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Old 08-10-17, 10:04 PM   #1
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Through axles

So what's your opinion of through axles?
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Old 08-10-17, 10:30 PM   #2
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For me, they're a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the 1st place.

The gradual degradation of QR design and construction took a once reliable item, and introduced a number of challenges. Then the advent of disc brakes iced that cake, especially up front where the brake is mounted on the wrong side of the blade.

Lastly, the desire to make CF frames and forks without attaching metal dropouts, just about made thru axles necessary.

But, as I said, not for me because I use trustworthy skewers on metal ended forks, and don't have disc brakes. OTOH - if you don' meet most or all of those conditions, then thru axles may be the answer.
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Old 08-10-17, 10:34 PM   #3
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All that extra weight-- I don't know...

I think it would work out great for a road bike that was to be integrated into a complete system for use with--e.g., a fluid trainer.
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Old 08-11-17, 12:43 AM   #4
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I like em on CX/Gravel/MTBs. Not really necessary for road bikes, even with disc brakes. Heck, my older 26" MTBs with disc brakes are all QR and they're still fine, though you *can* feel the change in stiffness, especially on the front end with suspension forks. I don't really see why anyone here would whine about weight though. Most of us are probably hauling enough junk that it isn't that big a factor in how well a tour goes.

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Old 08-11-17, 04:49 AM   #5
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I don't think that thru-axles are necessary for a touring bike. IIRC, they were developed to keep the wheels from flying off mountain bikes during hard use. I don't think many of us will be touring with that amount of intensity.
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Old 08-11-17, 07:34 AM   #6
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They don't belong on bikes with quill stems.
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Old 08-11-17, 08:15 AM   #7
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So what's your opinion of through axles?
What's YOUR opinion of through axles? You have apparently owned a Trek 920 with front and rear through axles for over a year. Please share your experience with a touring bike with through axles.

You will likely get more feedback on the subject of through axles in the mountain biking forum.
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Old 08-11-17, 08:49 AM   #8
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I'm okay with them. They seem to help position the disc more accurately in the caliper. Maybe a larger axle means a stronger axle. I'm not concerned with the extra time it takes for wheel replacement, Road racers would. So put me on the plus side. But not a big deal.
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Old 08-11-17, 09:50 AM   #9
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I'm okay with them. They seem to help position the disc more accurately in the caliper. Maybe a larger axle means a stronger axle. I'm not concerned with the extra time it takes for wheel replacement, Road racers would. So put me on the plus side. But not a big deal.

I find that they don't actually take any longer than QR wheels once you get used to them and practice a little.
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Old 08-11-17, 12:02 PM   #10
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I don't tour (yet) and realize that this is a touring forum.

I do however, own a bike with through axles and have removed a wheel when on a ride so I do have personal experience. People blow it way out of proportion. Through axles are literally no big deal.

Time - If you are taking the wheel off during a ride then you are likely going to spend some time on the side of the road anyway. The extra time to get a multi-tool out of the saddle bag is inconsequential and you are likely going into your saddlebag anyway. It takes no more time to cinch down a through axle with a hex wrench than it does to tighten a QR and one does not have to fidget with it to get it right.

Parts - Just slide the axle into the hole and give it a twist for safekeeping while while working on your tire or chain. The axle is one part while the QR skewer is at least four parts.

Weight - Good quality axles are nothing more than a hollow tube of aluminum.

My point is that through axles are not cumbersome, time consuming or heavy at all. These are all misconceptions.


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Old 08-11-17, 12:08 PM   #11
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they are becoming a packaged deal with carbon fiber forks with disc wheels on go fast road bikes.

I'm not in the market for that kind of bicycle..

I recall my 1968 BMW M/C had a rear thru axle.. , you pulled out to remove the wheel..
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Old 08-11-17, 01:39 PM   #12
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Seems as though the "go fast road bikes" are actually sticking with rim brakes. Because? Weight? not getting cut up by a disc in a big pile up? Faster wheel changes?
What bicycles have disc? cyclocross, MTB, tandems, mid range road, "adventure", mid range touring.
Interesting !! Seems mostly the low end and high end bicycles are sticking with quick release.
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Old 08-11-17, 02:05 PM   #13
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So what's your opinion of through axles?
What kind are on your bike?
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Old 08-11-17, 03:00 PM   #14
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What kind are on your bike?
You'ld be better off calling Trek, I couldn't tell you details. Ask about the Trek 920. But I'm satisfied with the through axles in general.
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Old 08-11-17, 03:36 PM   #15
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Seems as though the "go fast road bikes" are actually sticking with rim brakes. Because? Weight? not getting cut up by a disc in a big pile up? Faster wheel changes?
What bicycles have disc? cyclocross, MTB, tandems, mid range road, "adventure", mid range touring.
Interesting !! Seems mostly the low end and high end bicycles are sticking with quick release.
Incorrect. Increasingly, higher-end "go fast road bikes", as you put it, are being made available in both disc and non-disc versions -- certainly by the major manufacturers.

