, stretch you need a new cassette, and new chain rings.

On tour, I clean the chain each morning with a tooth brush and rag, then add Tri flow. I do not carry a spare chain or bottle of fluid to soak the chain in. Well maybe if the chain is at .3 and I expect to change it in a couple of hundred miles.

At home, I soak the chain in biodiesel, for an hour or so, then clean it throughly with various brushes. Biodiesel leaves no film when it evaporites, does kerosean leave a film? Things that leave a film are out, as the oil does not stick to the film the way it does to metal. Brake cleaning fluid cleans chains quite well, (overkill).

Chains are consumable. Use it until it reaches .5 or .7 and than put it in the trash. Maybe sadlesores will pipe in and say what type of chains and cassettes are available all over China.

Does soaking a chain for a week cause corrosion, or fatigue the thin meatal of the chain, or damage the nickle plateing?

Simple answer:
wipe it clean once a day, add oil, use chain checker, and replace when needed.

Clean with rag and tooth brush, oil, wipe oil off the out side of the chain with rag, ride all day.

less is more;
with less stuff, you enjoy the tour more.
2 chains is if you are riding around a place where they do not sell bicycle parts.
Are there any places like that anymore? I read posts by 90 year olds on crazyguy about 2 chains and letting them each wear a little at a time. Get with the times man. Less weight = more fun.

djb

re keeping a chain in a solvent for a long time, a few years ago cyccocommute did an experiment where he was able to show that keeping a chain in X solvent caused the metal to weaken. I dont recall how long ago, or the name of the thread, but it was fairly conclusive.

so check this out, I certainly wouldnt keep the extra chain in something for more than a good clean, then lube.

good luck finding the thread, the search thing on this site never works for me, so Ive given up on it.

veganbikes

I would get a nice clean happy chain before starting and then continue using a good wax lube throughout and wipe as needed. Since wax lube generally keeps my chain cleaner I really don't deep clean them much and sometimes just give a light wipe with a rag. I personally use Finish Line Ceramic Wax Lube and love the stuff but I don't give two doo-doos about the lube and don't feel the need to see people argue.

If things did get really muddy I would likely do my best to get mud of the derailleurs and such and maybe rinse the chain with some water, wipe and relube. If really bad and near a bike shop or auto shop I might try and use the parts washer but knowing me I probably wouldn't unless it wouldn't shift or shift well enough.

If I knew I was gone for a really long tour I might find a shop at a certain mileage (beforehand) special order a chain I needed (or make sure they had it) and then gone in and replaced it or if I was in a foreign country like Canadia where they don't speak 'Merican (relax and laugh) I might just carry an extra chain with me. Or I might reach out to the shop and try and borrow some stuff or let them do a little DT clean.

gauvins

The problem is that both halves share the same sprockets. If one section elongates faster, it'll wear the sprockets to match it's pitch. The shorter chain half's links will then be submitted to proportionally greater force, which will accelerate wear.

I understand the basic idea (et ceteris paribus). But I am not convinced that it makes sense. I'd rather read about comparable drivetrains and simulated riding conditions where the maintenance schedule is manipulated.

gauvins

Hey! Thanks for the reference. @cyccommute writes that true mineral spirits DO NOT interact with metals, but chloride solutions (substitutes for mineral spirits) do. This is why you read here and there negative advice wrt Simple Green and other mineral spirits substitutes.


@cyccommute has written fairly extensively on the topic of chain maintenance. I'd rather have him explain again if it were useful, but let me try to summarize. He removes factory lubrication with solvents, puts dry-lube. He suggests that his chains last for several thousands of miles and believes that this longevity is due to the fact that dry lube doesn't attract dirt as much as wet lube, so there is no grinding paste on/inside the chain.

This approach makes perfect sense for commuters, maybe slightly less for extended tours where good dry lubes may be difficult to procure.

saddlesores

what a ridiculous experiment! of course THOROUGH cleaning will be better than NEVER cleaning!

i'd expect this kind of experiment from a dental floss manufacturer.
take a set of twins, one brushes and flosses daily, and gets regular check-ups.
the other one NEVER brushes.
after ten years, the twin with good dental hygiene has a perfect teeth, while
the one who never cleans his teeth no longer has teeth.
wow! a great advertisement to........buy....more.....floss!
....forgetting there's no way to know (from this experiment) whether
floss has any effect at all, or perhaps even negative effects.

gauvins

Hmm... particulates can be removed using a filter. There would be traces of oil. Probably not enough to do damage.

And yes, the stove can (usually) fly. It has to be thoroughly cleaned, however -- no fuel smell. Same with the fuel bottle

MarcusT

Another one for the wax based lubes. I use Squirt and have not had to clean the chain since. (about 3,000 km). If that doesn't convince you, there are bio-friendly de-greasers.

joseruivo

Briliiant, so simple and efective! I don't think I'll clean my road bike chain in a diferent manner ever again! Thank you for the idea!!
Not sure how it might work on the MTB, but will definitelly try it.

