Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-08-17, 06:33 AM   #26
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,656
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3500 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBell View Post
I think this is a pretty cool idea, but a perfect version for me would rotate the bars as the stem moved. Keep the bars always on the same angle but being able to switch the height on the fly... I could see that coming in handy to change positions while riding.
You could do that pretty easily with a parallelogram, somewhat like a derailleur.



However, the OP gains additional lift by rotating the bars upwards.
CliffordK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 07:36 AM   #27
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,656
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3500 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrecumbent View Post
20 runs up a short hill, the one in the video, with bars down, 20 runs bars up. 25 seconds with bars down 24 with bars up. I used an srm Powermeter. a solid second. 4%. I was surprised to see I was using more power with the bars up. I thought I was using less. That's because your comfort level goes up so much.
You'd probably get out of the saddle on a 20% climb. I don't think they exist, unless it's someones driveway.

It started with the black carbon chopper. It felt like I was climbing hills easier and faster than the on the Cannondale. When I rigged the CDale bars up and back to match the seat bar pedal realationship of the chopper, I got the same effect.
That is quite a few runs up the hill, but it is a pretty short hill, and a second isn't a lot of difference. You probably have enough data points to look at the standard deviation and variance. Student T test? It has been a while since I've crunched those types of statistics, but look a the confidence level that the change was significant.

There has been some discussion about weight and bike fit, and that the saddle/bars should be set more or less so that when you apply some torque at the pedals, there is little or no weight on the hands. So a more upright position may be less restrictive on breathing and on the legs, but doesn't necessarily increase the weight on the saddle.

I have been playing around a bit with a recumbent trike lately, and have been surprised at what apparently is a lower average speed, as well as lower hill climb speed (although I haven't achieved optimal gearing yet).

I suppose I need to get a good power meter setup, but I wonder if it is not just weight, but that I also achieve a rounder powerstroke when riding seated on the road bike, and a more pulsing power stroke on the recumbent which tends to put the body in a straighter configuration (more like an upright or standing position).

Most of my hard hill climbs are probably in the 10% to 16% range (I regularly hit a brief 16% segment), but the 20% climbs definitely exist, although usually short. Here is one I encountered in Portland:
https://www.strava.com/segments/3884813
CliffordK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 08:04 AM   #28
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangkok!
Bikes: inferior steel
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 372 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrecumbent View Post
20 runs up a short hill, the one in the video, with bars down, 20 runs bars up. 25 seconds with bars down 24 with bars up. I used an srm Powermeter. a solid second............
excelllllllent!.......but now try some real-world testing, configured for touring.
your hill was what....a couple hundred meters at most....unladen?

put 25-30 pounds in rear bags, and 5 pounds in a handlebar bag.

and then do 20 runs up a 12-14% incline >10km.
saddlesores is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 08:20 AM   #29
Brian25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: Ravello road, mountain and track bikes and tandems. Also Ravello travel trailers.
Posts: 375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
O.K. there is a point where you can be too stretched out, and with a shorter stem you will have better leverage/ biomechanics/ weight on the pedals. If you like the more upright position then all the better.
Brian25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 01:57 PM   #30
BigAura
 
BigAura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chapin, SC
Bikes: all steel stable: surly world troller, paris sport fixed, fuji ss
Posts: 3,165
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
OP: I like your creative engineering!

I'd consider your concept but actually use it in reverse. I'd keep it primarily in the locked-and-upright position with my sweep-back-riser-bars. I'd drop it for days when headwinds are an issue.

I still don't get why so many cycle-tourists are drop bar fans. Except for racing, for which they were designed, drop-bars seem like a total waste. Most non-racers hardly ride in-the-drops. Mustache-type-bars and other flat or slight riser bars are king for touring, IMO.
BigAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 02:04 PM   #31
edthesped
Senior Member
 
edthesped's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Bikes: Huffy Thunder Road
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Isn't there already something like this floating around? Trans-X adjustable stem, though I don't know if they're sold anymore... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=AI815W1WMD729

edthesped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 04:45 PM   #32
roadrecumbent
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
There you go! Nice Tranz-X stem. There's no bar clamping bolt, so the bars must get loose too when the lever is up.

Last edited by roadrecumbent; 09-08-17 at 05:02 PM.
roadrecumbent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 04:55 PM   #33
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,656
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3500 Post(s)
Did we get two parallel threads going? Somehow????