The market and/or UCI will decide whether one, the other, or both will prevail.

Not sure how that's relevant in any event in the Touring forum?
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Old 08-11-17, 06:50 PM   #16
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Time - If you are taking the wheel off during a ride then you are likely going to spend some time on the side of the road anyway. The extra time to get a multi-tool out of the saddle bag is inconsequential and you are likely going into your saddlebag anyway. It takes no more time to cinch down a through axle with a hex wrench than it does to tighten a QR and one does not have to fidget with it to get it right.
On rides where I need to drive to the start there are two times that I routinely need to deal with the wheels: once to reinstall them before the ride and once to take them off before putting the bike back in my trunk after the ride. Neither involves using any tool nor is there any 'fidgeting' - just opening the lever to take them off and pushing it closed to put them on ('lawyer lips' are not allowed on my bikes). I'd estimate that using through axles would take at least twice as long (even more if it involved any tool). Still not a lot of time, but certainly more.
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Old 08-11-17, 07:13 PM   #17
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My Vaya Travel and GR250 have Thru-Axles. Vaya had QR originally, but now I have the 12mm front and rear. It's much easier to align the rotor into the calipers. I was using hex key skewer because QR skewers slipped on me on bumpy down hill braking. Thru-Axle seems like the better solution for disc brake equipped bikes.
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Old 08-11-17, 07:25 PM   #18
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Another bit of bling unnecessary for touring, but good for taking more money off people.... Like CF frames, 1X gearing, disc brakes, rohloff and pinion gearing systems, electronic shifting, tubeless.....
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Old 08-11-17, 10:01 PM   #19
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Another bit of bling unnecessary for touring, but good for taking more money off people.... Like CF frames, 1X gearing, disc brakes, rohloff and pinion gearing systems, electronic shifting, tubeless.....
.... triple chainrings, cassettes, gearing in general, freewheels, metal rims, rim brakes, butted frame tubes, safety frame etc. How far do you want to take this? Or is there some magical year before which available tech is good and useable but after which advancements in cycling tech are unnecessary bling.

CF-frames. Good for recreational riding, not so much for touring.

1X gearing is glorious for touring and it's weird you see it as bling. Current mid range 1x crankset are maybe 20-30 bucks more expensive than deore level triples so price is not an issue. They remove complexity by removing extra chainrings and a whole shifter system. Also with current wide range cassettes you get pretty dang decent range with good low end gearing. And you reduce weight with almost no compromize. Actually one could say you lose weight and also optimize the system for better performance so it's a win win.

Disc brakes should become mandatory on touring bikes, they're just so good. Considering how difficult it is to source a specific touring rim on the road after a wearout i'd imagine people would be more into discs.

The benefits of both rohloff and pinion are pretty significant and recoqnized widely within the touring community. A seriously robust rear wheel is one of the main advantages but there are a host of others as well.

Does anyone use e-shifting on touring bikes?

Tubeless would be better than tubes if there was better availability in tires. Current offerings are a bit slim but if there were more selection the benefits would be more comfort, more puncture protection, better grip, faster (marginally), lower weight and a system with less complexity.
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Old 08-11-17, 11:03 PM   #20
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.... triple chainrings, cassettes, gearing in general, freewheels, metal rims, rim brakes, butted frame tubes, safety frame etc. How far do you want to take this? Or is there some magical year before which available tech is good and useable but after which advancements in cycling tech are unnecessary bling.

CF-frames. Good for recreational riding, not so much for touring.

1X gearing is glorious for touring and it's weird you see it as bling. Current mid range 1x crankset are maybe 20-30 bucks more expensive than deore level triples so price is not an issue. They remove complexity by removing extra chainrings and a whole shifter system. Also with current wide range cassettes you get pretty dang decent range with good low end gearing. And you reduce weight with almost no compromize. Actually one could say you lose weight and also optimize the system for better performance so it's a win win.

Disc brakes should become mandatory on touring bikes, they're just so good. Considering how difficult it is to source a specific touring rim on the road after a wearout i'd imagine people would be more into discs.

The benefits of both rohloff and pinion are pretty significant and recoqnized widely within the touring community. A seriously robust rear wheel is one of the main advantages but there are a host of others as well.

Does anyone use e-shifting on touring bikes?