For the OP, if you're going through dusty roads/path, remember that "dry" lube atracts a lot less dirt. I you use a chain lenght checker, you can start looking for a new chain once it reachs 0.5 elongation, and change the chain once it gets to 0.07.

Worst case scenario, if you start off with a new chain, think you will wear it out, and fear you won't be able to find a new one... there are light chains which you could can carry as spare from the start of your travel, or get from the last "civilized" place you visit before going into the "wilderness"...

Good luck

prathmann

Except that it wasn't when the experiment was actually done.

Note that similar controlled experiments are done all the time with proposed new medicines whose inventors have good theoretical grounds for believing they will be effective. Some of them actually do work and are adopted while others are disappointing and are rejected.

prathmann

That would reduce the observed difference in rate of wear between the two half-chains, but shouldn't reverse the observed effect. When the experiment was done the cleaned half actually wore faster - so if anything it would be the part of the chain that was wearing the sprockets more.

djb

good, glad you found it. It was interesting to read, and he seems like a very methodical guy so I trust what he did and his results.

Gauv, I can relate to when you do your family trips, I presume its you doing all the bike maintenance, and as I do all that stuff here in our household, I can appreciate the time that gets spent when one person ends up doing chain and drivetrain cleaning on 4 bikes, it can take a while!

I figure Ive become very efficient and fast doing drivetrain cleaning now, and have tried all kinds of lubes over the years. Clearly the fastest and cleanest ones are the thin dry lubes. Its clear that they dont attract dirt as much, and are really fast to put on--place the chain in big ring and little cog at back, a quick rag wipe, turn pedals and mucho drip right onto the chain at the 11 cog area , maybe wipe off some excess but the stuff I used was so thin and would dry out right away that that pretty much was it.
I'd maybe do a quick rag wipe after a ride just to keep the chain super clean, but both the chain and chainrings and cassettes clearly stay cleaner with these lubes---but of course, you pretty much have to do this every ride or three, especially with any rain, every ride.
After riding in rain, I'd always do the rag wipe and reapply right away these thin dry lubes, but it was so fast and clean it was over in a minute or two.

so yes, you go through lube faster, especially with many bikes, and yes, if yoiu cant find replacement lube in stores its a problem---AND then we get into teh whole "chain life" issue--I dont have have enough data to know if with these dry lubes do chains last less or more than with other lubes, but for sure they are cleaner.

Like I always come back to with these discussions, for me using a "middle of the road" lube like triflow, less sticky than thicker ones has advantages for generally less gunk build up and easy rag cleaning, but thicker than the really thin ones so better for rain and stuff and lasts for many, many days riding in good weather.

the other thing that I do with rag cleaning is that once in a while when chain looks a bit more dirty, I spend the time and "kink or bend up" each link into a V shape so I can very quickly wipe off the stuff that accumulates on the rollers that doesnt get wiped by a regular rag wiping over the straight chain.

It takes maybe 5-10 mins to do the whole chain, and I channel my inner Catholicness and its like doing prayer beads ;-) but then the chain really is very clean and I dont have to mess around with cleaners and removing the chain. But I certainly wouldnt have the patience to do this on four bikes!

I guess in the end it really depends on where you are travelling, and what sort of bike stores are around and what chain lubes can be found. If with the family, sticking a spare bottle or two into someones pannier shouldnt be a problem also if you are worried about running out and not being able to find some.

gauvins

I am actually pretty lazy wrt maintenance. May look like I am deep on the OCD spectrum, but not really. I am just ferociously curious and somewhat methodical. For us, bike maintenance requires next to no time. There is the occasional saddle / handlebar / whatnot adjustment, a weekly lubrication (15 minutes total?) and maybe a wipe, here and there.

Regarding the specifics of lubrication -- I use CHAIN-L. It lasts a very long time (easily 800kms, which translates into a week or more of touring / one bottle was more than enough for our summer trips). I have considered alternatives such as White Lightning, but there is the "highly flammable" warning on the bottle, so there is a definite risk that it'd be confiscated at the gate, and I don't like the idea of searching for an alternative in a foreign country. And as you say, using dry lube would probably mean applying lubricant every day. Not appealing.

My wife and daughter's bikes are set with Shimano chains, that I do not rotate. I am experimenting rotation with mine (Connex Sx) and I expect to start rotating all chains next year.

Next longish tour (looks like summer 2019) I may start cleaning the chains in solvent. Minimal additional hassle, potential benefit or longer drivetrain life. Yet not something to worry about.