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarch
Except it's not entirely wasted. The energy you use get your upper body higher is returned to the crank when it comes back down. It wouldn't work at all otherwise. The real waste of energy is lateral - the rocking back and forth, and internal strains required to maintain balance and such - because it is in the wrong plane.
I don't believe that is exactly true.

You'll notice when you stand and "rock" the bike, you tend to rock the bike so you lift on the right side at the same time you push down on the right side, effectively reducing the distance the pedal travels by a couple of inches, so that rocking isn't exactly wasted energy, but rather an adaptation to reduce the length of pedal stroke.

I use my road bike for loaded touring, and it is a bit flexy. Within a couple of hours of riding, one quickly learns to hold the bike in a perfect plane while standing and pedaling. It is certainly possible to do.
CliffordK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 05:22 PM   #34
roadrecumbent
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
I shipped this stem to Road Bike Action Magazine today. They may or may not be interested in testing it. Feel free to beg them to. Also, if someone would get the video to their facebook page, I'd appreciate it. I swear, I can't figure out how to do stuff at facebook. If this doesn't get noticed this week, it may never get noticed. I'm not going to make another stem.


IMPORTANT

Last edited by roadrecumbent; 09-08-17 at 06:25 PM.
roadrecumbent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 06:27 PM   #35
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,656
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3500 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrecumbent View Post
There you go! Nice Tranz-X stem. There's no bar clamping bolt, so the bars must get loose too when the lever is up.
It is, however, a design that could be used... the QR could be changed to a place not interfering with the bar clamping.

My guess is that the decision was made to allow the stem to be easily raised AND the bars to be adjusted at the same time.

The parallelogram would also allow the bars orientation to be maintained.
CliffordK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 06:54 PM   #36
roadrecumbent
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Bar orientation is not an issue for me climbing a steep hill, because you are going slow, and you need the bars way up and back for the most bennefit. Comfort isn't an issue because there's no weight on the bars. You can start using the brakes up high while slamming the bars down in an instant, if you need to stop quickly. There's no release lever to push before you can rotate the bars down.

Last edited by roadrecumbent; 09-08-17 at 07:16 PM.
roadrecumbent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-17, 09:31 PM   #37
hermanchauw
Senior Member
 
hermanchauw's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Singapore
Bikes: Voodoo Hoodoo, Peugeot Metro, Omitaya Sogno 111
Posts: 225
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
May i propose to the OP that the problem of climbing hill out of the saddle can be solved by simply lowering your gears.

I ride a cargo bike and can pull a trailer of 40kg+ uphill seated. My lowest gear is 18.75 inch.
hermanchauw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 02:06 AM   #38
elcruxio
Senior Member
 
elcruxio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Turku, Finland, Europe
Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro
Posts: 1,637
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
I still don't get why so many cycle-tourists are drop bar fans. Except for racing, for which they were designed, drop-bars seem like a total waste. Most non-racers hardly ride in-the-drops. Mustache-type-bars and other flat or slight riser bars are king for touring, IMO.
Saying the drop bar is racing specific is like saying the common riser bar is racing specific. Both are used in racing so that proves my point.

The reason drop bars are used in touring is actually the anglicanic way of touring whereas the german and a lot of the other European cultural sphere use butterfly bars or something more basic. This kind of touring is however quite often comfort touring where short day distances are done slowly.

People who go faster and do longer day distances often prefer the drop bar because if fitted right, it just beats all other options out of the water. It's almost impossible to match in versatility, comfort, and functionality.
Moustache bars don't have nearly the same amount of various differing hand positions, nor do they offer the drops, which are actually quite important. The fact that the drops are hardly used doesn't mean they are unnecessary since there is no better way to conduct technical road descents than on the drops. The drops simply offer superior handling and braking ability when compared to any other bar in road context. And they're pretty neat in difficult gravel too.

But I do admit that if the bike is fitted badly and the drop bar / brake lever interface is bad, they can be more of a hardship than one could have imagined. Drop bars are fussy, but when you get them right there is no going back to any other bar type.
elcruxio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 04:16 AM   #39
kbarch 
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Tenafly, NJ
Bikes: Casati Laser La Speciale, Cinelli Vigorelli, Giant Propel Advanced 1, Giant TCX
Posts: 3,030
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 427 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Did we get two parallel threads going? Somehow????


I don't believe that is exactly true.