Tubeless would be better than tubes if there was better availability in tires. Current offerings are a bit slim but if there were more selection the benefits would be more comfort, more puncture protection, better grip, faster (marginally), lower weight and a system with less complexity.
1X gearing. So you restrict yourself to either 10 speeds with a reasonably fast wearing chain and a reasonably priced cassette but big jumps between gears. 11 speeds with a fast wearing chain and smaller gaps and a reasonably priced cassette. or 12 speed with a fast wearing chain and a fast wearing, expensive cassette, still with some pretty big gaps between gears and even with the latest 10-50 cassette, still only 500%. Or you run with a cheap and cheerful triple. 20, 30, 40 front and 12-36 rear. 8 speed is getting hard to get higher end stuff, so we'll be stuck with 9 speed Deore here and a 600% gear range. I have 11 speed 1x on my MTB, it eats chains even without a load.

Disc brakes. No more effective in a touring environment than rim brakes. Much heavier, so there goes your weight advantage from going 1X. Much more fragile when travelling. Having to take the discs off loose wheels when packing a bike is a PITA. Can fade on big descents. Cable discs need constant adjustment. I've toured on both, so yeah, had to deal with all that. Haven't toured on hydraulics yet but do have them on my MTB. Would have to remember to fit a piston keeper when transporting though, just in case you accidentally hit the lever.

Benefits of Rohloff and Pinion aren't pretty significant. The Rohloff is noisy and heavy and drags like an anchor when freewheeling. It's a PITA with sliding drop outs and cable disc brakes because you have to adjust the brakes every time you move the wheel in the frame, even if you try and put the wheel back in the same place, even if you have tuggnuts. It doesn't have a wide enough gearing range for heavily loaded touring, only 536%. You have to use their special oil every 5000km, not a biggie, but in my country the kit costs $33 each and you can't buy bigger bottles unless you import them yourself. Things do wear out, pick the wrong chain and you're up for a $30 Rohloff sprocket, and the extra for the sprocket tool in my case. Of course Rohloff don't sell the flange reinforcing rings for no reason, I haven't fitted mine yet, but they are recommended for heavy touring. The Pinion is even heavier. 2.7kg without the custom mounting needed on the frame. No swapping your shiny gearbox from bike to bike either, unless it's a pinion frame... does have a good gear range though, 636%, but you pay for that. Both of them, if they break, you are dead in the water, they have to go back to the factory. I haven't tried the Pinion, but I do have a Rohloff.

And tubeless? Best you check you can seat the bead before you go remote... unless you carry a spare tube, but then what's the point? Given I haven't had a puncture touring with tubes yet, but I have had plenty of trouble getting tubeless to seat on my MTB, even with a floor pump, I've had to use a compressor on some, I'm not going there.

My first bike was $70 plus some parts, and it's no less capable than the top shelf one I have now, except for posing in campsites, and to be honest I think I got more street cred from riding a 20 year old bike than the latest technology
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Old 08-11-17, 11:36 PM   #21
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Disc brakes. No more effective in a touring environment than rim brakes. Much heavier, so there goes your weight advantage from going 1X. Much more fragile when travelling. Having to take the discs off loose wheels when packing a bike is a PITA. Can fade on big descents. Cable discs need constant adjustment. I've toured on both, so yeah, had to deal with all that. Haven't toured on hydraulics yet but do have them on my MTB. Would have to remember to fit a piston keeper when transporting though, just in case you accidentally hit the lever.
I disagree a bit on that one. The weight penalty is laughable the instant you start hauling a decent load. I take my touring bikes on dirt 4x4 only roads quite a bit, and I still go touring in Japan during the rainy season a lot, which makes discs pretty nice. All the other stuff isn't nearly as much of a pain or problem as you're making them out to be considering that some of those are still problems with rim brakes too. And I fly my folding mtb with hydro discs in a plain fabric bag, the only thing I've had damaged so far was a chain ring that I bent back into shape with a leatherman and crescent wrench.
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Old 08-11-17, 11:58 PM   #22
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1X gearing. So you restrict yourself to either 10 speeds with a reasonably fast wearing chain and a reasonably priced cassette but big jumps between gears. 11 speeds with a fast wearing chain and smaller gaps and a reasonably priced cassette. or 12 speed with a fast wearing chain and a fast wearing, expensive cassette, still with some pretty big gaps between gears and even with the latest 10-50 cassette, still only 500%. Or you run with a cheap and cheerful triple. 20, 30, 40 front and 12-36 rear. 8 speed is getting hard to get higher end stuff, so we'll be stuck with 9 speed Deore here and a 600% gear range. I have 11 speed 1x on my MTB, it eats chains even without a load.

Disc brakes. No more effective in a touring environment than rim brakes. Much heavier, so there goes your weight advantage from going 1X. Much more fragile when travelling. Having to take the discs off loose wheels when packing a bike is a PITA. Can fade on big descents. Cable discs need constant adjustment. I've toured on both, so yeah, had to deal with all that. Haven't toured on hydraulics yet but do have them on my MTB. Would have to remember to fit a piston keeper when transporting though, just in case you accidentally hit the lever.

