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Old 12-09-05, 04:26 PM   #1
lacarp
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Touring rim questions

I'm in the process of building up a new set of wheels. I do some touring and some recreational riding. I've been looking at Mavic rims with machined sidewalls. It sounds like the A719 is a workhorse for touring, but it might be a more stout and heavy (560 gram) rim than I need. I'd like to be able to use 25 thru 32mm tires. Is there a more medium duty rim in the Mavic line or should I just pull the trigger on the A719's? This is my first post. I joined just to quiz tour brains.
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Old 12-09-05, 05:32 PM   #2
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It depends on what type of "touring" you are looking at doing, sag, creditcard, self-supported or somewhere in between? What is your weight, how much gear will you be or can you see carring? Where will you be touring, smooth asphalt roads or dirt roads, around Minneapolis or other places in the world? Also, consider what type of brakes you will be using or the largest tire width you can mount.

All of these questions should be considered before deciding on what type of rims to build. Also don't just think about the next tour but down the road, what can you see yourself doing in a few years.

Journey On
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Old 12-09-05, 06:18 PM   #3
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Okay, let's see if I can flesh this out for you. Once a year a friend & I load up and ride the 400+ miles from Mpls. to Milwaukee. We camp enroute so all of the gear is there. The actual weight I'd just be guessing at. The route is 80% asphalt and 20% converted railroad bed trails (crushed & packed gravel mix). The largest size tire will be 28 - 32 mm. Outside from that I ride 30 - 100 mile weekend rides without gear. On those occasions I'd be running a 25 - 28mm tire.
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Old 12-09-05, 11:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacarp
Okay, let's see if I can flesh this out for you. Once a year a friend & I load up and ride the 400+ miles from Mpls. to Milwaukee. We camp enroute so all of the gear is there. The actual weight I'd just be guessing at. The route is 80% asphalt and 20% converted railroad bed trails (crushed & packed gravel mix). The largest size tire will be 28 - 32 mm. Outside from that I ride 30 - 100 mile weekend rides without gear. On those occasions I'd be running a 25 - 28mm tire.
Velocity Dyad, 480 gr, 28 to 47 mm tyres
Sun CR18, 470 gr, 25 to 35mm tyres
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Old 12-09-05, 11:26 PM   #5
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There was a similar discussion over in the Bicycle Repair part of the forum and one of the recommended wheels was the Mavic CXP33, which is a very strong deep-V design at 470g.
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Old 12-09-05, 11:30 PM   #6
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Okay, I've looked into both of those rims too. I'm a little uncertain about the Velocity Dyad because the holes do not have eyelet reinforcement and the Sun CR18 does not have a machined braking surface. I REALLY like the idea of a smooth braking surface! My old wheels didn't have that and I think it's a great feature. Maybe I'm just thinking about this too much.
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Old 12-10-05, 01:12 AM   #7
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To put things in perspective the A719 weighs about 80 grams more than an average road rim . The weight of an average banana is about 100 grams. The A719 is a damn good rim.

I have used the venerable Mavic ma3's for years on two of my bikes One set I have is about 10 years old (36h w/105 hubs) and has at least 15,000 miles on them.The MA3 will easily take a 700x30c tire on it's 21mm bead width ,they weigh in about 480g IIRC. The MA3 is still popular for a sturdy rim I think Rivendell still recommends them for Clydesdales
It has a machined braking surface.
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Old 12-10-05, 08:24 AM   #8
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Machine braking surface doesn't mean a dam thing, see: http://yarchive.net/bike/rims.html
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Old 12-10-05, 09:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacarp
Okay, I've looked into both of those rims too. I'm a little uncertain about the Velocity Dyad because the holes do not have eyelet reinforcement and the Sun CR18 does not have a machined braking surface. I REALLY like the idea of a smooth braking surface! My old wheels didn't have that and I think it's a great feature. Maybe I'm just thinking about this too much.
There is good information about the Dyad rims here. The Dyad, and A719 will both be great, The Sun CR18
will also work well, and its half the price. If you are planning on putting a load on the bike I'd stay away
from the MA3 as its not really intended for loaded touring.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/velocity.asp
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Old 12-10-05, 10:38 AM   #10
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My wife has A-719 wheels on her touring bike with 700x37 Continental Travel Contacts. EXCELLENT! We travel on dirt, gravel, and paved surfaces both loaded and unloaded with no thoughts or concerns about tire/wheel dificulties. I am building a set of wheels for her "credit card" tourer and using the Mavic Open Sport that replaced the MA-3 on Ultegra (6500) hubs, DT 2.0-1.8-20 spokes, and 3X. I run tour with Mavic Open Pros and Conti 700x28 with no problems. The 28s are really squirrely on gravel/dirt.
Good Luck and happy touring!
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Old 12-10-05, 10:57 AM   #11
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I followed your link a tried to read all of the info and discussions. I have never seen so much info on the metalurgy and thermodynamics of rims & braking in my life! The author is certainly a fam of Mavic MA2 rims of old. He definitely builds a strong case against hard anodized rims and the need for machined sidewalls. His statements about aluminum rims without reinforcing eyelets gauling from the spoke nipples makes me think twice about the Velocity Dyad rims. The one thing that was lacking was a recommendation for what rims to use that are currently being manufactured. That is really what I'm really after. There seem to be reasons listed for why NOT to use many rims, but an absence of reasons why TO use a specific rim.
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Old 12-10-05, 11:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froze
Machine braking surface doesn't mean a dam thing, see: http://yarchive.net/bike/rims.html
Ok you posted a Google of an endless Rec Bicycles Jobst Brandt prattle about rim strength and MA40 failure. Though I do agree with him on the longterm effects of hard anodizing( that is why I like the MA3 & CR18).
The argument over machining the braking surface has been argued all over the internet for the last 10 years and Jobst seems to be in every argument . The argument centers around how much machining is done on the rim wall. on light rims like for instance the Mavic open pro which has a wall thickness of about 1.5 mm. Machining takes off an average of .5mm though Jobst claims they are inconsistant. Jobst argues it is nothing more than a marketing ploy to make us all buy more rims. Ok

Those people with practical experince are saying the life of the rim is reduced a few thousand miles which they argue is the compromise for the smoother braking action. I and apparently a few other folks are willing to give up a few thousand miles for the smoother braking.
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Old 12-10-05, 09:29 PM   #13
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Go for the A719, you will not be disapointed.
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Old 12-10-05, 11:24 PM   #14
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Is the Sun CR18 really as good as the others, for 50% price?
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Old 12-10-05, 11:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velonomad
Those people with practical experince are saying the life of the rim is reduced a few thousand miles which they argue is the compromise for the smoother braking action. I and apparently a few other folks are willing to give up a few thousand miles for the smoother braking.
I disagree with your assessment on the smoother braking action. A pinned and welded rim if properly done is just as smooth as a machine rim. I ride on Torelli's that are not machined and they stop very smooth as all my other rims that were not machined. The older rims from the early 70's on back needed to be sanded where the joint was to smooth out the joint so the brakes would not grab the joint and cause a unsmooth braking action especially the cheap to medium price rims, most if not all the top of the line ones never needed to presanded! However after time the brakes would eventually smooth out the joint anyway, we sanded them to speed up the process before riding on new rims. Therefore the machining process does nothing except add those record grooves onto the rims and the company can charge more for their rims! And I've owned older Mavic rims before the age of machining and NEVER had issues with their joints causing unsmooth braking which is the very reason Mavic gives in their marketing for going to machining!!! It truly is BS as Jobst pointed out. Most riders today have NEVER rode on a jointed rim so they cannot compare the differences unless they got their hands on a cheap jointed rim that came with a bike as original equipment then they cry they got cheap and rough braking rims.
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Old 12-11-05, 01:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacarp
I followed your link a tried to read all of the info and discussions. I have never seen so much info on the metalurgy and thermodynamics of rims & braking in my life! The author is certainly a fam of Mavic MA2 rims of old. He definitely builds a strong case against hard anodized rims and the need for machined sidewalls. His statements about aluminum rims without reinforcing eyelets gauling from the spoke nipples makes me think twice about the Velocity Dyad rims. The one thing that was lacking was a recommendation for what rims to use that are currently being manufactured. That is really what I'm really after. There seem to be reasons listed for why NOT to use many rims, but an absence of reasons why TO use a specific rim.
Velocity Dyads are a deep V section and are designed to work without eyelets. They are a very tough rim
and will work just as well as the Mavic 719. As for the whole anodizing thing. I'd rather break on a hard anodized surface than on an aluminum oxide coated sutface which is what untreaded aluminum becomes.
If you've ever had a pice of bare aluminum in your hands you'll know that AL is a reactive metal and constantly fornms and sheds an oxide layer. Bare AL needs to be passivated, bring on the anodizing!
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Old 12-11-05, 01:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacarp
I followed your link a tried to read all of the info and discussions. I have never seen so much info on the metalurgy and thermodynamics of rims & braking in my life! The author is certainly a fam of Mavic MA2 rims of old. He definitely builds a strong case against hard anodized rims and the need for machined sidewalls. His statements about aluminum rims without reinforcing eyelets gauling from the spoke nipples makes me think twice about the Velocity Dyad rims. The one thing that was lacking was a recommendation for what rims to use that are currently being manufactured. That is really what I'm really after. There seem to be reasons listed for why NOT to use many rims, but an absence of reasons why TO use a specific rim.
Sun CR18, Velocity Dyad, Mavic 719. All will workk for touring, all are excellent. Buy one and ride. Make sure you have a good hub though.........
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Old 12-11-05, 01:55 AM   #18
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I like the A719's. I am a big rider and I ride the A719's year round with no problems. Great rim for the money. I ride on tires ranging from 700x25 - 700x37.
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Old 12-11-05, 09:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by froze
I disagree with your assessment on the smoother braking action. A pinned and welded rim if properly done is just as smooth as a machine rim. I ride on Torelli's that are not machined and they stop very smooth as all my other rims that were not machined. The older rims from the early 70's on back needed to be sanded where the joint was to smooth out the joint so the brakes would not grab the joint and cause a unsmooth braking action especially the cheap to medium price rims, most if not all the top of the line ones never needed to presanded! However after time the brakes would eventually smooth out the joint anyway, we sanded them to speed up the process before riding on new rims. Therefore the machining process does nothing except add those record grooves onto the rims and the company can charge more for their rims! And I've owned older Mavic rims before the age of machining and NEVER had issues with their joints causing unsmooth braking which is the very reason Mavic gives in their marketing for going to machining!!! It truly is BS as Jobst pointed out. Most riders today have NEVER rode on a jointed rim so they cannot compare the differences unless they got their hands on a cheap jointed rim that came with a bike as original equipment then they cry they got cheap and rough braking rims.
The original wheels that I built 24 years ago were based on Super Champion 27" rims and Sun Tour Superbe hubs using 14 guage zinc plated spokes. In those 24 years I estimate that I put over 20,000 miles on those wheels and I never had a broken spoke. Those rims were welded but definitely not machined. It took several years using the brakes to smooth things down. At this point, I could be drawn either way on the machining issue. The thought of new wheels with a seamless, smooth application of the brakes sounds mighty appealing. But the thought of a smooth non-machined surface would thrill me just as well. But short of finding someones' old stock of Mavic MA2's that pre-date the advent of "Marketing" (with a capital "M") in bicycle components, where does one find such a rim today? If I wasn't switching to 700c wheels & components I think I'd keep my old wheels!
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Old 12-11-05, 09:29 AM   #20
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IMHO, I wouldn't even THINK about building a set of touring wheels these days without a deep-V rim. Eyelets are preferable, but if my choice was between deep-V rims with no eyelets and box rims with eyelets, there is no comparison - deep-V all the way.

Why? I'm glad you asked... In my experience, deep-V rims go out of round and go out of true much less than any box rims I've ever owned - even with the exact same number of spokes on both pairs! The deep-V profile seems to provide a MUCH stronger and more robust wheel, all other factors being equal.

For touring, I WANT that extra strength and durability. Your money, your choice - but for me, it's deep-V all the way.

Last edited by FarHorizon; 12-11-05 at 09:29 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-11-05, 02:28 PM   #21
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By the way, the Torelli rims are so well made the joint never needed sanding...this is the way all top level rims are made.
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Old 12-11-05, 03:11 PM   #22
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Old 12-11-05, 11:11 PM   #23
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Can anyone chime in here with suggestions for 26" rims for touring/commuting. Will be using XT disc hubs(no debating the merrits of discs and touring, pls. been der, done dat). I am thinking about Mavic 719 or 519 or Velocity DeepV or VXC. Wuold like to get a rim without the braking surface. Tires will be Specialized 1.5 Nimbus or Schwalbe Marathon XR 2.0.

Whatchyoo think?
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Old 12-12-05, 12:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacarp
I'm in the process of building up a new set of wheels. I do some touring and some recreational riding. I've been looking at Mavic rims with machined sidewalls. It sounds like the A719 is a workhorse for touring, but it might be a more stout and heavy (560 gram) rim than I need. I'd like to be able to use 25 thru 32mm tires. Is there a more medium duty rim in the Mavic line or should I just pull the trigger on the A719's? This is my first post. I joined just to quiz tour brains.
For what it is worth. Built up a set of A719 rims and a set of DT swiss 7.1 rims.A719 are on my pothole commuter special. The 7.1's are used on the same route when I am running late.
Both were close to round to start, but the DT's were rounder and flatter (rim was more in plane.) DT's are a bit lighter, and on speedgoat.com cheaper.
Personally I think the dt's are the better rim, but neither is a bad choice. Both are bombproof. pull the trigger. Pick one.
Tire size depending on season 23 to 38. Currently fat schwalbe snow studs on the dt rims.
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Old 12-12-05, 04:25 PM   #25
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First of all, I'd like to thank those that offered their valued opinions. Like most things, not everyone agrees on rims and a lot of it is based on personal experience. I found a website that had the best price on the Campy alloy seatpost that I wanted and the best price I could find on Mavic A719 rims. So I jumped in and bought the both of them.

My rationale was this on the rims; I decided that I would stay away from hard anodized rims, but I wanted ones that had eyelet reinforcement. I'm decidedly neutral on the machining of the sidewalls. Both sides of that street have viable logic. But noone was able to point me towards a rim that was not anodized, had eyelets and had smooth non-machined high quality surface sidewalls.

So there! I feel I did my due diligence (with your help). Thanks for you input folks!! Like the old saying goes, "You pays your money and you takes your chances!"
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