You'll notice when you stand and "rock" the bike, you tend to rock the bike so you lift on the right side at the same time you push down on the right side, effectively reducing the distance the pedal travels by a couple of inches, so that rocking isn't exactly wasted energy, but rather an adaptation to reduce the length of pedal stroke.

I use my road bike for loaded touring, and it is a bit flexy. Within a couple of hours of riding, one quickly learns to hold the bike in a perfect plane while standing and pedaling. It is certainly possible to do.
Hmm. I don't remember posting in this thread, but...
Energy spent rocking the bike sideways or preventing it from rocking sideways is energy spent not moving it forward. But one might be less inclined to call it wasted energy if it means being more efficient than moving about and carrying oneself on the bike some other way.
kbarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 05:41 AM   #40
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO, Scottsdale, AZ
Bikes: 1996 REI Randonee, 1983 Trek 620
Posts: 1,101
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
...People who go faster and do longer day distances often prefer the drop bar because if fitted right, it just beats all other options out of the water. It's almost impossible to match in versatility, comfort, and functionality....
Absolutely agree, and well said.

For those who ski XC, it's like wax vs waxless. If you can get the wax right, there's no comparison and no going back.
andrewclaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 06:07 AM   #41
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,656
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3500 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrecumbent View Post
I shipped this stem to Road Bike Action Magazine today. They may or may not be interested in testing it. Feel free to beg them to. Also, if someone would get the video to their facebook page, I'd appreciate it. I swear, I can't figure out how to do stuff at facebook. If this doesn't get noticed this week, it may never get noticed. I'm not going to make another stem.
I wouldn't ship a one-off prototype to any magazine without being in good two-way communication with someone at the other end who is expecting to get and test the part, and hopefully return the product when they're through with it.

Hopefully you found someone enthusiastic about the project.
CliffordK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 09:27 AM   #42
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 6,694
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
even if I dont agree with the premise that this will help with a regular bike, an important thing to take into account here is that there is no way in heck that I would trust a moveable stem that takes lots of load at times, and is a crucial part of my safety when descending and cornering at 50, 60, 70, 80kph.

this is a good example of "idea" or "concept" that just doesnt translate into real life, neat idea I guess for the concept aspect of it, but climbing on a properly fitted touring bike (not a racing bike, ie bar/seat drop) just isnt an issue.
djb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 10:29 AM   #43
manapua_man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 877
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by djb View Post
even if I dont agree with the premise that this will help with a regular bike, an important thing to take into account here is that there is no way in heck that I would trust a moveable stem that takes lots of load at times, and is a crucial part of my safety when descending and cornering at 50, 60, 70, 80kph.

this is a good example of "idea" or "concept" that just doesnt translate into real life, neat idea I guess for the concept aspect of it, but climbing on a properly fitted touring bike (not a racing bike, ie bar/seat drop) just isnt an issue.

This.

With the amount of torque I usually put on to a stem/handlebar when actively putting a lot of effort into a climb, I wouldn't trust *any* adjustable stem. I tried one to try figuring out how steep a stem I wanted on a bike when I was in college and nearly ended up in the hospital for it.

Last edited by manapua_man; 09-09-17 at 10:33 AM.
manapua_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 01:32 PM   #44
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Posts: 12,080
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1250 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrecumbent View Post
I just walked into my bathroom and weighed myself - 140. I leaned over with my hands on the sink - 120. This is what I'm saying. You want to put all 140 lbs. on the front pedal, it's 20 lbs of force you don't have to generate with your muscles. It's what you do when you climb out of the saddle- You go to exactly the place that puts the most weight on the front pedal.
I mentioned on the other thread, before it got closed, that on a hard climb I might be in front of the pedals and pulling up on the bars. So your reasoning doesn't compute. That said, I have sometimes wished for higher bars when climbing out of the saddle because my aggressive low bars setup keeps me bent over, which isn't natural for a posture that's more like running.

If this invention doesn't fly because concerns about reliability or creaking, have you considered telescoping the steering tube instead? The mechanism could still be built into the stem, but sliding on splines with some kind of ratchet it could be very solid.
wphamilton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 02:05 PM   #45
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 8,051
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 492 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrecumbent View Post
I just walked into my bathroom and weighed myself - 140. I leaned over with my hands on the sink - 120. This is what I'm saying. You want to put all 140 lbs. on the front pedal, it's 20 lbs of force you don't have to generate with your muscles. It's what you do when you climb out of the saddle- You go to exactly the place that puts the most weight on the front pedal.
To output 300W requires a peak force on the pedals of just over 80lbs which for your weight would be 4.7W/kg. If you can do an extended climb at 4.7W/kg I'd be impressed. Using 120 lbs of peak force you can generate up to about 480W, above that you'll need to start pulling up on the bars.

