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  1. #1
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    Wise to tour w/Rohloff in undeveloped countries?

    I'm aware of the positives that you get with a Rohloff, but if i'm touring and it breaks down, it's so complicated that there's no way in heck i'll be able to fix it nor 99.9% of the mechanics i might find. So I think it goes against my principle of simplicity when out in nowheresland.
    At least with a rear derailleur i can fix most problems myself or worst case remove it and go singlespeed until i reach civilization.
    Do you have a counter argument?

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    The usual counter argument is that it almost never fail... Thorn bikes are now equiped with Rohloff and they are quite serious tour bike builders.

    I've never seen a rohloff and I am very curious about them... They do look very complicated!

  3. #3
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    Because the unit is sealed, it is probably less likely to fail than an external derailleur. It's also protected from crashes and other blows. You might ask the manufacturer if there are any common failure modes that cause the unit to disengage the cog from the axle as opposed to becoming a singlespeed or restricted shifting. I suspect that most failure modes cause problems shifting and that the unit will almost always transfer power to the rear wheel.

    In the worst case, you could probably get a singlespeed wheel or have a bike mechanic lace a singlespeed hub to your rim so you could ride singlespeed until you send your hub off for service. But I suspect the likelihood is awfully small of this being necessary.

    Of course, the absolute worst case is you take a bus to the nearest major city and fly home.

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    I saw the following on a Bike Friday webpage:

    "THE ROHLOFF HUB: We used the Rohloff hubs for a while. It's a marvel of engineering, but most of our customers found it to be more hassle than it was worth. The Rohloff is heavy, a little noisy, and rough in some gears (even after break-in and oil change). It has a small proprietary cable that likes to break with Bike Fridays because it's put under too much strain by the long and tortuous path of the cables. The Rohloff uses a push-pull two cable system, so the friction is doubled. Another issue is that the oil likes to leak out of the hub when you put it on an airplane because of the pressure change."

    I don't have any personal experience with them, however.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    I think you would be hard pressed to find someone to fix a Rohloff even in the most devoloped parts of the world. As best as I understand, when a Rohloff fails you send it back to Rohloff to be fixed.

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    1. The rohloff is heavier than the equivalent parts it replaces (no r. der, no f. der, lighter crank, shorter chain length, no cassette, fewer spokes, and still overall weight gain).

    2. You still have to lube chain regularly even with Rohloff hub. This is the primary maint required in a bicycle drivetrain. So the rohloff hub saves you time? money? dirty hands? i dunno. it eliminates 2 der and changes a triple crank to a single. shorter chain. stronger rear wheel due to dish. need odd rim to build wheel (isnt it 20 spokes or some other unusual drill pattern?). I can see how the R hub would be advantageous in constant heavy mud conditions. Maybe you would routinely encounter this in really wet "undeveloped countries" with few paved roads.

    3. I have read in other forums that the R hub has 2 of the 14 gears where there is pronounced friction. The rohloff hub is less efficient at power transmission than std der system overall. So more effort to pedal in the long run. added friction feels something like riding constantly with the chain on the big ring and big cog (according to some experienced users' comments).

    4. you have to accomodate those dual cable/housing, which you can't route thru normal cable bosses, so it'll fit/look funny. replaces 2 derailer cables so its even trade weight wise. almost need a custom frame to do this part right. theyre kind of an ugly retrofit. wont fit standard dropouts without torque arm attached to chainstay. choice of integral drum, disc capable or no brake.

    5. i haven't heard of oil leak problems. i believe they have 2 viscosities to accomodate temp changes. very long interval bwtween changes (years for most users).

    6. something you dont hear much of, but those 14 gears covering 526% range in equal steps (i doing this from memory so may be sl. wrong) means each gear increments 38%. this seems like a problem to me. when you shift from 12t cog to 13t it changed 8%. 14t to 15t is 7%. 38% steps are ~ equivalent to shifting from 12t to 17t with nothing in between. 25t to 34t is 38%. sorta big jumps. cassettes ar not linear change because its not the best way to gear the bike. you need fine steps at high cadence.

    7. a rohloff hub by itself costs about what a week long caribbean cruise costs, if you shop carefully. add a bike to support it and it becomes very expensive propositon. this money could possibly be better invested to say, double your time on vacation/holiday. or give it to a soup kitchen. i bet that buys a heluvalotta soup. i estimate you'd have to get ~100,000 miles out of a rohloff hub for its cost to be less than the equivalent of derailers, chains, chainrings and cassettes (i'm assuming a rohloff costs 1,000 usd)

    i've never had any significant der problems using shimano lx and xt. i have an xt rear with 18K miles, still works fine. i've gone thru several cables that fatigue and fray at sharp bend points at shifter (grip shift) and front der (short radius arm at clamp). deraillers usually work fine provided you clean and lube regularly. a rohloff is less likely to leave you stranded due to collision with a rock or tree limb (bend/break rear der). and far more likely to leave you stranded when its unusual grip shfter or weird cables break.

    you can buy shim parts from shops all over the world. you can buy rohloff parts from shops in la & sf CA, germany and...

    IMO for most bicyclists, rohloff hub appears to be a solution without a problem.

    aebike dot com used to sell rohoffs for $750 a few years back before they got popular, may still have good price. go to mtbr dot com and search fourums for more info, they are far more popular with off roaders.

  7. #7
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    I mentioned many of those points on the Cycling+ forum and was jumped all over by guys pointing out all the race teams that used them and so forth. Quite an earfull, but it did give me a sense that this is a seriously respected piece of gear by folks who actually own them. having lived over there, you don't rock climb, cycle, whatever, much if you aren't willing to do it in a permanent condition of rain. I know one place in Northern Ireland,where it rained over 365 days in a row some while ago. So if I had to guess I would guess it's appeal has something to do with wet conditions, but who knows.

    I was on again off again about Rohloff, but realistically unless I was so hard pressed in wanting it that I had been trying to invent something like it just to solve every day problems, I don't know why I would bother. Until I heard it existed I never knew I would need it.

    The local bike shop has one for 1250, and it is a huge piece of metal, it really looks enormous and heavy moreso than the picture, get one in black if you go this route. It might be an older model. It would be a lot easier to just carry an extra der.

    I had heard about the earlier hubs leaking, but it may be a problem they have fixed.

    If thieves ever figure out that there are 1000 dollar hubs...

    Only 32 spoke. Some Phil or DT hubs in 36 or more spokes probably solve more troubles, with prices starting at 100 dollars. While people are always talking about this hub for extreme conditions, how extreme can they be if they are getting away with 32 spoke hubs. They might be extreme with some guy mashing who weighs 140, but not some strong guy weighing 240, with 100 pounds of gear. The lack of dish is an advantage, but there are options for that with other hubs, I got the feelin just looking at the hub that the flange width wasn't all that wonderful, anyone know if it is actually equal length spokes and same width one would have without the cluster? Anyway, they make 160mm tandem hubs if you're really in need of some spoke width.

    Check out the C+ forum there seem to be a lot of users there.

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    Some valid points, but also some misinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker333
    2. You still have to lube chain regularly even with Rohloff hub. This is the primary maint required in a bicycle drivetrain. So the rohloff hub saves you time? money? dirty hands? i dunno. it eliminates 2 der and changes a triple crank to a single. shorter chain. stronger rear wheel due to dish. need odd rim to build wheel (isnt it 20 spokes or some other unusual drill pattern?). I can see how the R hub would be advantageous in constant heavy mud conditions. Maybe you would routinely encounter this in really wet "undeveloped countries" with few paved roads.
    The Rohloff only comes in 32 holes, but since its dishless then that's not a problem. Also, cleaning a single chainring and sprocket is significantly quicker and easier than a triple and cassette and derailer.

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker333
    4. you have to accomodate those dual cable/housing, which you can't route thru normal cable bosses, so it'll fit/look funny. replaces 2 derailer cables so its even trade weight wise. almost need a custom frame to do this part right. theyre kind of an ugly retrofit. wont fit standard dropouts without torque arm attached to chainstay. choice of integral drum, disc capable or no brake.
    Rohloffs only make sense with a frame intended for a Rohloff such as the frames by Thorn.

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker333
    6. something you dont hear much of, but those 14 gears covering 526% range in equal steps (i doing this from memory so may be sl. wrong) means each gear increments 38%. this seems like a problem to me. when you shift from 12t cog to 13t it changed 8%. 14t to 15t is 7%. 38% steps are ~ equivalent to shifting from 12t to 17t with nothing in between. 25t to 34t is 38%. sorta big jumps. cassettes ar not linear change because its not the best way to gear the bike. you need fine steps at high cadence.
    The equal steps are 13.6%, not 38%. You've obvioulsy just divided 526 by 14, which is meaningless. The step from gear to gear on a Rohloff is just fine, and the steps are easily small enough to maintain high cadence.

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker333
    you can buy shim parts from shops all over the world. you can buy rohloff parts from shops in la & sf CA, germany and...
    In developing countries you can't usually buy shimano parts, or indeed any quality bike bits.


    I suggest that you read this:

    http://www.sjscycles.com/thornwebsit...thARohloff.pdf

    A review of the Rohloff hub by someone that actually knows about them and he points out both the good and the bad. I'm still undecided as to wether the advantages of the hub outweigh its problems, but undoubtedly they are a great bit of kit for some people. Not for everyone though and if you're happy with your derailer then no-ones gonna force you to buy one!

  9. #9
    Senior Member onbike 1939's Avatar
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    I've had one and rapidly became addicted as it makes gear-shifting so easy that you fail to be aware you're doing it after a while.
    As for the reliability issue, Rohloff state that in ten years of production not one of their hubs has suffered mechanical failure. It is true however that if the hub did fail you are required to send it back to Germany although I believe their service is second to none.

  10. #10
    Caffeinated. Camel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bokes
    I'm aware of the positives that you get with a Rohloff, but if i'm touring and it breaks down, it's so complicated that there's no way in heck i'll be able to fix it nor 99.9% of the mechanics i might find. So I think it goes against my principle of simplicity when out in nowheresland.
    At least with a rear derailleur i can fix most problems myself or worst case remove it and go singlespeed until i reach civilization.
    Do you have a counter argument?
    The counter argument would be:

    What about those deraileur problems you can't fix?

    -Bent der hanger snaps when bending it back.

    -Der gets shoved into spokes while moving (ie if bent hanger was never noticed). Ouch, double problem.

    -Der cage splits open, losing those little wheels (happens).

    -Der wheel cracks losing teeth (happens).

    -Der bearing fails.

    -Front der splits, no longer shifts (less of a "catastrophe"- can still shift manualy).

    -Broken spokes due to a weaker wheel build (for the conditions). Some builders state that a 26" rohloff wheel is stronger than a 48 spoke with the same rim.

    -Chain jumps into spokes (limit stop not adjusted properly), ping ping there go a bunch of spokes.

    Mind that I'm not a Rohloff owner, just playing "devil's advocate".

    I bought a Phil Wood Velocity Dyad wheelset w/48 triple & double butted spokes for my upcoming tour. Built by a master builder, the price for the wheels alone aproach that of a Rohloff (mine are 700c though). Add in the cost of the other drive train parts which I will be replacing more frequently and 26" rohloff would have been the better choice (for me, for my tour). I didn't want to invest in another frame though (getting fit, plus the expense).

    I'd submitt that you could get greater than twice the life out of a Rohloff chain (compared to an 8/9 spd setup), because you could use a "better" single speed chain with a straight line. Carrying a spare sprocket, as well as a spare front ring and chain would weigh less than a spare cassette & chain (cost much less too).

    Isn't shifting all one hand with the Rohloff? I mean I'd never have to worry about putting my beer in a cage and spilling some...




    [edited] Some spelling, puncuation.
    mmmm coffeee!

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  11. #11
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    If it's good enough for Tilmann then it's good enough for me. http://www.tilmann.com/en/sponsoren.php

  12. #12
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    Since there is no cassette or cogs to remove, is it easier to change broken spokes on a rohloff wheel?

  13. #13
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    Would you tour on a Shimano hub? Most would without reservation yet the pawls failing in the freehub body is not uncommon.

    The Rohloff is a serious bit of metal. If you ever have the chance to see one opened up, do so. Magnificent. Catastrophic failure is not an option.

    As mentioned earlier, the only weak point is the shifter and cables. Any serious tourist should have a cable or two in their kit. But worst case, I am sure that anybody with rudimentary metalworking skills and a metal file/leatherman (or cash) could manage to adapt a regular cable (or have it done for them). I have seen a picture of a replacement Rohloff twist grip fashioned out of wood even.

    Yes, Rohloff is typical tetutonic overkill. But they have solved a plethora of weaknesses in a conventional drive chain. People need to stop imagining succesively worse case scenarios every time new technology comes up and judge a system by its merits.

    Otherwise we would still be riding round on lugged steel bikes with cantilever brakes and waxed cotton panniers......

  14. #14
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camel
    The counter argument would be:

    What about those deraileur problems you can't fix?

    -Bent der hanger snaps when bending it back.

    -Der gets shoved into spokes while moving (ie if bent hanger was never noticed). Ouch, double problem.

    -Der cage splits open, losing those little wheels (happens).

    -Der wheel cracks losing teeth (happens).

    -Der bearing fails.

    -Front der splits, no longer shifts (less of a "catastrophe"- can still shift manualy).

    -Broken spokes due to a weaker wheel build (for the conditions). Some builders state that a 26" rohloff wheel is stronger than a 48 spoke with the same rim.

    -Chain jumps into spokes (limit stop not adjusted properly), ping ping there go a bunch of spokes.

    Mind that I'm not a Rohloff owner, just playing "devil's advocate".

    I bought a Phil Wood Velocity Dyad wheelset w/48 triple & double butted spokes for my upcoming tour. Built by a master builder, the price for the wheels alone aproach that of a Rohloff (mine are 700c though). Add in the cost of the other drive train parts which I will be replacing more frequently and 26" rohloff would have been the better choice (for me, for my tour). I didn't want to invest in another frame though (getting fit, plus the expense).

    I'd submitt that you could get greater than twice the life out of a Rohloff chain (compared to an 8/9 spd setup), because you could use a "better" single speed chain with a straight line. Carrying a spare sprocket, as well as a spare front ring and chain would weigh less than a spare cassette & chain (cost much less too).

    Isn't shifting all one hand with the Rohloff? I mean I'd never have to worry about putting my beer in a cage and spilling some...




    [edited] Some spelling, puncuation.
    Your points are correct. There are lots of unrecoverable bike failure modes that will stop you, no matter where you happen to be. Rim failure, spoke failure, BB lockup, frame or fork damage either from fatigue or crash, handlbar or stem failure, etc. some of these are more eaily dealt with than others depending on where you are in the world, but consider this:

    Where do you get a presta tube in rural India? Can you get a shrader valve tube in Egypt? Will your rims take a Dunlop valve? Do you even know what a Dunlop valve is? According to Schwalbe, the Dunlop valve is the most common worldwide! Is your pump compatible with one?

  15. #15
    Senior Member onbike 1939's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by radical_edward
    Would you tour on a Shimano hub? Most would without reservation yet the pawls failing in the freehub body is not uncommon.

    The Rohloff is a serious bit of metal. If you ever have the chance to see one opened up, do so. Magnificent. Catastrophic failure is not an option.

    As mentioned earlier, the only weak point is the shifter and cables. Any serious tourist should have a cable or two in their kit. But worst case, I am sure that anybody with rudimentary metalworking skills and a metal file/leatherman (or cash) could manage to adapt a regular cable (or have it done for them). I have seen a picture of a replacement Rohloff twist grip fashioned out of wood even.

    Yes, Rohloff is typical tetutonic overkill. But they have solved a plethora of weaknesses in a conventional drive chain. People need to stop imagining succesively worse case scenarios every time new technology comes up and judge a system by its merits.

    Otherwise we would still be riding round on lugged steel bikes with cantilever brakes and waxed cotton panniers......
    WTF.....I'm still riding around on lugged steel bikes with cantilever brakes and waxed cotton panniers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supcom
    Where do you get a presta tube in rural India? Can you get a shrader valve tube in Egypt? Will your rims take a Dunlop valve? Do you even know what a Dunlop valve is? According to Schwalbe, the Dunlop valve is the most common worldwide! Is your pump compatible with one?
    I'd assume that any rim that will take a shrader valve tube will also take a Dunlop, so in answer to that question, well yes my bike (and most bikes with quality rims) will take a tube with a Dunlop valve (I think).

    And I remember once stopping to pump a guys tyre up in Tanzania with my Topeak Master Blaster. Think it was Dunlop valve (wasn't Shrader or Presta) and it definitely worked.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by amaferanga
    Some valid points, but also some misinformation.

    The equal steps are 13.6%, not 38%. You've obvioulsy just divided 526 by 14, which is meaningless. The step from gear to gear on a Rohloff is just fine, and the steps are easily small enough to maintain high cadence.
    Thanks for clearly this up for me. You have to multiply those %, not add them (ie 1.13y14=~526). I've been wondering why these "big gear jumps" weren't more of an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by axolotl
    I saw the following on a Bike Friday webpage:

    "THE ROHLOFF HUB: We used the Rohloff hubs for a while. It's a marvel of engineering, but most of our customers found it to be more hassle than it was worth. The Rohloff is heavy, a little noisy, and rough in some gears (even after break-in and oil change). It has a small proprietary cable that likes to break with Bike Fridays because it's put under too much strain by the long and tortuous path of the cables. The Rohloff uses a push-pull two cable system, so the friction is doubled. Another issue is that the oil likes to leak out of the hub when you put it on an airplane because of the pressure change."

    I don't have any personal experience with them, however.
    So the truth finally comes out and by a very reputable company.

    The Rohloff is heavy. That's all you need to know right then and there. My Nexus 7 hub bicycle (Bianchi Milano) was very inefficient due to the weight on that rear wheel. None of my bicycles were as inefficient as that Milano including my 3 speed Dahon Piccolo! I can just imagine how heavy that rear wheel must be with an even heavier hub from Rohloff! That "rough" feeling in some gears is a well document aspect of the hub gears and it doesn't matter if it's Sturmey Archer, Shimano or Sram. After a while, that "crunchy" feeling is murder during a long time in the saddle. The noise and oil problems are minor in my opinion but the inefficient hub that weights down the back of the bicycle is unexceptable as Bike Friday owners found out.

    I will say that my Nexus 7 Superfly with 700 cc wheels did feel more efficient than my 26' inch wheel Milano. In fact, I believe the Rohloff would actually fair better but then you might not want to tour with it.
    Last edited by Dahon.Steve; 06-12-06 at 12:16 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by onbike 1939
    WTF.....I'm still riding around on lugged steel bikes with cantilever brakes and waxed cotton panniers.
    Exactly. Tourists are the most conservative of cyclists as far as their gear goes.

    The rohloff is a nice bit of kit overall, but the main problem is price. I don't know how they could make it cheaper and maintain the quality. It is laughable to compare it to the nexus etc. As far as servicing goes, it is trivial to remove the center core with all the gears, flush it out and replace with a light machine oil.

    No, my bike will not be sprting one soon. But if I was rolling anywhere where a breakdown might be fatal, then Rohloff would be top of my list

  20. #20
    Senior Member geoffs's Avatar
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    I recently met Karen and Ben in Sydney and had a bit of a chat to them as they were on a tandem and we also tour by tandem. They were using a Rohloff hub and they did have a problem with the hub flange cracking when they were in Bolivia. They contacted Rohloff via email and a new rear hub was shipped to them in only three days. Ben was very happy with the hubs performance.
    They were also using Hope Disc brakes with braided steel lines and had only had to change the pads once in 20,000kms of cycling. Considering they were towing a trailer as well as 4 panniers that is pretty good recomendation. A single touring bike will not exert anything like the load of a tandem on components.

    Cheers

    Geoff

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    I suggest that if you own a rohloff hub and are doing touring in area's where a breakdown could be a dangerous situation, do the following. Take a sprocket, and drill it out so that it can be fitted to the disc flange on the other side of the hub. Then you turn the wheel around and you have a fixed gear bike
    Live simply so others may simply live

  22. #22
    Senior Member sanford_w/o_son's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterpan1
    I had heard about the earlier hubs leaking, but it may be a problem they have fixed.
    not yet, according to their faq. doesn't seem ideal for flying and touring.

    http://www.rohloff.de/en/info/faq/fa...284/index.html

    "Transportation of the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14
    <!--StartFragment -->If transporting a bike fitted with a Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14, care should be taken that the rear wheel is transported in an upright position. In a car or an aeroplane, there could be great changes in the air temperature/pressure.

    When the wheel lies on its side, oil could seep out of the seals because the oil is sitting directly over these seals on either the left or the right side. Transportation in the upright position will prevent the air temperature/pressure in having an effect over the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14.

    If it is not possible to transport the wheel in the upright position due to according packaging requirements, don't worry. The leakage of oil will not cause any damage."

    general touring info:

    http://www.rohloff.de/en/info/faq/fa...290/index.html

    "Info for the tour
    The Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14 has proved from the start that it is the optimum gear system, especially for tours and long journeys due to its durability, long life and the strength of the final wheel itself.


    Of course, good materials should always be used, so that the other parts on the bike start out not ruined, dirty, over lubricated, worn, so that their function is impaired or even damaged. Therefore, we suggest that in regard to poor parts on the bike you should always carry a few important tools with you.
    Our service team is on the net and you can Email us. We endeaver to help with any technical problems and, when neccessary, ship spare parts out all over the world. However, due to extremely high postage costs or lack of service in some countries, this is not always possible. For this reason you should take into consideration carrying spare parts (in case of accident damage or excessive wear), the handbook and also a range of tools along for the tour.

    Tools for on the go:


    2mm allen key (male/female connectors, cable pulley screws)
    2.5mm allen key (twist shifter securing screws)
    3mm allen key (drain screw)
    5mm allen key (securing bolts for torque arm/chain tensioner)
    8mm wrench (for turning the shifting rod)
    15mm wrench (for axle nuts where applicable)
    Chain lubricant and grease
    Torx TX20 (all other bolts of the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14)
    For long distance journeys the following should also be taken along:


    Oil change kit (Art.Nr. 8410)
    Sprocket tool (Art.Nr. 8501)
    Spare chain and sprocket
    Spare spokes
    Spare shifter cables
    Internal gear mech: spare hub cables (Art.Nr. 8271) or the complete axle ring set (Art.Nr. 8572)

    Emergency repairs on the go

    Several repairs can be improvised in case of emergencies
    Breaking of a hub cable (internal gear mech):
    Remove the axle plate and the cable pulley, then with an 8mm wrench select a suitable gear (ex. gear #7). Riding further is now possible using this one gear.

    Breaking of a shifter cable (internal gear mech):
    Pull a hub cable until a suitable gear is found (eg gear #7). Riding further is now possible using this one gear.

    Male or female connector lost or damaged (internal gear mech):
    Join the hub cable and the shifter cable together with the use of an electric cable connector or binding wire.

    Breaking of a shifter cable (external gear mech):
    Remove the cable box and use an 8mm wrench select a suitable gear (eg gear #7). Riding further is now possible using this one gear.

    Safety ring (and pin) of the quick release on the torque arm (where applicable):
    Use an M6 nut and bolt or improvise by using binding wire.

    Loss of oil:
    Loss of oil through sweat oil or the light leakage of oil through the seals is harmless. Therefore, travelling further until the next oil change (at 5000km intervals) is possible.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
    Last edited by sanford_w/o_son; 06-12-06 at 11:38 AM.

  23. #23
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    I like my Rohloff hub. It's a solid piece of easy shifting. Go get one. I recommend it.

  24. #24
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    "If it's good enough for Tilmann then it's good enough for me"

    I know what you mean, but there was quite a bit of his gear I didn't particularly like. A lot of this stuff is personal, or in the case of pros, professional. Probably still a good choice for what he was doing.

    I would use it if the conditions were really dirty. On the road in reasonable conditions I think Ds work great. But if one was touring in areas with a lot of washed out roads etc... I could see the advantage to a sealed hub. Otherwise efficiency rules.

    It could be cheaper if it was made in china, Knowing bike markers it could well be and it would still say made in Germany. Though in this case I'm sure it isn't yet.

    It's just tough to complete a saw off when the product works worse and costs more by a huge factor than the nearest competition. Against that one has the durability and service issues. It 's a pretty clear but not decisive choice.

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