Benefits of Rohloff and Pinion aren't pretty significant. The Rohloff is noisy and heavy and drags like an anchor when freewheeling. It's a PITA with sliding drop outs and cable disc brakes because you have to adjust the brakes every time you move the wheel in the frame, even if you try and put the wheel back in the same place, even if you have tuggnuts. It doesn't have a wide enough gearing range for heavily loaded touring, only 536%. You have to use their special oil every 5000km, not a biggie, but in my country the kit costs $33 each and you can't buy bigger bottles unless you import them yourself. Things do wear out, pick the wrong chain and you're up for a $30 Rohloff sprocket, and the extra for the sprocket tool in my case. Of course Rohloff don't sell the flange reinforcing rings for no reason, I haven't fitted mine yet, but they are recommended for heavy touring. The Pinion is even heavier. 2.7kg without the custom mounting needed on the frame. No swapping your shiny gearbox from bike to bike either, unless it's a pinion frame... does have a good gear range though, 636%, but you pay for that. Both of them, if they break, you are dead in the water, they have to go back to the factory. I haven't tried the Pinion, but I do have a Rohloff.

And tubeless? Best you check you can seat the bead before you go remote... unless you carry a spare tube, but then what's the point? Given I haven't had a puncture touring with tubes yet, but I have had plenty of trouble getting tubeless to seat on my MTB, even with a floor pump, I've had to use a compressor on some, I'm not going there.

My first bike was $70 plus some parts, and it's no less capable than the top shelf one I have now, except for posing in campsites, and to be honest I think I got more street cred from riding a 20 year old bike than the latest technology
My 1x11 doesn't eat chains even with load. It's actually more durable than the 9-speed chains I used to use. This actually goes with the things I've heard from other users, namely that 11-speed chains are more durable than the older gen stuff.

Now I don't know about you but 500% is plenty range for me. I can get 20 gear inches in the low end and still get a max speed of 42km/h with 90rpm cadence for the downhills. I actually prefer a little less since I go faster coasting down than I would when pedaling. To me it feels like a super high gearing range after a certain point is just a mentula measuring contest. It's extremely rare to be able to use the highest gear so that it still has a benefit on speed. Coasting down hills is usually faster and to get to 50km/h on the flats? Not likely.

I also don't mind the larger jumps. I can adapt my cadence so it's not an issue for me.

Funnily enough discs aren't that much heavier any more. Also like you said, if you can offset the potential gain with a 1x11 then it's a literal non-issue.

If you take the discs off, how is it more fragile...? Also taking a disc off takes a minute or so. My day would be ruined from that for sure.

Can fade on big descents, yeah why not. If you can't descend with proper technique you can get big issues with all types of brakes, like a tire blowout or molten brake pads which is a little worse than a bit of fade.

I don't get the complaint of constant adjustment. Hydraulics are the only brake system that don't need that... rim brakes require constant adjustment just as much as mech discs do, or actually depending on the rim brake they require a metric sh*tton more. Avid ultimate shorty's are the worst in this regard.
In my experience mech discs require a click or two every month or so. Not a deal breaker for me.

Rohloff, noisy? Maybe but that's bothersome only for some. Heavy? Yeah kinda but overall not by that much. Draggy? Probably but that's a risk I'm willing to take since apparently those things do get better when broken in properly. And if not I'll gladly take an 'engine brake' for the steeper hills. Beating strava KOM's with a fully loaded tourer is fun but not exactly safe.

But the main advantage of the rohloff is the potential for an absolute monster wheel. Symmetrical lacing is pretty neat.

Wouldn't use a pinion since I'd likely break it by going over the torque limit but it'd probably be nice for people who are a bit lighter and less powerful.

Also people who can afford to tour with a rohloff or pinion probably have enough money in reserve to handle a complete system breakdown and spend a few days in a nice hotel. If we're talking a break down in the middle of nowhere in central khazakstan or someplace like that, a properly cracked shimano freehub body will stop you in your tracks just as surely as a broken rohloff will, except the shimano failure is more probable.

But you didn't address my main point. After which year have all advancements in bicycle technology been rendered useless for bicycle touring specifically?
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Old 08-12-17, 07:21 AM   #23
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Does anyone use e-shifting on touring bikes?
Yes. What's wrong with that?

BTW, I love where this thread is going.
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Old 08-12-17, 08:43 AM   #24
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Not mine, I Boxed up a Trek Domane (Boone similar ) to ship east .. CF, thru axle, DT ** 'skewer'.. did have a Bar Bag Mount on it..


** it aint coming loose accidentally, no way.





....

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Old 08-12-17, 08:49 AM   #25
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Note This : https://www.bikeshophub.com/product/...le-p-3581.html
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