For the short hill you mentioned many riders might want to sprint up it. Sprinting at 900W and 90RPM will require 245lbs of force on the pedals, i.e. you'll need to be pulling up hard on the bars. If your sprint is only 600W you'll still need more than your bodyweight on the pedals.

It's a cute idea but not necessary or beneficial to most riders.
gregf83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 02:45 PM   #46
BigAura
 
BigAura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chapin, SC
Bikes: all steel stable: surly world troller, paris sport fixed, fuji ss
Posts: 3,165
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
People who go faster and do longer day distances often prefer the drop bar because if fitted right, it just beats all other options out of the water.
I've done plenty of centuries on my uprights. I guess I could have done it faster in aero-position but I'd rather enjoy the scenery vs. the speed and staring at the ground.



To each his own

Last edited by BigAura; 09-09-17 at 02:48 PM.
BigAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 04:04 PM   #47
52telecaster
ambulatory senior
 
52telecaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Bikes: Masi Rando, all city space horse and Bob Jackson World Tour.
Posts: 753
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigaura View Post
i've done plenty of centuries on my uprights. I guess i could have done it faster in aero-position but i'd rather enjoy the scenery vs. The speed and staring at the ground.



to each his own
+100
52telecaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 05:20 PM   #48
roadrecumbent
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
It's off topic but something is on my mind I'd like to share, speaking of safety. When I was a kid learning to ride, I'd try to turn, the front wheel hit my shoe and I couldn't complete the turn that I was alrerady leaned into, the friction slowed the bike so you needed to turn sharper and couldn't and it scared the livin.... I almost crashed more than a couple of times. So you learn to keep your foot out of the way without having to think about it. But the hazard is still there! I was thinking with clip ins, my foot might be back further, but I checked today and it's still a thing.




Anyway, it's not hard to design a fool proof adjustable type stem. Just make it strong and impossible for the pivot bolt to fall out. It will get unacceptably wobbly long before it breaks. Probably hundreds of "moving parts" on a bike if you count ball bearings and chain parts. Here's a good one- my left crank arm came off while I was riding because I forgot to tighten the bolts. The shaft is splined so it didn't even feel loose before it came off. I was climbing at the time and quickly slowing. I had this shiny Dura ace crank hanging from my shoe, so I didn't want to step off the bike onto it. My left side is the side I get off on, but I had to get off on the right which was a steeply slanted drain. I had a digital camera on my helmet, You can't see much but the audio is great.

Last edited by roadrecumbent; 09-09-17 at 06:26 PM.
roadrecumbent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 08:38 PM   #49
elcruxio
Senior Member
 
elcruxio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Turku, Finland, Europe
Bikes: 2011 Specialized crux comp, 2013 Specialized Rockhopper Pro
Posts: 1,637
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 193 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
I've done plenty of centuries on my uprights. I guess I could have done it faster in aero-position but I'd rather enjoy the scenery vs. the speed and staring at the ground.



To each his own
Ah, I see you labour under the false assumption that drop bars somehow require a racing geometry to go with it. There are however plenty of tourists, roadies and long distance riders to prove you otherwise. A drop bar can be fitted like any other bar, ie. to be high and back but it is still the most versatile road bar available. You should try to educate yourself away from silly assumptions like when someone is using an object for activity A, the object becomes locked and can no longer be used in any other activity. Frees the mind and allows for new kinds of creativity
elcruxio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-17, 09:08 PM   #50
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangkok!
Bikes: inferior steel
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 372 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
...the false assumption that drop bars somehow require a racing geometry....
so true. i had my custom-built mercian with touring geometry set up with drops.
rode all over europe, nz, oz....i guess cause that's what all the other tourists were
doing at the time.

but then one day i bought a hybrid. with straight bars. night and day for comfort.
so much better on long days.....did many centuries before i found bar ends even.
works better.......for me.

only better comfy-ish ride i found was a LWB infinity recumbent.
saddlesores is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:27 AM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION